Dr. Jeffrey Kripal Explores the Erotic in the Mystical & Religious |369|

[Alex]

In the interview you mentioned Gloria Steinem being an operative of the CIA. I watched a video where she discusses this and it sounded to me like she simply received a grant from the CIA. I didn't catch where she became a operative or where the CIA was trying to influence a movement. I'm not sure that receiving a grant from the CIA influenced the movement anymore than say a grant from the Ford Foundation. (Not to defend the CIA or Gloria Steinem).

thx for bringing up this point... it was a little bit of inside baseball but something we've discussed on previous episodes:
Joseph Atwill, Why is the Deep State Interested in ... - Skeptiko

the bottom line is that she's been outed as a lifetime CIA operative. she tried to spin it as a one-time thing, but the evidence is overwhelming.

of course the real question is ignored -- WTF is the deep state doing trying to shape culture in this way!

 

[Alex]

Why would he dodge the question? Serious question.

I don't think there was anything sinister about it... I mean, we all have a hard time admitting we're wrong about stuff.

 

[K9!]

I disagree. the data is overwhelmingly positive re NDE experiences:
Dr. Jeffrey Long's, God and the Afterlife – Science ... - Skeptiko

Oh come on... Jeff Long does NOT want to hear about negative NDEs. He and his wife have a very clear love and light agenda and they don't want to hear about anything that goes against that POV. I know this from personal experience. NDERF makes people with "bad" NDEs feel unwelcome, so no wonder Long's "database" tends to be skewed.

 

[K9!]

great. pls tell us one or two things you really liked.

I like that it provides a better understanding of Jeff's history in dealing with attacks by religious fundamentalists as well as his struggles with anorexia as a young man, and how those experiences led up to his later work. (Which is what his new book is probably about.)

 

[garry]

Oh come on... Jeff Long does NOT want to hear about negative NDEs. He and his wife have a very clear love and light agenda and they don't want to hear about anything that goes against that POV. I know this from personal experience. NDERF makes people with "bad" NDEs feel unwelcome, so no wonder Long's "database" tends to be skewed.

I sometimes do Dutch to English translations for Jody Long and, not to be contradictory, I didn't find the experiencer account questionnaire to be biased as they were asked whether they had a pleasant or "distressing" experience. Often those subjected to distressing experiences needed a correction in the life they were leading so even this was to the good as they changed their ways to become better human beings afterwards. A well known example is that of Rev. Howard Storm.

 

[Alex]

Oh come on... Jeff Long does NOT want to hear about negative NDEs. He and his wife have a very clear love and light agenda and they don't want to hear about anything that goes against that POV. I know this from personal experience. NDERF makes people with "bad" NDEs feel unwelcome, so no wonder Long's "database" tends to be skewed.

you're claiming that his research is completely fraudulent. that's quite a claim. I don't see any basis for it.

 

[Wormwood]

Oh come on... Jeff Long does NOT want to hear about negative NDEs. He and his wife have a very clear love and light agenda and they don't want to hear about anything that goes against that POV. I know this from personal experience. NDERF makes people with "bad" NDEs feel unwelcome, so no wonder Long's "database" tends to be skewed.

Im part of a couple of very large and very active Facebook communities that involve NDE's. The pages (one in particular) are flooded with NDE experiencers. I get the same impression from these facebook pages as I get from Longs research. There are hundreds of accounts on these pages that people have volunteered and a whole ton of discussion between experiencers and non-experiencers. The general vibe of both of these pages is the "Love and Light" angle as borne out by the people volunteering there experiences. Distressing NDE's do come up, people post their distressing experiences on these pages, and they are real, and people may be less likely to report a bad experience than a good one. But I've yet to encounter any research or encounter any group of experiencers who (as a collection) do no feel that NDE's are, generally, very positive experiences. I talk to these people daily and have become friends with many of them in these groups. What I encounter in these groups is the same sort of info and vibe that I encounter in Dr Longs research. dNDE's may be more common than we think, if people are not coming forward as frequently due to embarassment, but they definitely seem a minority. And of the ones that do occur, a good deal of them end positive, or, after they are worked out in their life, can be often seen as positive. But there are still some people who have a horrible experience and it has a negative influence on their life. But it's really hard to find examples of this. But again, granted, it may be that these people are less likely to come forward. Certainly there are more than we know.

Nancy Evans Bush wrote this book on dNDE's. https://www.amazon.com/Dancing-Past...id=1514910258&sr=8-1&keywords=distressing+nde

The book was decent, far from great, but it does a decent job at making SOME sense of dNDE's. Bush herself was a dNDE expriencer.

There has been some research on the prevalence of dNDE's in contrast to the more commonly reported pleasurable ones. Some of that research is talked about in Bush's book. Depending upon what study you look at, on the low end dNDE's are reported as occurring only 2 percent of the time, and, on the high end, 1/6th of the time. I know nothing of the quality of this research, but the 1 in 6 figure I definitely remember from Bush's book and I believe it was echoed on the IANDS website. Some info about prevalence can be found on this part of IANDS. https://iands.org/ndes/about-ndes/distressing-ndes.html#a2

I havent looked at the studies personally and am unsure of their quality.

 

[K9!]

you're claiming that his research is completely fraudulent. that's quite a claim. I don't see any basis for it.

Distressing NDEs are under-reported at the best of times. Most people don't want to talk about them. And most researchers don't really want to hear about them. It's just human nature. Would you rather listen to stories about heaven, or stories about hell? Or how about listening to your neighbor tell you about a happy event in their life (ie. the birth of a child) vs a tragic one (ie. rape)? Unless a researcher goes looking for those distressing NDEs, and is really open to hearing them... they will be missing from the data.

