Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka, American Cosmic’s Breakaway Civilization |417|

don;t blame me blame Vallee:
Vallee and Davis Physics of High Strangeness Porto ... - Jacques Vallee



nice. thx for this.

so:
do voodoo practitioners have life reviews during their NDEs? do they create better than the creator gods? is the left-hand path ok?
Alex,
I don't know much of anything about their NDEs, but they do have them. In fact they have a lot of concerns about the souls of the recently departed and they fear mischief that they might cause.

I like the beats, rhythm and singing. The dancing is pretty good too.

The spiritual side looks effective enough, but primitive, dark and a little dangerous.

So I guess you see the value of Christianity and Western civ? We could go to some very un-PC places with this, you know. Diversity is our strength when they bring their devils with them?

Voodoo is another reason that I think we are creating the gods by giving a name to the spiritual energy bandwidths we tune into. And why I do not think the being of light is a god of everything; just a positive wavelength that can be followed within the human psychic domain.
 
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And why I do not think the being of light is a god of everything; just a positive wavelength that can be followed within the human psychic domain.
This is what I tend to believe also. Especially since (through limited data and study) it seems as if non-westerners may not be having this experience of this all living and powerful benevolent being during their NDEs. Much more study is needed though. But even if it could be shown that non-westerners have this experience, can we really be sure that we and/or the experiencers are interpreting the experience in the right way? It’s a super complicated thing to try and figure out. There’s much to consider. In the other thread with David Sunfellow (was that his name?) I was arguing that this light might might be our “higher selves” which so many experiencers in different areas of STEs speak about, or it might be something like the collective consciousness being manifested in front of us. Then again, you could call that God if you wanted, and we could then split hairs on what “God” means. But it wouldn’t be the same as the popular God archetype of Western culture.
 
This is what I tend to believe also. Especially since (through limited data and study) it seems as if non-westerners may not be having this experience of this all living and powerful benevolent being during their NDEs. Much more study is needed though. But even if it could be shown that non-westerners have this experience, can we really be sure that we and/or the experiencers are interpreting the experience in the right way? It’s a super complicated thing to try and figure out. There’s much to consider. In the other thread with David Sunfellow (was that his name?) I was arguing that this light might might be our “higher selves” which so many experiencers in different areas of STEs speak about, or it might be something like the collective consciousness being manifested in front of us. Then again, you could call that God if you wanted, and we could then split hairs on what “God” means. But it wouldn’t be the same as the popular God archetype of Western culture.
Wormwood,
Right on all accounts. I'm with your assessment.

My point in bringing up the voodoo religion goes slightly farther; maybe - their gods are pretty mundane (not to mention dark in several cases) and unique to their isolated culture. Yet they can thoroughly "possess" people, produce paranormal phenomena, etc. There is "evidence" that these gods are "real". So this would seem to be some kind of synthesis of archetypical psychic forces by the latent creative powers of the human mind/spirit complex. Perhaps that's all there is to much of what we call "reality" and the afterlife, etc. Perhaps the being of light is just that as well. Why should it be different?

Now I do think that tuning into the being of light and what it represents is superior in terms of improving the human condition. "Are ye not gods". Are we not capable of using our creative psychic power and free will to build ourselves a better spiritual (and physical world)? Is the physical not a reflection of the spiritual?

This is why I object to the idea that "alien" intelligences are doing things to us (apologies to Alex since he's just repeating what he gets from Jacques Vallee). It seems to me that, for some reason, accepting that we are responsible for the world we inhabit, whether this one or the next or the next, is one of the hardest things for people to do. Most want it to be on someone or something else; god, aliens, power brokers in a conspiracy......whatever it takes to turn away from our own power. I guess personal accountability is a bitch.
 
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we are creating the gods by giving a name to the spiritual energy bandwidths we tune into. And why I do not think the being of light is a god of everything; just a positive wavelength that can be followed within the human psychic domain.
ok, but aren't you just kinda passing the buck? I mean, it's a bit like the "turtles all the way down" explanation... "so there's this higher bandwidth and above that there's this higher bandwidth and above that there's this higher bandwidth..."
 
This is what I tend to believe also. Especially since (through limited data and study) it seems as if non-westerners may not be having this experience of this all living and powerful benevolent being during their NDEs.
what data are you referencing:

What makes near-death experiences similar across cultures? L-O-V-E |265|
Alex Tsakiris: When you look at contemporary near-death experience accounts, overwhelmingly, what these people say [is that] it’s about love. It’s about this indescribable, but universally relatable, feeling of love. That’s what it’s about. That does seem to come through universally, and I think that has a strong moral kind-of message behind it. How does that relate to what you’re finding cross-culturally. Does it fit or does it not fit?

