Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Aug 29, 2017.
If that were true, you would be able to point out a better Center than our current Center.
Long time reader of the forum … never felt compelled to post as members have generally represented my thoughts one way or another. However, since Dr. Vallee is one of my favorite thinkers … this seemed like the time to post. Thanks Alex for interviewing him. I too don’t remember Dr. Vallee ever mentioning this business of material from UFOs being retrieved, analyzed and initially looking to be something obviously not natural on earth. Another addition to the mystery of UFO physicality or for some physicality VS consciousness … though for many of us this is a false dichotomy. It must be both. After all, everything is “both” so why not UFOs being the same. “Either or” is not the base reality. Therefore, the UFO is material. There are intelligent entities that somehow control the object or put another way … the UFO is a representation of a form of controlled structured consciousness. This must be … just as it must be with all other material (electrons, people, etc.). It seems consensus reality happens when more than one conscious entity observes (an object, trees, a form, a dream, etc.) and shares these observations simultaneously with the other(s), each other. This is the act of creation. Creation must be a continuous process ... never ending … always evolving. The UFO is another demonstration of this truth.
The normal isotope ratios come from some obscure physics about the various reaction schema by which these elements are formed in supernovae, and their relative rates. However, if, say, someone/something can visualise some element into existence by pure thought, those ratios needn't be followed at all - just a thought! I.e. you aren't making stuff from previous stuff, that ultimately got made in a star, you are just making it de-novo.
I was a bit surprised that he talked as though measuring those ratios - at least for the lighter elements - was a big deal. Surely all you need is a good mass spectrograph!
great point. I don't understand the fuss.
also, don't understand the argument, "... any civilization that advanced wouldn't need to [fill in the blank]"
- leave implants
- ride space ships
- gather minerals/water/resources
I don't see how we could make such assumptions.
That wasn't my point. Which was aliens are incompetent at hiding themselves, or they don't care either way. If it's the latter, they may as well reveal their existence to earth's inhabitants. If they're playing a long game it's very long indeed. If we're lab rats, aliens don't need to poke around in the bushes and people's rectums, because they already know what's up there.
Anyone hoping for the space brothers to beam us up should be disconcerted by their similarity to the less attractive aspects of humanity (overbearing materialism, invasion of personal space, show off toys, control freakery, passive aggressiveness, etc).
In the old interview above, Vallee relates the case of a French doctor who, after a close encounter, developed a range of PSI abilities and a strange annually recurring geometric stigmata (am I misusing that word?). I've heard other cases of greatly enhanced PSI abilities after 'contact'.... so, it seems UFOs have the ability to greatly affect the consciousness of those who interact with them.
Interestingly, McKenna believed that the broad purpose of the Mushroom/DMT Elves/Whatever was to help us to evolve a language capable of expressing/grasping progressively higher and more profound concepts. Maybe a language better suited to navigating the ins and outs of a conscious universe.
Is it just me or do these two points seem related?
McKenna was a wit and a contrarian, but many of his points were those of a high grade late night pub conversation. There are no shortage of maybes in Ufology, but few you'd bet your house on. Imbibing industrial quantities of natural or manufactured chemical compounds in the hope one or two might open the doors of perception, is akin to playing the lottery in the expectation one might win. Possible, but I wouldn't plan my lifestyle on a successful outcome. Aliens may make the trip, but not in the way McKenna might imply. UFOs look like sufficiently like tech to follow that line of enquiry in preference to a dreamstate. First contact is informed by writers like Iain M. Banks and Isaac Asimov, and the protocols of Star Trek plotlines as anything tangible.
I gave up a close reading of the data when I realised people referred to UFOs and Klingons in the same sentence.
Ok, a bit harsh, but I do get your point on McKenna. And yes, we haven't got much more than maybes. Very tricky.
But I still consider people's experiences as valuable, if subjective, data and many UFO folk do describe their contacts as involving a deeply altered state of consciousness. Rick Strassman's DMT experiments also threw up remarkable parallels with 'alien' encounters. Plus, both abductees and psychedelic travelers report being involved in a process of education of some sort.
And finally, while the phenomena may turn out to be ultimately unknowable.... I still think humanity stands to gain by tilting at the UFO windmill.
P.S. I'm not denying a tech element to UFOs, but I also have a broad definition of tech.
P.P.S. Your late night pub banter is obviously far classier than mine!
Ok, here's one for you.....
Maybe the alien's civilization is in the grip of a flying-saucer-industrial-complex. So, the saucer company keeps bribing the interstellar politicians to mount pointless saucer expeditions all over the place!
Or they're introducing themselves by influencing the minds of sci-fi writers as to their nature. Which has actually been said. That sounds like fake mediums caught in the act of pulling cheesecloth out of their fannies saying the evil spirits made them do it this time.
I'm not up to speed on the latest abduction talk, but the ones I've read sound more like a psychedelic trip than a positive NDE. There must be quicker routes to peace, love and understanding than whisking random folk to the mothership for some mind-altering content.
