Dr. Hugh Urban, Scholarly Look At What Many Call Cults |437|

[David Bailey]

I can sympathize with those who forsake Christianity as it so often has to do with churches that have corrupted the teachings

Right, but where did that corruption start - possibly in the interval before the Gospels were first written down - so even the Bible should be suspect.

I think it is possible to believe in an idea, and maybe a person (e.g. Trump) but not in an established religion. If you believe in a person, it is possible to change your mind and reject the person.

Skeptiko is about free exploration of ideas, as opposed to taking one source as gospel (sorry for the pun).

David

 

[lonevoice]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-lati...IdRDKSNAtPndUbkSCOLeAscthRSzlZG30H85Twzj4PhMg

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932 "God is love and love is sex." Including incest, pedophilia, polyamorist sex including toddlers. It sounds like this cult still exists.

Alex, I honor your reverence for Ram Dass' guru. But did you ever see the references to his having sex with women, to show them it was nothing to fear? What think you?

 

[Typoz]

The idea of “salvation” is a load of nonsense. As is the idea that all of our problems are erased when we die and we become sustained in a Heavenly paradise. We carry our problems with us after death. This has caused me to take my issues into my own hands and correct them. Because we’ll all have to at some point. I no longer walk around feeling like I’m “a bad sinner.”

I was pretty much forced down a similar line of thought, and similar conclusions, when I realised that only reincarnation could properly explain my current-life situation.

I'd spent years juggling basically two alternate world-views. One, the straight materialist, we are a product of heredity and environment. Two, the rather incomprehensible Christian ideas which were part of my cultural heritage. Nether of them could explain the here and now. It was the need to come to terms with the right here, right now existence that made reincarnation the only thing which made sense.

In one move, it displaced both the materialist and religious ideas, both of them were a kind of attempt at papering over the cracks. We each have our own journey through life, so these things won't affect all of us in the same way. But for me, the time came when papering over the cracks and trying to hold together crumbling world-view was no longer sustainable. The narrative, the story in which we describe our relationship with this world and with eternity, that narrative shifted.

 

[Baccarat]

Okaay... Well then it follows that they must not believe in prayer either. You hafta have someone, a Divine Being to direct your prayer to for any hope of assistance. That's a bit lamentable. God could provide them with a Guardian Angel. Such Angels are discussed at page 233 of The Spirit's Book by Allen Kardec. Trust me on this, they work and are one of the greatest gifts, second only to Salvation which may be bestowed by God on a human being.

Nah if you pray to deities they have power over you, it's food for them,thread lightly

 

[Baccarat]

If you found out God existed and was evil how would you feel?

 

[Steve]

If you found out God existed and was evil how would you feel?

Good question.
I think I’d feel pretty shitty. May want to opt out, but would I be brave enough to go through with it if it were possible?

 

[Michael Patterson]

Precisely. Christianity didn’t rescue human beings from materialistic beliefs. It simply replaced already imbedded non-materialistic philosophies/beliefs.

As far as coupling atheism and materialism goes, I agree that they are often coupled for good reason. But I do know a couple of atheists who are not materialistic and believe in an afterlife. And they are informed by taking an interest in afterlife and consciousness research. They just don’t believe in any deities. While I don’t necassarily share those beliefs (I don’t really know about the God thing) I don’t think it’s an unreasonable position to hold.

Sure atheism does not always mean an absence of any belief in a metaphysical dimension - just mostly so. Most atheists are not so subtle as to be just atheistic - against theism.

I tend toward polytheism - but our conception of deities is all muddled - as is evidenced by the fake debate between monotheism and polytheism - a debate only monotheists have really.

 

[Michael Patterson]

If you found out God existed and was evil how would you feel?

Like I had made an error in my conception of God, or my conception of evil.

