Dr. Gregory Shushan, Making the Case For Cross-Cultural NDEs |422|

#61
I have to say that I think Blackmore is just overthinking it all. I listened to her some time ago explaining her position, and I thought, WTF lady, it isn't that complicated. Why are you doing this? Then I lost interest in her..

I don't think she believes, and that's a problem. You can think yourself down a rabbit hole, and maybe you can build a career out of doing that. But as a journey of personal exploration it does seem like overkill. Of course Blackmore is entitled to her sense of the real. My observation is that she is a stand out loner here - so what she has to say may be useful to some, but not the many.

She's not to my taste. Others will doubtless have a different POV.
Hah! She wants to know but their is nothing to test. Well, nothing worth it given her values. So much for objectivity in our market based economy! If you can call those institutions market based! That's laughable!

Its well known tests of out of body consciousness turn up as not "objective-ly" true. I mean the ones that have been tested under controlled conditions, though of course sometimes it does work! And that's amazing and evidence more research is needed.

In the case of NDE related OBE's we have high quality evidence that something odd that cannot happen does happen. But NDE-OBEs occur without ones intention! WTF!

So much for our will...our ego...our life. Its not up to us. Something decidedly posthuman is controlling things?
 
#62
Or a successful product, like if Rossi actually sold a working LENR device to consumers at Lowe's or Home Depot.
Can you expand on that a bit, LENR is an interesting field, but although there seems to be good evidence of these Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, this is ignored unless/until a working generator is produced! Imagine if radioactivity researchers at the start of last century had had to produce a nuclear reactor before anyone would take them seriously!

David
 
#63
How many of us would come here to share heretical thoughts of all kinds if we knew we might be burned at the stake?
Good point David. The materialists have successfully engineered a complete BS campaign. The most brutal conflicts are within disciplines, not between them. While the materialists were bleating about Galileo's treatment opponents to the Christian propaganda were being tortured and murdered. Exactly how many scientists were tortured and murdered by the Church? Zero? Why? Maybe because science was not the threat that bullshit materialists made us think?

The question you ask applies equally to religion and science in terms of internal disputes. Religious torture and murder is not as well known as it should be, but its no secret. The utterly shitty culture of pissed off scientists is a secret, because science is supposed to a calm rational and unemotional endeavour. Don't you believe it. The over focus on rationality has left many a scientist with a retarded emotional development - with the result that the nastiest bitch fights you will find any where are among supposedly rational, sane and highly intelligent men.

Yeah. Who dare share a heretical thought in that environment. Religion is just as bad. If you care, welcome to the middle ground!
 
#64
Its well known tests of out of body consciousness turn up as not "objective-ly" true. I mean the ones that have been tested under controlled conditions, though of course sometimes it does work! And that's amazing and evidence more research is needed.

In the case of NDE related OBE's we have high quality evidence that something odd that cannot happen does happen. But NDE-OBEs occur without ones intention! WTF!
Interesting series of thoughts.

First up so many psi phenomena don't replicate under controlled conditions - its like getting Pandas to mate successfully. Its not the psi, its the circumstance, experiencers of natural psi are not porn stars.

The first fully conscious OOBE I had happened without intent. Ditto my (then) partner's multiple OOBES. See Robert Monroe's Journeys Out of the Body for a definitive expression of this.

OOBEs are often induced by sort guides -and blocked. You get to go consciously OOB when it is determined its time.
 
#65
Can you expand on that a bit, LENR is an interesting field, but although there seems to be good evidence of these Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, this is ignored unless/until a working generator is produced! Imagine if radioactivity researchers at the start of last century had had to produce a nuclear reactor before anyone would take them seriously!

David
It might be real. I know I do not know! But the history of its popularity is this: Rossi's ECAT is a fraud and was caught cheating. TWICE! Once with LENR and earlier in his career!

