Dr. Jacques Vallée’s Diaries Reveal What Most Scientists Still Deny |359|

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  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Dr. Jacques Vallée’s Diaries Reveal What Most Scientists Still Deny |359|
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    Dr. Jacques Vallée’s 40 years of diary entries disclose a large body of science that’s been intentionally hidden. [​IMG]
    photo by: Skeptiko
    Dr. Jacques Vallée is an almost mythical figure among those interested in UFOs.

    (movie clip from Close Encounters of the Third Kind)

    Who are you people?

    Please, one more question. Have you recently had a close encounter, a close encounter with something very unusual?

    Who are you people?

    And while he wasn’t really in that movie, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, there’s no doubt the French UFO researcher you just heard was based on the real life Jacques Vallée. As it turns out, Vallée was right smack in the middle of not just UFOs but a lot of the most important frontier science that has shaped our evolving understanding of who we are. Take for example telepathy, mindreading – now falling under parapsychology – but go back 50 years to Stanford Research Institute, when Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ, who go on to run the US Military psychic spying program, are investigating this Israeli psychic name Uri Geller.

    Dr. Jacques Vallée: …were at the SRI cafeteria having lunch, a big round table and Geller was across the table from me and Geller suddenly says, “I want to do an experiment with you Jacques, so I’m going to send you…”

    This is a great story and you’ll hear the whole thing in this interview, but let me cut to the chase. So Geller instructs Vallée how to do this little experiment and it works. So they take the next step, they’re right there in the SRI café, which kind of blows me away. I mean they’re sitting down having lunch and they go, “Well, what the heck? We have some envelopes left over from the experiment we were just running; let’s use one of those, see what happens?

    Dr. Jacques Vallée: I thought, I’m going to send it in two things. I’m going to send the whale, which is essentially a fish, I know a whale isn’t a fish but you know, I’m going to send a fish and I’m going to send a wooden shed that I see through the window. Geller said – all of a sudden he was all business – he took his pencil and he drew something and he says, “Look, I’m going to draw what I’m getting, but I’m not getting one thing, I’m getting two things. I’m getting a fish and then I’m getting a wooden shed.” So he drew the two things, he didn’t draw the target. There was no way he could have known that I did not send him the target, I sent him two things that I made up, and that’s what he got.

    Now, it’s almost hard to believe that all this happened exactly the way he’s saying, I mean, this is Jacques Vallée and everything, but come on. Well, here’s the real kicker. He wrote it all down in his journal. So here’s a guy, who’s right in the middle of the computer revolution in Silicon Valley, a world-class computer scientist at the time, and he’s right in the middle of the parapsychology thing, and right in the middle of the UFO thing, and he wrote it all down. And that’s what we’re going to talk about here on Skeptiko.

    Now, this interview covers a lot of ground in the one hour we had and I did have the chance to ask Dr. Vallée directly about the UFO consciousness link that we were talking about on the last episode of Skeptiko and I thought his answer was quite interesting.

    Alex Tsakiris: …I hear people use your work as a manifesto against little grey men in spaceships from other planets, [but] I don’t know how you get around that data.

    Dr. Jacques Vallée: You’ll have to get out of these little boxes, you know, physics on my left and psychology on my right, you can’t do that, you cannot do that in dealing with UFOs. What I’m saying is you cannot do that anymore in dealing with astrophysics. The problem that scientists have today is that time and space, the way we were thinking about them, don’t make sense when you begin to deal with particle entanglement and with entanglement of larger physical things. So we’re going to get to the same place eventually.

    There you go; for me – someone interested in using science to find deep spirituality – ‘everyone getting to the same place’ sounds just about perfect.

    Stay tuned, this is a good one. My interview with Dr. Jacques Vallée is next on Skeptiko.
     
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  2. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    Haven't listened yet but can't wait. Well done Alex for getting him on!
     
  3. D.R.Alit

    D.R.Alit Member

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    Alex, you forgot to ask Dr Vallee' about the demon theory!
     
  4. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's question at the end of the podcast:

    What do you make of the "ordinary" way Dr. Valee talks about such extraordinary events--particularly extraordinary science--and does this reflect some deeper knowledge about things that most of us just don't know about?
     