 

[Michael Patterson]

I can sympathize with those who forsake Christianity as it so often has to do with churches that have corrupted the teachings. If Jesus said, "Call ye no man, 'Father'," But the Catholic Church asks that their congregations do just that when addressing a priest then this is disobeying the Gospel. Jesus saw into the future and where such subordinating of young church members could lead when the (in my opinion bonfire worthy) Confessional is applied and the young person confesses to his or her "sinful" sexual thoughts and self pleasuring. Surely this has lead in no small way to the thousands of molestation charges Catholic clergy are presently facing. The Church also maintains that, "Outside the Church is no Salvation." But Jesus says, "I am the gate of the sheep. No one cometh unto the Father except through me." A bit of contradiction here but encouraging for the non church attending Christian. Regarding praying, I'm sorry it didn't do anything for you as it also hasn't for so many others. For some reason it does nevertheless often seem to work for me. Sometimes amazingly. So I stick to it.

Obviously Christianity works very well for some people, and not for others. I think it is a perilous thing to criticise a faith just because you find things in it that you don't like. That said, for many recovering Christians do go through the process of critical disengagement that is necessary for their own spiritual growth. I was born into a Christian family, but, post Sunday school nothing about the faith appealed to me. It was not suited to me at all. Despite its claims it was not, and never was, then only game in town.

There are dimensions of Christianity that merit criticism in a cultural context, but not at the level of personal attachment. Its okay to be Christian and its okay to be post Christian too. How we behave in a pluralistic culture concerns the cultural dimension of a faith - and that's a complex and subtle consideration that should never get personal.

 

[Alex]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-lati...IdRDKSNAtPndUbkSCOLeAscthRSzlZG30H85Twzj4PhMg

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932 "God is love and love is sex." Including incest, pedophilia, polyamorist sex including toddlers. It sounds like this cult still exists.

Alex, I honor your reverence for Ram Dass' guru. But did you ever see the references to his having sex with women, to show them it was nothing to fear? What think you?

I think he's dirty. I think it's also semi-public knowledge that he's was gay man that engaging in bisexual stuff... if you know what I mean... I'm just saying I think he's come out and said he feels like he did a lot of things to cover up for being gay.

as far as guru, he's not really my guy

 

[garry]

I think it is a perilous thing to criticise a faith just because you find things in it that you don't like. That said, for many recovering Christians do go through the process of critical disengagement that is necessary for their own spiritual growth.

But I cannot criticize Christianity as per the Gospel, Micheal. Those instructions Jesus gave us concerning unconditional love for one another such as: "But I say that you love your enemies bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you." (Matthew 5:44) Such words are the key to humanity's cooperation, forgiveness of one another and world peace as well. If we think of the total length of time mankind has lumbered around on this Earth, is it ten thousand or a million years, what did we actually accomplish before Jesus came to Earth just two thousand years ago with his teachings? Certainly we have suffered terrible setbacks since then such as the world wars but this was due to us not adhering to the teachings. But our universal Christian getting along has made us triumphant over so many things. Look at our modes of transportation, our housing, our cures for disease and so much else. But I am critical of how Christianity, true Christianity has been corrupted by self serving religious divisions. It grieves me but little that I cannot comply with Roman Catholicism even though I inherited that faith. I may turn to the Christian United Church if I turn to another church at all. As you suggested, I may be going through a process of critical disengagement.

 

[Alex]

Obviously Christianity works very well for some people, and not for others. I think it is a perilous thing to criticise a faith just because you find things in it that you don't like. That said, for many recovering Christians do go through the process of critical disengagement that is necessary for their own spiritual growth. I was born into a Christian family, but, post Sunday school nothing about the faith appealed to me. It was not suited to me at all. Despite its claims it was not, and never was, then only game in town.

There are dimensions of Christianity that merit criticism in a cultural context, but not at the level of personal attachment. Its okay to be Christian and its okay to be post Christian too. How we behave in a pluralistic culture concerns the cultural dimension of a faith - and that's a complex and subtle consideration that should never get personal.