And I love this post as it seems one of LENR's supporters is getting his own bitter comeuppance! I mean that merely in the sense that its good for mythical authorities and the coattails they ride on to to be challenged.

http://news.newenergytimes.net/2019...story-overturned-at-university-of-manchester/
 
#66
Interesting series of thoughts.

First up so many psi phenomena don't replicate under controlled conditions - its like getting Pandas to mate successfully. Its not the psi, its the circumstance, experiencers of natural psi are not porn stars.

The first fully conscious OOBE I had happened without intent. Ditto my (then) partner's multiple OOBES. See Robert Monroe's Journeys Out of the Body for a definitive expression of this.

OOBEs are often induced by sort guides -and blocked. You get to go consciously OOB when it is determined its time.
I like that idea in that at least matches what i know. But its testable. Maybe.

Heard of meditation induced NDE's? I think its been covered here.
 
#67
I like that idea in that at least matches what i know. But its testable. Maybe.
It has been tested repeatedly. That's why 'controlled' psi experiments tend to produce weak but statistically significant results (if I recall Dean Radin rightly) - apart from the rare strong performers.

There are lots of situations where natural talents go shy when subjected to strong scrutiny. The state of mind that permits a natural talent to show is not reproducible on demand.

Besides, where some talents are actually spirit assisted the spirits may decline to participate in formal studies. I think we are all weakly endowed with psi capacity, something I think all living beings have. In most cases its a background awareness that does not make it through the 'conscious traffic' into clear awareness. And because of our cultural conditioning we Westerners have the added negative of denial. In traditional and archaic cultures psi awareness is at a different level, because it is built into culture as part of normal.

Heard of meditation induced NDE's? I think its been covered here.

No, but such would be unsurprising to me. I see NDEs as essentially mostly trauma induced OOBEs. I suppose you can have a bliss induced OOBE too.
 
#68
It might be real. I know I do not know! But the history of its popularity is this: Rossi's ECAT is a fraud and was caught cheating. TWICE! Once with LENR and earlier in his career!
Yes, but you see normal science doesn't work by arguing that if you can't build a working generator, the field is bunk! The generator is the ultimate fruit. Using that criterion, hot fusion would be long dead.

Now in the case of LENR, I have seen papers that show that a variety of nuclear bi-products are detectable after these experiments are run - this is itself a remarkable discovery. For my money, a refutation of LENR would start with the most basic experiments. There is a quantum mechanical argument against LENR, which calculates the probability of two nuclei coming close enough to fuse at normal temperatures - which is hopelessly small. However, others point out that cold fusion is a solid-state phenomenon and so doing calculations based on two isolated nuclei isn't necessarily relevant.

However, I haven't followed this subject in anything like the detail to comment further, but I hope someone else on the forum might jump in.

David
 
#69
However, I haven't followed this subject in anything like the detail to comment further, but I hope someone else on the forum might jump in.
Hi David

They probably don't, because, like me, they have no idea what you are talking about. I am not saying what you are saying isn't sensible - I just don't know. But its is educational reading your posts.:)
 
#70
Now in the case of LENR, I have seen papers that show that a variety of nuclear bi-products are detectable after these experiments are run - this is itself a remarkable discovery. For my money, a refutation of LENR would start with the most basic experiments. There is a quantum mechanical argument against LENR, which calculates the probability of two nuclei coming close enough to fuse at normal temperatures - which is hopelessly small. However, others point out that cold fusion is a solid-state phenomenon and so doing calculations based on two isolated nuclei isn't necessarily relevant.
For eg -WHF? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
#72
Sorry David.

I was tired and misfingered. I meant to say WTF because I have no bloody idea what you are talking about. I have not the slightest doubt it is eminently intelligent and learned - and there may be a handful of folk equally erudite on the same subject. You may as well have hit random keys for all the good it does me.

I know enough science to not pretend I know anything.

Thanks for explaining LENR to me. I have watched docos on cold fusion, and even though they made sense at the time - and I kinda get the gist - I could not now explain it to you. I am curious to watch a doco and curious enough to have a conversation about cold fusion, but that does not translate to understanding the science.