Dr. Gregory Shushan: I think it does in some ways. In a lot of Native American accounts, people were sent back in order to tell others about the glories of the afterlife. There are also many accounts where some kind of traditional ritual has changed, often for the better – against sacrifice for example, because during the experience the person was given a new belief or ritual and told that the old one has to change. There might not always be specifically “love” as an explicit concept expressed in these texts, but there is often change for the better. The afterlife is seen as a place of wisdom, and a place of renewal, where people undergo purification and ritual bathing. So I think it can be related, even if the word “love” or a comparable word isn’t always used.
 
This is why I object to the idea that "alien" intelligences are doing things to us...
forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse, but it seems that as long as we're playing this game ( scientific method... Reason based thinking) then you have to offer evidence to support your theory.... just like Vallee / davis did... just like rey hernandez did. otherwise you're asking us to rely on your opinion.
 
forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse, but it seems that as long as we're playing this game ( scientific method... Reason based thinking) then you have to offer evidence to support your theory.... just like Vallee / davis did... just like rey hernandez did. otherwise you're asking us to rely on your opinion.
I'd love to hear an interview of Eric Davis!
Could ask some questions about the recently leaked notes of his... could ask what he knows about the state of the art of the physical aspect of this (warp drives, worm holes, and such)... as well as the softer side of this (as discussed in his joint paper with Jacques). Could ask what it is like working for Bigelow and Puthoff, and what kind of plans he has for future areas of research. I've only found a few interviews of him on the YouTubes, so might be a good guest?
 
ok, but aren't you just kinda passing the buck? I mean, it's a bit like the "turtles all the way down" explanation... "so there's this higher bandwidth and above that there's this higher bandwidth and above that there's this higher bandwidth..."
Well, I'm not talking about higher or lower - that is too value laden, IMO. Just bandwidths. Which you select to attune to, the consequences and value assigned are up to you.

Turtles all the way down is what you get when dealing with infinity. In this case, perceptual bandwidths up/down/sideways/inside/outside/Mobius strip and so on and so forth. Sorry, but that's all there is; that and your free will +creative power.

Now, some of these perceptual bandwidths contain intelligences of awesome power far beyond your or my puny existence and some contain benevolent power and some contain destructive force. If you want to call them "gods" or "devils" you're free to do so. But how would you even know if you encountered the bandwidth that controls all other bandwidths? Is there even such a thing? I have no idea. We are men. The best we can do is deal with the world(s) of men (defined as whatever men can perceive). What is beyond what we can perceive is unknowable (e.g. what lies beyond what we get from OBEs, NDEs, ADCs, etc)
 
ok, but aren't you just kinda passing the buck? I mean, it's a bit like the "turtles all the way down" explanation... "so there's this higher bandwidth and above that there's this higher bandwidth and above that there's this higher bandwidth..."
Of course it's just my opinion, but it is based on some evidence. Just as those guys you mention are offering an opinion based on their interpretation of evidence they have selected. The evidence is open to various interpretations.

I will take the time to organize a solid case (I'm just starting to assemble all of that for a book) and I'll present it to you. In the meanwhile, I can offer this; I can safely state - because I think there'd be ample agreement from people who have had the experience(s) - that people can be trained to shift awareness away from their ego. This can be done with certain drugs (I don't mean just taking a psychedelic and seeing what happens. I mean becoming intimately familiar it), inducing OBEs, lucid dreaming, remote viewing, etc. All things I have personally experienced and that many others have as well.

When one has obtained some degree of mastery of these states one can explore. The first thing one notices is that one is not oneself. Why should be obvious. The habitual self is the ego (much psychological and spiritual research to cite here). You have diminished the ego.

Something else that is readily observed is that the intellect/rationality/science is not operating in any of these states. Those modes of perceiving and interpreting the world are an ego function and thus very limiting (like a wannabe construction worker with only a hammer). Have you ever heard of, say, a full blown NDE where the experiencer is using rationality and science to understand? No. There is feeling, sensing, direct knowing. Words aren't even operating. The NDErs often try to convey how things weren't being told to them with words, but in other ways they can't fully explain now that they are back in ego land.

However, ego shrinking doesn't require practice or deliberate application of techniques. It happens to people all of the time. Sometimes something captures your attention so much that you forget yourself; or you just space out for a bit for whatever reason. You don't develop an understanding of consciousness that way, but it has still happened.

So already, trying to be scientific about all of this is clearly going to fall short, but let's go with it anyhow.

So far, I think that JV would be with me. Hernandez? I don't know.