When you believe in things
That you don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way
-- Stevie Wonder

 

[lonevoice]

I think he's dirty. I think it's also semi-public knowledge that he's was gay man that engaging in bisexual stuff... if you know what I mean... I'm just saying I think he's come out and said he feels like he did a lot of things to cover up for being gay.

as far as guru, he's not really my guy

Deep thanks for this, Alex. I was not at all clear: it was the guru who had sex with a few women (which was in the book about him by his devotees), with the explanation that these women were afraid of sex and this fear would be removed by sex with a holy man.

 

[Baccarat]

Like I had made an error in my conception of God, or my conception of evil.

Both

 

[Baccarat]

Dam Dass had some nice quotables you can share on Facebook, other than that the eyes tell all he was a creep. Has anyone here read Carl Jungs Red Book?

 

[garry]

If you found out God existed and was evil how would you feel?

If I take my entire seven decade long life into consideration I would certainly say God was a hard task master. But God also knows His children and how much they can take. I had a pair of parents who should never have been together but were for not quite twenty years of arguments and during that time brought into the world seven kids of which I am the oldest. Needless to say We wore used clothing and kept a big garden to grow at least some of our own food. it seemed we never had money. I had a learning disability and flunked out of high school. The only skill open to me was that of general carpenter which involved a lot of outside work in often cold weather. The skill was valuable though as I built my first house myself. But my first marriage failed. And also my second fourteen years later. I've never been closer to suicide than then. But for some reason the intuition provided by an Angel I was still unaware of at the time encouraged me to carry on. After all, though I had no custody I had three children to provide for, which I did, thank God. Today my kids, all normal and now all over thirty are my best friends. Yes, God has been a hard taskmaster but never will I say He was evil. It has all been so rewarding.

 

[Michael Patterson]

Dam Dass had some nice quotables you can share on Facebook, other than that the eyes tell all he was a creep. Has anyone here read Carl Jungs Red Book?

Ram Dass?

 

[Michael Patterson]

When you believe in things
That you don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way
-- Stevie Wonder

But how do we know what we believe is superstition? Its usually other folk who say it is. And what do they know?

 

[Michael Patterson]

If I take my entire seven decade long life into consideration I would certainly say God was a hard task master. But God also knows His children and how much they can take. I had a pair of parents who should never have been together but were for not quite twenty years of arguments and during that time brought into the world seven kids of which I am the oldest. Needless to say We wore used clothing and kept a big garden to grow at least some of our own food. it seemed we never had money. I had a learning disability and flunked out of high school. The only skill open to me was that of general carpenter which involved a lot of outside work in often cold weather. The skill was valuable though as I built my first house myself. But my first marriage failed. And also my second fourteen years later. I've never been closer to suicide than then. But for some reason the intuition provided by an Angel I was still unaware of at the time encouraged me to carry on. After all, though I had no custody I had three children to provide for, which I did, thank God. Today my kids, all normal and now all over thirty are my best friends. Yes, God has been a hard taskmaster but never will I say He was evil. It has all been so rewarding.

The Australian Prime Minister, Malcom Fraser, was loudly condemned when he famously said "Life wasn't meant to be easy." That sounded like a landed bastard criticising the poor. But Fraser was a farmer, and even the squatocracy could grasp that fundamental truth. He was a better man than we allowed.

The Buddha observed the suffering of life, and the role of desire in driving suffering. There is an interpretation of the Gnostic tradition that holds that the making agencies of this world are evil - and hence the God of this world is evil. But that strikes me as more politics and art than deep thought. At best it is hyperbole used as a teaching tool rather than a purposeful philosophical assessment. I am not a fan of versions of modern Gnosticism that favour the God as evil angle. Its sloppy and kinda silly from my perspective.

 

[Typoz]

The concept of "God of this world" though is not considered as the entirety, it is a limited being, not an all-encompassing one.