Its like asking some tech head a technical question about your computer and getting a high volume stream of jargon - which you know means something, if you understood it. I know (actually I don't, I am just guessing) you are talking sense, but I haven't a clue what you are saying.

Its okay:eek::)
 
#73
It might be real. I know I do not know! But the history of its popularity is this: Rossi's ECAT is a fraud and was caught cheating. TWICE! Once with LENR and earlier in his career!

And I love this post as it seems one of LENR's supporters is getting his own bitter comeuppance! I mean that merely in the sense that its good for mythical authorities and the coattails they ride on to to be challenged.

http://news.newenergytimes.net/2019...story-overturned-at-university-of-manchester/
wow... thx, I didn't know that rumors re the Rossi fraud were true:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/08/accumulated-evidence-that-rossi-e-cat-was-fraud.html
 
#74
Well, that "tomorrow" turned into almost a month... but better late than never! ;)

Welcome to the forum, Gregory!

I wonder if you ever came across anything like Christian judgement - i.e. an assessment process that had only two possible outcomes, one of which was unspeakably awful. Put another way, do you think that that particular piece of Christian theology came from NDE experiences, or was perhaps just added as a way to control the people.

This isn't an academic forum, so I guess it is fair to ask broader questions. I wonder what your own expectations are about the end of your life - what you expect it to be like 'out there'. Also what do you see as the purpose of the life/lives we lead - I mean the overall purpose.

We come across a number of NDE's in which people imply that the afterlife takes place in a timeless realm - which has produced much speculation. Did you came across that idea in any other cultures. Timelessness is a very difficult concept because most verbs are hard to understand without a before and an afterwords - e.g. think about what 'discover' means in a timeless context! My rationalisation is that it becomes possible to see (and maybe manipulate) the whole of time on earth simultaneously, but there is a second time axis for spirit activities.

David
David, yes there are examples of non-Christian heaven/hell type NDEs. Two Algonquin examples reported by Thomas Hariot in 1588 come to mind but there are more. From my book:

The first, which was said to have occurred a few years prior to Hariot’s arrival, involved a “wicked man” who had been “dead and buried,” then revived. He claimed that his soul had journeyed westward toward the hellish realm of Popogusso, but was saved by a deity who made him return to his body in order to teach his people how to avoid such negative fates. The second, contemporary with Hariot’s visit, described a man who left his body during his own funeral. He walked along a path lined with houses and abundant fruit trees, and met his deceased father, who sent him back to his body to tell his people about the happiness of the other realm. These accounts indicate Algonquian belief in two separate, morally determined realms at least twenty- five years prior to missionary activity; though the notion coexisted alongside beliefs in a single realm for all.

Still, the degree to which they might have been influenced by Christianity or Hariot's interpretation is unknowable.

I can't think of anything specifically about timelessness.

As for my own expectations, I think I'll have some kind of amazing NDE-like transitional experience, probably deeply influenced by all my research in this area. So probably drawing on cross-cultural imagery, especially since I wasn't raised religious but had early experiences of Catholic, Hindu, and Jewish religions. If you've read Carl Jung's NDE, it's a great example of a really idiosyncratic experience influenced by his interest in different religions and symbols. What might happen after the transition, I have no idea - but if I had to speculate on what it might be like we do survive after death the mind-dependent/shared lucid dream model makes the most sense to me. The idea that our cultural conditioning not only affects the kind of NDE we'll have, but also the kind of afterlife is compelling - and may explain why there are more reincarnation accounts among societies that believe in reincarnation.

The overall purpose of life? I don't believe in any kind of grand cosmic scheme. I sort of agree with Eleanor Roosevelt, "The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience." But I also think it goes deeper than that on an individual basis - meaning we all need to find our purpose and life a life that feels authentic to who we are.
 