Here's where JV, IMO becomes self-contradictory and it gets at the meat and potatoes of who is doing what to whom - JV acknowledges that the UFOs are probably archetypes and not nuts and bolts craft. IN fact, that's kind of what he's all about. Ditto "aliens" encountered in other ways, like abductions.

By definition, an archetype is man made to a large extent, right? It might be a primal energy that exists outside of man, but man gives it a name and a face and somewhat anthropomorphizes it.

So at the very least, JV should agree that these are not alien intelligences coming to manipulate our awareness's. These are very human forces - forces that are perhaps often ignored or repressed - that seek expression because they are part of our psychic field as humans. So it's us manipulating us to the extent that it might start knocking on the door, but at the same time it is us coming to visit ourselves.

Getting back to what happens when the ego is diminished - you are able to have contact with these latent psychic energies. That is what you experience. Period. Full stop. I don't think that anyone into this area of study who has had experiences would say otherwise.

So we have people having ego diminished/spaced out lapses, deliberate or otherwise, that then experience all of these non-rational psychic energies that are part of the human field of perceptional capabilities.

Now you tell me, please. Where is the evidence that these energies are non-human in nature? Where is the evidence that they seek to contact us and manipulate our awareness for whatever purposes, sinister or good? JV's own theories and understandings don't support taking that leap. All of the non-human origin conjecture seems to arise from people that don't understand that humans are bigger than their egos and are all psi-inter-related via a collective unconscious.
 
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so just a big ol blob of consciousness, eh? no moral imperative, no right or wrong?
No. I didn't say that at all. You know what feels right deep down inside, don't you? For me it's honor, strength, love, beauty, truth, joy. I bet you're similar. I don't get the hang-up on that.

And it's not a blob. No more than your radio is a mishmash of stations playing at the same time. You chose the station.

The problem with religion and belief systems is that it teaches people to be followers and not trust what they feel inside and to be afraid of freedom. Evil people who want to control others, even if it's through protecting them, want these systems.

I want to be with my brothers and sisters in this world and the next. These are people that chose the same band width and lived their lives accordingly. I will let them and my higher self do the judging and moral assessment
 
No. I didn't say that at all. You know what feels right deep down inside, don't you? For me it's honor, strength, love, beauty, truth, joy. I bet you're similar. I don't get the hang-up on that.

And it's not a blob. No more than your radio is a mishmash of stations playing at the same time. You chose the station.

The problem with religion and belief systems is that it teaches people to be followers and not trust what they feel inside and to be afraid of freedom. Evil people who want to control others, even if it's through protecting them, want these systems.

I want to be with my brothers and sisters in this world and the next. These are people that chose the same band width and lived their lives accordingly. I will let them and my higher self do the judging and moral assessment
Alex,
That being said, I do sometimes see things in a biblical kind of way. Some of us have aligned with good bandwidths and some with destructive/evil. Many are lost in between. There is a constant friction between the alignments and a battle for those lost between.

OTOH, I have had two highly evidential sittings with a medium. No judgment was mentioned. I've read a lot of ADCs and no judgment is mentioned in the vast majority.

We do have hellish NDEs and other visions. I don't know. The moral imperative seems to be up to us. What we call good morals seems to feel good at the spiritual level. We seem to be built to align with the good because it feels good. Some idiots elect to feel bad. If want to align with bad forces and have unjoyful perceptions, then there's where you will dwell; in that world. You what you are and wherever you go, there you are.
 
And it's not a blob. No more than your radio is a mishmash of stations playing at the same time. You chose the station.
On your radio there is a tuner... a dial to discriminate. It is useless to have a radio if it is inundated with all the signals all the time. The fact that we have a golidlocks amount of interaction with the "other" beings of which there's likely to be a near infinite variety means there is something in place that discriminates and it doesn't feel like us - at least not the part of ourselves that we currently identify with. What is the structure of this filter that gives us our "space" in which to evolve without too much interference, or perhaps just the right amount of interference? Perhaps there are many filter elements to this overall filter of which actual "space" (long distances) is just one such layer, but if we consider the others, we run into hierarchy again.

Here's the possibilities:
  1. We are alone. (this one is arrogant, anthropocentric, and laughable)
  2. We are not alone, but it is not possible to get here or communicate (again, arrogant, and short-sighted, but seems to be the mainstream default view)
  3. We are not alone, but not attractive. No one wants to come to this backwater planet because we're smelly and gross and uninteresting. But if there's practically an infinite variety of beings with access, then we should again be inundated by interference from intergalactic/interdimensional voyeurs.
  4. We are not alone, and the there is some type of regulation in place that restricts access to us to a healthy and purposeful level (albeit with some amount of possible rule-breaking going on)
This last option is the only one that makes any sense to me, but it means we find ourselves under the purview of a non-human hierarchy which is what Alex keeps coming back to. That's what many religions have told us for ages and that is what some NDEs tell us.