  5. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    Bang! When Skeptiko nails it, it really nails it. Well done Alex.

    Something related.....

    Here's an audio of the late, ahem, consciousness explorer Terrence McKenna talking about his encounter with a UFO and the false dichotomies between psychological, real, hallucinatory, etc.

    You know, like, is it a wave or a particle?



    P.S. There's an annoying 10 minute blank patch, but the talk is still worth checking out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  6. KindaGamey

    KindaGamey Member

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    I want to reply to this thread just so I get notified every time someone responds. Great show!
     
  7. questioner

    questioner Member

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    Very good show. I have a question about Uri Geller. The skeptics in particular James Randi claims to have successfully debunked Geller. I recall a possible lawsuit the skeptics won against Geller. At any rate, what did the skeptics debunk and is Geller real or a fraud?
     
  8. Alex

    Alex New

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    ok, but the problem with McKenna's blurring of form and consciousness is that it doesn't take long until we reach the nonsensical... and while that might be where we wind up it's not where most of us live :)

    so, if McKenna's UFO appeared out of the mist and returned there, and if that means all material objects do the same then what's the point doing anything. I like playing the consensus reality game... at least a little bit :)
     
  9. Alex

    Alex New

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    I don't know for sure, but based on the interviews I've listened to with Geller I suspect that he was combining stage magic with his skills during some of his public appearances. Randi probably caught him when he was doing so.

    I've also heard mentalists report that the reverse can happen... i.e. stage magicians and mentalists have unexplainable events show up in their act.

    remember this episode and the story of Mark's dad:
    http://skeptiko.com/77-mark-ireland-psychic-medium-communication/
     
  10. Congressional hearings on UFOs would be a waste of time. Congress is a puppet of the shadow government.
    If the intelligence community (shadow government) wants to keep UFO's secret, congress will only support their agenda.

    There might be some secrets that are best kept secret, but the shadow government has gotten way out of hand. People are being murdered, elected officials no longer run the government. Half the country is suffering from mass hysteria. Cultural Marxism (identity politics - everyone is oppressed by someone else ) has taken over academia and Google and is spreading throughout society. We have been at war 16 years and we are not at war against any identified enemy which could be defeated. We are at war against "terrorism" which is a tactic. People protesting against racism are attacking protests that include blacks and Jews supporting free speech. The mainstream media are complicit, they are controlled. Society is going haywire and it is not an accident. When Trump won the election, the shadow government had a panic attack and many people believe they are aiming to make their de facto control je jure in the aftermath of a provoked a civil war.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  11. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    I need some time to process this.....
     
  12. Alex

    Alex New

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    totally agree! but allow me to bring this back on topic by connecting it to Vallee's talk about biz and venture capital. there's a pragmatism to his path... much needed.
     
  13. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    Is Cultural Marxism even a thing? As far as I'm aware it's a pejorative term used to describe an obscure and spectacularly unsuccessful branch of Marxist theory. And Marxism itself is no more than a tool of analysis (economic and historical). A tool that, like science, has it's uses when not mistaken for an ultimate arbiter of truth.

    I also feel you're unfairly caricaturing identity politics. Yes it has its limitations and idiots, but certain groups of people do face specific problems (racism/sexism/etc.).

    Many Marxists are also pretty frosty to the 'intersectional' crew, btw.

    Peace.

    Edit: Sorry to continue the drift off topic.
     
  14. Alex

    Alex New

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    no worries... but let's get back on topic. I think it will make for a more interesting discussion. I mean, all this stuff relates to 359.

    pls see: http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/forum-rules-please-read-before-posting.4/#post-119456

    one quick additional thought -- it's more fun when it's relevant. there are a million places to go to talk about a million different things. It good/nice/fun to have a place to go to to talk about the show you just heard. I so wish I had this for all the podcasts I listen to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  15. K9!

    K9! New

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    I think after many years of looking into this material it does become "ordinary", but not in a bad way. It's just how things are and Vallee is going about investigating "how things are" in a very sensible manner.