#75
Yeah it does seem like there's not a universal theme to these NDEs...what are we supposed to learn from them? Just the truths of our particular society or cultural?
Chris, I think there is a theme - and it's generally about making life better. Your own, you're family's, your society, whatever. In some Native American examples, the NDEr is told to go back and resist missionary/European influence. In others they're told to go back and convert to Christianity. But in both cases it was about how to best deal with an existentially threatening situation.

Even though it varies by culture, I can't think of any examples in which the NDEr was told to come back do something negative or damaging. It's pretty much always a positive message. And that goes way back to ancient otherworld journey myths - the visitor to the otherworld returns with some new knowledge, like the secret of agriculture or some new ritual.
 
#76
I have to confess, up front, I haven't finished listening to the show. What I have heard suggested to me that Greg should have a conversation with Jeff Kripal (Changed in a Flash). Alex will get this instantly. We run a risk on Skeptiko of getting deeply engaging speakers on and then burying their content their specific content over time as other interesting things come up.

Here's a suggestion - the Skeptiko dinner party. A forum involving Greg, Jeff and 2 other guests talk NDEs free form for 2 hours. Alex moderates. What do you think?
Great idea - I'd definitely be game if the logistics could be solved. I got to know Jeff at an Anthropology and the Paranormal symposium at Esalen a few years back. http://afterliferesearch.weebly.com/news/symposium-on-anthropology-and-the-paranormal
 
#77
Chris, I think there is a theme - and it's generally about making life better. Your own, you're family's, your society, whatever. In some Native American examples, the NDEr is told to go back and resist missionary/European influence. In others they're told to go back and convert to Christianity. But in both cases it was about how to best deal with an existentially threatening situation.
From small to large, regardless the significance, your heart is expressed inside the impact you serve upon those within your reach.
 
#78
@superqualia and @Michael Patterson - this may sound bizarre, but I think Blackmore views NDEs from her own "theological" commitments. It's debatable as to whether you can call Buddhism a theology, but as a Buddhist she holds beliefs that happen to coincide with materialism - especially the idea of no-self, that the self is an illusion. If there is no "self" there is nothing to die and have an NDE, so Blackmore is able to see even her own NDE as illusory.
 
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#79
@superqualia and @Michael Patterson - this may sound bizarre, but I think Blackmore views NDEs from her own "theological" commitments. It's debatable as to whether you can call Buddhism a theology, but as a Buddhist she holds beliefs that happen to coincide with materialism - especially the idea of no-self, that the self is an illusion. If there is no "self" there is nothing to die and have an NDE, so Blackmore is able to see even her own NDE as illusory.
Maybe she is in denial because no one ever came back from an NDE and said, 'Everybody has to drop everything and meditate until you get enlightenment so you can stop reincarnating."

I don't understand why a Buddhist would believe in materialism, an enlightened "non-returner" will be reborn in a heavenly realm. The belief that self is an illusion does not preclude the existence of the physical world so how could one claim the illusory nature of an NDE would preclude the existence of spiritual realms? I think her materialism is influencing her interpretation of Buddhism - so I don't think it's her Buddhism that is influencing her interpretation of NDE's it is her materialism.

But I should not criticize her, I am a Buddhist, I took the five precepts at a Zen temple. I use the meditation and mindfulness practices from many Buddhist traditions, but I don't get my spiritual beliefs from Buddhism either. I get my spiritual beliefs from mainstream scientific evidence from cosmology, chemistry, paleontology, and physics, evidential mediums, reports by NDErs, the views of Nobel prize winning and other great scientists, and my own experiences.
 
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#80
@superqualia and @Michael Patterson - this may sound bizarre, but I think Blackmore views NDEs from her own "theological" commitments. It's debatable as to whether you can call Buddhism a theology, but as a Buddhist she holds beliefs that happen to coincide with materialism - especially the idea of no-self, that the self is an illusion. If there is no "self" there is nothing to die and have an NDE, so Blackmore is able to see even her own NDE as illusory.
Some people have questioned the nature of Blackmore's grasp of Buddhism. At any rate, her theological belief in materialism seems uppermost in her statements on these matters.
 
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