The fact that we can put aside ego and choose to identify with any element high or low in this hierarchy or even the totality of it, is very nice indeed, but also tends to ruin the story and isn't always a practical means to dealing with the hierarchy in which we find ourselves.
 
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On your radio there is a tuner... a dial to discriminate. It is useless to have a radio if it is inundated with all the signals all the time. The fact that we have a golidlocks amount of interaction with the "other" beings of which there's likely to be a near infinite variety means there is something in place that discriminates and it doesn't feel like us - at least not the part of ourselves that we currently identify with. What is the structure of this filter that gives us our "space" in which to evolve without too much interference, or perhaps just the right amount of interference? Perhaps there are many filter elements to this overall filter of which actual "space" (long distances) is just one such layer, but if we consider the others, we run into hierarchy again.

Here's the possibilities:
  1. We are alone. (this one is arrogant, anthropocentric, and laughable)
  2. We are not alone, but it is not possible to get here or communicate (again, arrogant, and short-sighted, but seems to be the mainstream default view)
  3. We are not alone, but not attractive. No one wants to come to this backwater planet because we're smelly and gross and uninteresting. But if there's practically an infinite variety of beings with access, then we should again be inundated by interference from intergalactic/interdimensional voyeurs.
  4. We are not alone, and the there is some type of regulation in place that restricts access to us to a healthy and purposeful level (albeit with some amount of possible rule-breaking going on)
This last option is the only one that makes any sense to me, but it means we find ourselves under the purview of a non-human hierarchy which is what Alex keeps coming back to. That's what many religions have told us for ages and that is what some NDEs tell us.

The fact that we can put aside ego and choose to identify with any element high or low in this hierarchy or even the totality of it, is very nice indeed, but also tends to ruin the story and isn't always a practical means to dealing with the hierarchy in which we find ourselves.
Look at Sheldrake's morphic fields - if a rat over here learns a maze, rats over there learn the maze more quickly. But rabbits don't learn the maze.

Each creature has psychic bandwidths particular to that creature. This must be true of humans too and no doubt anything that is alive in or not in physical form. I think this is the "regulation" you refer to. While there is some overlap of perceptual possibilities between creatures/entity types we also have 1. Non-overlap sufficient to create a barrier 2. Overlap that is possible, but not normally accessed.

The spirits of the deceased have, through ADCs, tried to explain the extreme difficulties they encounter when trying to communicate to the living. They are on a different perceptual wavelength. It seems to me that an alien from another wolrd would face the same challenges for the same reasons.
 
Look at Sheldrake's morphic fields - if a rat over here learns a maze, rats over there learn the maze more quickly. But rabbits don't learn the maze.
I'm familiar with that. There's also the rats that developed instincts to avoid an electrified bridge without inter-generational contact. There's also the mysterious psychic abilities of the homing pigeons (which contrary to popular belief have little if anything to do with the earth's magnetic field). And all kinds of other cases. I like the idea of concentric circles of similarity and familiarity acting in some sense as a psychic filter, and I think that ties into the platonic forms and the idea that physical instantiations of such forms are a probabilistic result of something like a Generative Adversarial Network.

Each creature has psychic bandwidths particular to that creature. This must be true of humans too and no doubt anything that is alive in or not in physical form. I think this is the "regulation" you refer to.
So the regulation you're referring to is something built in and automatic and not necessarily the result of a bureaucratic hierarchy of "other" beings... and I agree that is one lower level layer of the filter.

The spirits of the deceased have, through ADCs, tried to explain the extreme difficulties they encounter when trying to communicate to the living. They are on a different perceptual wavelength. It seems to me that an alien from another wolrd would face the same challenges for the same reasons.
If something is possible but difficult, then making it easier is only a matter of improvement in technology. ...which means that some beings have already improved this technology (unless we're the first which is arrogant and unlikely)... which means that for some beings the lower level layer of filters are easily bypassed... which means we need some form of government to form a higher level layer of the filter.
 
I'm familiar with that. There's also the rats that developed instincts to avoid an electrified bridge without inter-generational contact. There's also the mysterious psychic abilities of the homing pigeons (which contrary to popular belief have little if anything to do with the earth's magnetic field). And all kinds of other cases. I like the idea of concentric circles of similarity and familiarity acting in some sense as a psychic filter, and I think that ties into the platonic forms and the idea that physical instantiations of such forms are a probabilistic result of something like a Generative Adversarial Network.