    There is a real challenge in addressing the unknown without getting sidetracked by those who don't want us to think clearly about these topics... the cults, the people with books to sell, and individuals or groups with an interest in discrediting the scientific study of anomalies. Vallee has managed to overcome this issue in a way that few others have. He has pointed out the need for basics such as a comprehensive database of information on UFO sightings. He has helped to set up companies doing the types of scientific analysis required for his latest work on isotopic analysis of anomalous aerial artifacts. And he quietly continues to collect data and preserve it as best he can.

    For people who have mystical experiences and encounters with the unknown, I think it's almost impossible not to go off the rails and have difficulty integrating the experience for a return to normal. But those who do sometimes come back and really engage in this reality. "Normal" may have changed for them, but this life and this reality are a gift, full of challenges and puzzles worthy of being explored. Perhaps Vallee came back from his own UFO experience as a young man changed in such a way.
     
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  16. Bucky

    Bucky Member

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    Probably both. In his early days with Targ and Puthoff he seem to have done shown pretty amazing feats, but the guy is also a showman and using stage magic was also part of his repertoire, especially later in his career. He's the quintessential trickster.

    cheers
     
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  17. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    If Geller ever had any psi powers, and it's difficult to say either way, I think they've long since deserted him. He never reproduced them under laboratory conditions, and his predictions in recent years have been way off. Wasn't he caught bending spoons on a green room surveillance camera, or was that sceptic propaganda? You'd have thought Uri would want to do his thing behind the closed doors of a lab at least once, without his patter or distraction techniques or showmanship, just for the record.
     
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  18. KindaGamey

    KindaGamey Member

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    Not only did Geller convince many people of how genuine his powers are, but I'm certain he was convinced himself and he had the kind of curiosity which was really interested in understanding the phenomenon and not just self-aggrandizing. He wanted to know too. He tells of trying these things over and over (e.g. spoon bending) as a boy. I think he had just the kind of stick-to-it'ness and exuberance to think it would work, and it amazingly did. (Which is an interesting argument of sorts. What if rather than skepticism setting us free from blind faith, it is actually cutting us off from our true human potential? Remember, no one could run a minute mile until we believed we could.)

    Did you ever hear that John Lennon gave Uri Geller a stone that he said he got from his NY alien sighting? It's true, look it up. Geller believes it is a real artifact. I'm wondering if John was kind of winding him up as a joke or if that's really where the stone came from.

    Uri Geller also worked Israeli Intelligence. You think they'd diddle around with a guy who was really just doing magic tricks to enemy spies and ambassadors? Uri is certainly a showman, but he does have a rich history and the people closest to him believe him. After his celebrity was gone he set up a company helping industries find oil -- they fly him over spots and he tells them where to drill. You think corporate america would throw away their hard earned dollars so easily on a charlatan?

    I personally hate the Amazing Randi. He's done a huge disservice to the human race and is just as complicit in being a charlatan (as well as an investigator of fantastical claims* and someone who truly wants to root out fakers and attention-seekers.) That was one of the most interesting parts of the talk with Vallee was the fantastical ruminations about all the back-peddling and mea culpas the skeptics of the world will have to do. Personally I can't wait. And honestly, they're probably just like us -- they want to believe but their brains won't let them. Some people can't handle uncertainty. (Like Republicans <-- haha!)

    * Ugh, I saw a guy with a shirt that said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" last week. It's a Carl Sagan quote and big ups to Carl, but I'm not sure his worshipers are the kind of open-minded weed smokers that he was. Also he may have been secretly involved with the UFO issue behind the scenes which is why he had to publicly deny and condemn it.
     