I also think UFOs/trips/faerie encounters/etc. are in a different category to NDEs, and they are strange, contradictory and seemingly culturally mediated experiences.... but the experiencers themselves are often profoundly changed by their contact with this phenomena.... I find this fascinating.
Edit: One thing UFO and NDE experiencers do have in common is the potential of an increased PSI ability.
Alex, fantastic show! Congratulations! Jacques Vallée is something of a hero of mine and this is the best interview I have ever heard with him. His quote to the effect that he would be very disappointed if the UFO phenomenon were ONLY little green men in spaceships has always stayed with me, as well as his emphasis on the bizarre nature of so many encounters (Mckenna's account of the UFO with the Hoover Vacuum cleaner cap structure) or the ET's who made pancakes. Clearly, NDE's, UFO encounters, PSI, dreams, psychedelic experiences etc.... they are all connected. That is the puzzle we are trying to solve and which Jung so well described in Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky
One of the highlights of this interview for me was to hear Dr. Vallée discuss the isotopes of the fragments from UFO's and the numeric relationships they have to the same metals from earth and to those from meteors. If I understood correctly, he was implying that the value was not arbitrary- that it was significant. This is very interesting from a Pythagorean or Platonic point of view (not to mention what the simulation theory folks could do with this). I just want to add from a personal experience of mine recently with 5-MeO-DMT where I was 'out' for over an hour when usually these trips last 15 minutes or so. That dimension is so beyond description, but UFO's, bending spoons and martians making pancakes is just about the only way to describe how sublime, beautiful, and, lets not forget, funny, yes, mind bendingly hysterically funny.
Thanks again Alex for this show and all your work. Came home yesterday after a particularly annoying day and thought to myself, wouldn't it be great if Alex had a new show and I can relax with a drink and listen to a good conversation, and look what I found!!
Can I ask you a question? Ok, I mentioned above that many UFO and NDE people report heightened PSI abilities after their experiences.... do you know if DMT users report the same thing as a consequence of their DMT use?
I am certainly no expert, but I have been very interested in this topic for a long time and experienced it. I am not sure it actually heightens PSI abilities, though that seems like an extremely fertile area for investigation, but what it does do is radically change people's outlook and create permanent change. Think of it this way, the most profound and spectacular NDE (I've never had one but have read about and heard about many), my experience was on that scale or more. I really, really, really, didn't want to come back, I had made it to the other side, but, eventually, I did come back, and that gradual return to this dimension explained so much about our limitations.
Hope that helps..
Really, Vallée nails it by saying this is an informational universe.
All of our debates about material and immaterial kind of evaporate under that rubric.
Is it a gas, solid, liquid, or a glass of ice water in a hot steamy room?
It's kind of interesting our developing the computer helped advance the understanding of information as a thing in itself in the first giant leap since the Greeks started thinking about deep stuff. Oh my god, I just found out that Jaques' middle name is Fabrice.
What gives me hope is that information has no limits or boundaries that aren't self-imposed.
That could also be a scary thought, I guess, but I choose for it not to be.
This book is recommended in the video.
Both the video and the book describe psi experiences as a result of psychedelic use.
The idea that psychedelics can facilitate psi is not a new thing.
^ That was awesome. Nothing on TV is unscripted anymore. No surprises.
I don't remember where I've posted the link to my 7-hits of LSD The Telepathy Experience. I'm sure I've slung it around here plenty.
Basically, when I was in college (I'm 44 now) a buddy and I went out to a cabin on a lake that my parents owned 40 minutes away from Richmond, VA (Cumberland). I was a proud science-loving material realist bible-thumper-thumping atheist. I had tripped before, but never experienced talking toothbrushes or elves and never hallucinated anything where I couldn't differentiate what was reality and what wasn't - it was more like the delayed trails of your hand when smoking a cigarette, the trees being super-green, patterns shimmering and waving and the like, but that was it. The movies make it seem way more intense. I really wanted to bust the doors of perception wide open, so we brought 7 hits each to take. We probably smoked some weed too. (If I had known about DMT then I would have requested that instead.)
Really though, it was just more of the same: more intense wavy patterns, longer cigarette trails, greener trees, but nothing fundamentally different except for the intensity. We loved to philosophize about the universe, but we were having trouble finishing our sentences and would just trail off into a mumble instead of finishing them. It got frustrating. Rather than attempting to talk anymore, my buddy put Yes' Tales from Topographic Oceans on the CD player and we put the speakers out on the deck to broadcast over the lake. We had already built a bonfire outside so we went and sat by it on logs, holding our knees to our chests, and just stared into the fire.
My brain is very active and I talk to myself in my head often, but my brain started "saying" things I didn't expect, which seemed unusual. It was still my "voice"/vocal timbre in my head, but rather than playing out a dialogue of my own devising I was a little bit taken aback by what it was saying.
Actual sounds: total human silence, probably crickets, the fire roaring, the music playing
Me, in my head: "Am I talking to myself or am I talking to you, dude?"