So the regulation you're referring to is something built in and automatic and not necessarily the result of a bureaucratic hierarchy of "other" beings... and I agree that is one lower level layer of the filter.



If something is possible but difficult, then making it easier is only a matter of improvement in technology. ...which means that some beings have already improved this technology (unless we're the first which is arrogant and unlikely)... which means that for some beings the lower level layer of filters are easily bypassed... which means we need some form of government to form a higher level layer of the filter.
Well, the particular bundle of possible perceptual bandwidths are the creature or entity. There would be no uniqueness if all entities were composed of and had access to all bandwidths. That would be the "blob" that is Alex's nemesis ;-)

To the extent that entities have some perceptual bandwidths in common, there can be communication of some kind. Entities with no perceptual bandwidth potentials in common cannot communicate. They wouldn't even know each exist. They would literally inhabit different worlds.

So is communication barrier a built in automatic feature? Yes. Absolutely. Was it designed to be that way back at the origin of all things? I don't know. The vedas tell us that distinct entities came into being due to the melding of karmic forces that exist in the universe; all of the urges and desires and energies. Makes as much sense as anything else, but that would be a natural process, not a deliberate design. I really have no idea how it all got started and I'm pretty sure that no one else does either. That is beyond our perceptual capacity to know for sure.

As for improving technology to facilitate communication that is difficult, that is probably true theoretically, but spirits have been around a long time and they seem to still face great challenges communicating with the living. So the time frame for such development must be longer than human history.
 
Well, the particular bundle of possible perceptual bandwidths are the creature or entity. There would be no uniqueness if all entities were composed of and had access to all bandwidths. That would be the "blob" that is Alex's nemesis ;-)

To the extent that entities have some perceptual bandwidths in common, there can be communication of some kind.

So is communication barrier a built in automatic feature? Yes. Absolutely. Was it designed to be that way back at the origin of all things? I don't know. The vedas tell us that distinct entities came into being due to the melding of karmic forces that exist in the universe; all of the urges and desires and energies. Makes as much sense as anything else, but that would be a natural process, not a deliberate design. I really have no idea how it all got started and I'm pretty sure that no one else does either. That is beyond our perceptual capacity to know for sure.
I agree with all this. :)

As for improving technology to facilitate communication that is difficult, that is probably true theoretically, but spirits have been around a long time and they seem to still face great challenges communicating with the living. So the time frame for such development must be longer than human history.
SOME spirits have difficulty. Some can do exactly as they please as if they were on a mission from God. By analogy, some of us have the smarts to hack into a classified server while most of us don't.

I always thought this Bible story in Daniel 10 was interesting as it is another place the hierarchy - the heavenly bureaucracy manifesting as old-fashioned battle and entangling alliances - shows up.
12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.” ... 20 So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greecewill come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth.(No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.
To the extent to which we are the authors of this story of reality, it might be that we are drawn subconsciously to the most interesting thing... which would for us be an extrapolation of our own drama into intergalactic power plays. So even if the aliens are a creation of our Jungian collective unconscious, they are perhaps a very real form of government agents, spies, soldiers, scientists, caretakers, businessmen, and peacemakers.
 
To the extent to which we are the authors of this story of reality, it might be that we are drawn subconsciously to the most interesting thing... which would for us be an extrapolation of our own drama into intergalactic power plays. So even if the aliens are a creation of our Jungian collective unconscious, they are perhaps a very real form of government agents, spies, soldiers, scientists, caretakers, businessmen, and peacemakers.
I think we need to understand our true nature first before taking on some of these bigger questions. We are currently - in our every day ego state - using only a fraction of our perceptual capabilities. Then we try to piece together fragments obtained from our own and others' journeys beyond the little ego island. All I know for sure is that we (our consciousness) are far bigger, far deeper, far wider and far more powerful than most of us like to believe. There is too much danger of misattributing to other forces that which are just the unknown facets of us.
 
probably missed that part. pls direct me.
In the video, the skeptic doesn't name a source of testing other than to the stars academy, which he doubts. The nimitz encounter has me intrigued. No good explanations other than inferring aliens.

In the beginning of your interview, an anonymous scientist is claimed to believe the material must be from another civilization. So it's you saying that she said that the scientist said (etc)! It's that idea that I dispute. But I still enjoyed the interview. If I didn't find your views credible, I wouldn't keep listening.

And I get it. It's in the book! Double entendre there, sorta. Fun books like that should sell well. I have a friend who would really enjoy it.
 
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