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  19. http://www.urigeller.com/scientific-paranormal/the-geller-papers/

    “Investigating the paranormal.” An editorial from Nature.
    “Information transmission under conditions of sensory shielding.”; Harold E. Puthoff, Ph.D., and Russell Targ Stanford Research Institute, Menlo Park California,
    “The record: eight days with Uri Geller.”; Harold E. Puthoff, Ph.D., and Russell Targ, Stanford Research Institute, Menlo Park, California.
    “Experiments with Uri Geller.” Harold E. Puthoff Ph.D., and Russell Targ, Stanford Research Institute, Menlo Park California.
    “Uri Geller’s influence on the metal alloy nitinol.” Eldon Byrd, Naval Surface Weapons Center, White Oak Laboratory, Silver Spring Maryland.
    “Fracture surface physics indicating teleneural interaction.” Wilbur Franklin, Ph.D., Department of Physics, Kent State University, Kent, Ohio.
    “Metal fracture physics using scanning electron microscopy and the theory of teleneural interactions.” Wilbur Franklin, Ph.D., Department of Physics, Kent State University, Kent, Ohio.
    “Uri’s Magic.” Thelma Moss, Ph.D., The Neuropsychiatric Institute, Center for the Health Sciences, University of California at Los Angeles.
    “Magnetic pattern erasure: a proposed method of scientific study.” Ronald S. Hawke, Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, Livermore, California.
    “Filmed and nonfilmed events: on Uri Geller’s visit to Western Kentucky University.” Thomas P. Coohill, Ph.D., Physics Department, Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, Kentucky.
    “A preliminary scrutiny of Uri Geller.” William E. Cox, The Institute for Parapsychology, Foundation for Research on the Nature of Man, Durham, North Carolina.
    “On the issue of Uri Geller and his claims.” William E. Cox, The Institute for Parapsychology, Foundation for Research on the Nature of Man, Durham, North Carolina.
    “Official Report: Society of American Magicians, Assembly 30, Atlanta Chapter.” The Occult Investigations Committee, Artur Zorka, Chairman. (Including an exchange of letters by members of the Society of American Magicians, written after release of the Official Report.)
    “Thought photography: a photographer’s account.” Lawrence Fried, President of the American Society of Media Photographers, The Society of Photographers in Communications; Director of Photography, The Image Bank, Inc.



    Canada




    “Uri Geller’s metal phenomena: an eyewitness account.” A. R. G. Owen, Ph.D., Executive Director, New Horizons Research Foundation, Toronto, Ontario.



    England




    “Experiments on psychokinetic phenomena.” J. B. Hasted, Ph.D., and D. J. Bohm, Ph.D., Birkbeck College, University of London; E. W. Bastin, Ph.D., Language Research Unit, Cambridge University; and B. O’Regan, M. S., Institute of Noetic Sciences, Palo Alto, California.
    “My Geller Notebooks.” J. B. Hasted, Ph.D., Department of Physics, Birkbeck College, University of London. (Two excerpts from an unpublished manuscript.)
    “A brief report on a visit by Uri Geller to King’s College, London, June 20, 1974.” John G. Taylor, Ph.D., Department of Mathematics, King’s College, University of London.
    “Analyzing the Geller Effect.” John G. Taylor, Ph.D., Department of Mathematics, King’s College, University of London.
    “Report on a meeting with Uri Geller.” E. W. Bastin, Ph.D., et al., Language Research Unit, Cambridge University.



    France




    “The Uri Geller Report.” Albert Ducrocq, Ph.D., INSERM Telemetry Laboratories, Foch Hospital, Suresnes.



    Denmark




    “A magician looks at Uri Geller.” An excerpt, translated from the Danish book, Uri Geller, by Leo Leslie.



    South Africa




    “The Uri Geller Effect. (Part 1)” E. Alan Price, M. D., The South African Institute for Parapsychology, Johannesburg.​
     
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  20. http://www.urigeller.com/category/testimonials/quotes-from-magicians/

    Quotes From Magicians

    The Creative mind of Uri Geller has significantly advanced the world of mentalism. No matter what your opinion may be concerning Mr. Geller’s career, there is no question as to the magnitude of his impact on the field.