Voice in my head: "I think you're talking to me, dude"
Me: "If I'm talking to you then say something out loud, right now."
Voice in my head: "I wouldn't know what to say." / Feelings of embarrassment
Me: "Well I'm not saying anything, I totally wouldn't know what to say" / Feelings of embarrassment
Voice in my head: "Say something about the drums."
(A thing my buddy is totally apt to say. You know you have friends who always pick out certain tracks in music? My buddy always hears the drum track separately whereas I hear the whole thing. It was at this point that the music was going crazy with this really intense drum part and we were both feeling the intensity.)
Me: "No way, YOU say something about the drums."
Then the hairs stood up on my neck (as they do every time I retell it), and I turned to my buddy, and he turned toward me and looked scared as hell like I was going to think he was crazy (or an idiot) and he said, out loud, "something about the drums."
I shouted "What the FUCK~!" and jumped up and ran to the other side of the bonfire because I didn't want to be anywhere near him. He was an invader in my private space. It was at that point that my head made a HUGE cracking sound (which I think was my world-view physically breaking in my head) and I kind of doubled over. I got this this feeling almost like looking down and seeing the convexity of the planet below me and sensing every human being on the planet was connected by a red string -- I just KNEW that everyone was connected telepathically all of the time and anytime we pretend to be someone we aren't or put on airs or lie or backstab -- there is a plane of existence where it's so obvious. Laughably obvious. We think we're getting away with something and we're just not. I laughed a huge belly laugh at how silly we are. I've tried to be as authentic a person as I can be ever since.
I shouted to my friend, "What the hell was that!?"
He shouted back, "I don't know."
I said, "Was it God? Was it aliens?"
He said, "I don't know," and I thought that was profound for some reason.
I wondered for years later why I asked about God and aliens when it was obviously telepathy. I'm convinced now that there might have been a third party that handed me that revelation about truth and authenticity otherwise why would I ask such things? It makes no sense. I didn't believe in either of those things at the time.
The rest of the night we talked with our heads. It was easy, like second nature. Like I could have come out of the womb doing that. I'd feel words mixed with emotions. Maybe the words were my translation? It didn't feel like it. The "voice" was always kind of my own vocal timbre though, as if it was me. He could go off to the cabin and pee and I'd stand on the beach and I'd still be talking to him. (If it was a wave // which I doubt // it traveled through wood logs + concrete.) It was instantaneous and it always contained empathy. Like if there was a mean dog growling at you you'd understand the back-story of the dog and why it was so mean and have a hard time just blaming the surface happening independently. We would occasionally stop and replay the head conversation with our mouths to make sure we weren't just fooling ourselves,
Me: "ok, and then you said __xxx__"
Him: "yes! and then you responded __xxx___"
Me: "yup. ok it really works."
The next day the telepathy was gone. I had dreams of working with psi scientists and being studied like a lab rat. We made psi cards (wavy lines, circles, squares, etc.) and started ordering LSD off the internet to try and re-create the telepathy, but it didn't work in our "laboratory setting." We did WORSE than random chance each time we tried. Dice would have gotten better results. I did tons of LSD that summer trying to recreate this thing.
Anyway, I've been a freak ever since. The first thing that started to break me down was, "if I could be wrong about telepathy and it really does exist, what else have I dismissed that might be real???" I've been searching ever since. Of course, anyone of a scientific nature completely dismissed my claim and said it was just because I was tripping, it's a hallucination, you just imagined it, etc.. Excuses. They wouldn't even hear me out. That taught me a lot too.
My buddy and I don't talk anymore. He unfriended me on facebook. I think my telling the story embarrasses him. He's got a rather prominent position as a professor and tries to deny it happened now. Back then he was religious and I converted him to atheism and now he's the atheist and I'm the spiritual(?) weirdo. One weird thing is that we met up years later (to go to a Yes show actually) and I retold the story as I knew it and he said, "I tell it the exact same way except in my version you're the one who says 'something about the drums'. I find that odd. I wish I could be hypnotically regressed back to that night to know what the hell really happened.
Anyway, that's my story.
That's good. A lot of people don't want to ask that question. They are so afraid of admitting they were wrong and of having their world view turned upside down that they go into denial about the original experience.
People don't like to admit they were wrong. That's one reason I think it can do more harm than good to debate skeptics. Every time you force them to defend their position it increases their resistance to accepting that they could be wrong.
One thing that sent me searching far and wide was the realization that the side that resorted to ridicule and personal attacks was the one without the facts to support their views.
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” ― Socrates
Well, it was new to me (at least as an enduring feature)! Fascinating info, thanks.
This is the astounding thing to me about UFOs/NDEs/Ayahuasca - how an experiencer's relationship to time and space can be permanently changed by brushing up against them.....
Beautiful, but an intense realization to ingest! I suppose the only comfort is that it seems those on 'the other side' are an understanding lot.
Sounds truly amazing. I'm super keen to try DMT, but am such an uptight schmuck that I fear I'd control freak myself into a bad place.
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