    Max Maven

    “Uri Geller is a hard one to take because what he presents to modern science and the common man is at first unbelievable. Yet, after knowing him very closely for nearly five years, I have observed his unusual energy in person in many countries. These have not been lab conditions… they did not have to be. Whether it was glass shattering spontaneously at hand, or an exact telepathic rendering of my day done over international phone wires; I have come to appreciate what part is showmanship; and what part is, quite literally, real.
    Modern science must know that when Einstein split the atom that the mysteries therein would confound common notion. Uri presents the same type of mystery. Harboring an energy that seems to pervade existence, yet is difficult to harness, Uri has withstood the naysayers and the abusive critics. It is not a matter of talent that keeps him alive. Uri has a life situation, that not many people can appreciate unless they experience it first hand. With a magician’s eye for deceit I watched Uri in the first several years of knowing him. Not only did I find him earnest in his beliefs, but a loving husband, father, and a man of elegance, style and generosity.
    His psychic gifts are genuine and he provides a model for humanity at large to aspire to.”

    Ben Robinson (Winner of Milbourne Christopher Foundation Award, Society of American Magicians Leslie R. Guest Award, and author of legendary book, Twelve Have Died – U.S.A.)

    “Uri Geller is a superb showman, in fact that is what Gellerism is all about. There is no gimmicked apparatus involved, just pure showmanship that proves successful under nearly all conditions.”
    Ben Harris (Magician and author of Gellerism Revealed – Australia)

    “There is no way, based on my knowledge as a magician, that any method of trickery could have been used to produce the effects under the conditions to which Geller was subjected.”
    Arthur Zorka (US, member Society of American Magicians – U.S.A.)

    “If … he genuinely does what he claims to by the methods he claims to use, then he is the only person in the world who can do it. If on the other hand he is a magician or a trickster or a con-man, he is also phenomenal – the best there has ever been. So, whichever way you want to look at him, we must respect him as one or the other.”

    David Berglas (Great Britain’s leading magical entertainer, President of the Magic Circle and holder of numerous international honours – England)



    You know, I like Uri Geller. He is a good guy. I think he made many things with his abilities. I think some of the things he shows are illusion. But I cannot claim for sure, that this applies to everything.

    David Copperfield

    Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I’ve never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn’t recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person.

    David Blaine

    The man is a natural magician. He does everything with great care, meticulous misdirection and flawless instinct. The nails are real, the keys are really borrowed, the envelopes are actually sealed, there are no stooges, there are no secret radio devices and there are no props from the magic catalogues. He is a consummate performer, and had he arrived in true colours as a conjurer, he’d have found no more ardent supporter than this magician.

    James Randi (In an open letter to Abracadabra Magazine)

    “”As a magician, I believe that the tests we did (with Geller) could not be duplicated in any way by a magician’s methods.”
    Abb Dickson (Professional magician – U.S.A. and President of the International Brotherhood of Magicians 1997-98)

    On his trip to Australia, over thirty years ago, (my place of residence at the time). As a journalist, I was invited to attend a lunch/press conference at a restaurant, where all the invitees duly assembled. The Australian media will go out of their way to debunk anyone or anything they can. It sells papers and makes good TV.

    Mindful of the possibility that Geller may have tampered with the cutlery, a series of taxis had been assembled to take the guests to a restaurant known only to one of the journos – where the cutlery was genuinely heavy duty. After going into several simple ESP effects, the spoon effect was brought up. I, personally, selected one at random from a distant table. Geller had one of the ladies present hold one end between her thumb and forefinger, with the proviso that if she felt any pressure – up or down – to just let go. I was sitting next to both, watching very closely. Geller held one end of the spoon and stroked it with two fingers of his hand and it started to bend quite significantly. The lady holding the other end felt no pressures or force whatever.
    I have witnessed close-up magic all my life. If Geller achieved this result through “sleight of hand” – or whatever else – I deem it far more remarkable than had it been accomplished by some “mystical force.”
    …No question that Geller has cheated at numerous times. I have witnessed it. That in and of itself does not invalidate the account that I have given.
    …I am a skeptic by nature – and realize that “seeing is believing” can be a very much mistaken notion. On the occasion in question, I personally selected the spoon and handed it to Geller, sitting next to him and without averting my eyes for a moment. I have seen many fairly convincing “cutlery benders”, but none that come in the least close to that particular event.
    …The Geller episode is related in a previous post to you. I stand by it and, despite being the devout skeptic that I am, must confirm that I was not tricked.
    Regards,

    David Gellman
    There are four more pages at the link
     
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