The NDERF website is not a welcoming place for those who have had scary experiences. If anything, it tends to make those who have had dNDEs feel they they must be bad people, or maybe what they experienced wasn't a "true" NDE. And if a dNDEr goes to a website and asks questions about having a dNDE and the conversation is quickly shut down, then that experience will not make it into the database.

The researchers may not even realize that things have been set up to confirm their a priori beliefs. I'm sure they had good intentions. But I don't think the distressing events are making it into the database.

If you set up a website asking people to tell about the most influential event of their life, and the website is covered with angels, clouds and other beautiful images... why would someone feel as if that was an appropriate place to talk about going through hell?

 

[garry]

Reply to post by wormwood:
One in six, eh... Not meaning any harm by this suggestion, but could there be as much as one in six sort of rotten people in this world at any one time? ...just figurin'

 

[Alex]

Distressing NDEs are under-reported at the best of times. Most people don't want to talk about them. And most researchers don't really want to hear about them. It's just human nature. Would you rather listen to stories about heaven, or stories about hell? Or how about listening to your neighbor tell you about a happy event in their life (ie. the birth of a child) vs a tragic one (ie. rape)? Unless a researcher goes looking for those distressing NDEs, and is really open to hearing them... they will be missing from the data.

The NDERF website is not a welcoming place for those who have had scary experiences. If anything, it tends to make those who have had dNDEs feel they they must be bad people, or maybe what they experienced wasn't a "true" NDE. And if a dNDEr goes to a website and asks questions about having a dNDE and the conversation is quickly shut down, then that experience will not make it into the database.

The researchers may not even realize that things have been set up to confirm their a priori beliefs. I'm sure they had good intentions. But I don't think the distressing events are making it into the database.

If you set up a website asking people to tell about the most influential event of their life, and the website is covered with angels, clouds and other beautiful images... why would someone feel as if that was an appropriate place to talk about going through hell?

again, I just don't see any basis for claims regarding this RESEARCH. you oughta contact NDERF and see what they say re their RESEARCH methods.

 

[K9!]

again, I just don't see any basis for claims regarding this RESEARCH. you oughta contact NDERF and see what they say re their RESEARCH methods.

If you set up a website to collect data, and that website is set up to collect a very skewed set of experiences... then your research methodology is flawed. I have been in contact with Jodi Long in the past, since Jeff doesn't make himself available to members of his forum. I didn't find her very welcoming. Are you saying that the website is not their only means of collecting accounts? Because the website is definitely not set up in a neutral way.

I just went to the NDERF site. They have updated it. Images of flowers rather than the heavenly lights and clouds they used to have. Still no obvious mention of distressing NDEs, but now they highlight "Exceptional NDEs". So some poor sod who has had a distressing experience doesn't just have to compete with typical blissful experiences, now they get to see that some special people have "Exceptional" experiences.

This is not a neutral website. It has serious flaws as a research tool.

 

[Alex]

If you set up a website to collect data, and that website is set up to collect a very skewed set of experiences... then your research methodology is flawed. I have been in contact with Jodi Long in the past, since Jeff doesn't make himself available to members of his forum. I didn't find her very welcoming. Are you saying that the website is not their only means of collecting accounts? Because the website is definitely not set up in a neutral way.

I just went to the NDERF site. They have updated it. Images of flowers rather than the heavenly lights and clouds they used to have. Still no obvious mention of distressing NDEs, but now they highlight "Exceptional NDEs". So some poor sod who had had a distressing experience doesn't just have to compete with typical blissful experiences, now they get to see that some special people have "Exceptional" experiences.

This is not a neutral website. It has serious flaws as a research tool.

I'm just saying that you seem to be making a specific claim about someone's research but yr not offering any evidence... only yr opinion.

You seem to be saying that negative NDEs are underreported in the NDERF DB... ok, show me other published NDE research supporting this claim. for example, show me another researcher who found twice the incidence of neg NDE in their sample. I have not looked at the data in awhile, but I seem to remember Jeff Long's data being in line with other NDE researchers when it comes to neg NDEs.

 

[garry]

It seems to me that God has an agenda, this being to collect all His lost souls who wander around enamored by what this fallen world has to offer them. Lifetime after painful lifetime they fail salvation and must reincarnate. Success finally may become them as they realize during one final blessed life the futility of being here where all is so often for naught. Certainly one of God's methods to achieve this might be the distressing near death experience.

 

[K9!]

I'm just saying that you seem to be making a specific claim about someone's research but yr not offering any evidence... only yr opinion.

You seem to be saying that negative NDEs are underreported in the NDERF DB... ok, show me other published NDE research supporting this claim. for example, show me another researcher who found twice the incidence of neg NDE in their sample. I have not looked at the data in awhile, but I seem to remember Jeff Long's data being in line with other NDE researchers when it comes to neg NDEs.

The website is the evidence. It doesn't appear neutral. It emphasizes the "exceptional" (ie. especially good) experiences. I can't find any information on dNDEs on the site, but am overwhelmed by all the information on the accounts that prop up his POV. That isn't how to do good research. Placing accounts on a website asking for additional accounts is problematic enough as far as research goes. But there is no mention of distressing accounts, just highlights of "best case" NDEs, the blue ribbon accounts we all want to hear. A survey shouldn't provide the "best" answers right before you take the survey, should it?

If you go to the IANDS website, they do have information on dNDEs.

The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001 1, 2, 3, 4 involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare.

However, dNDEs may occur more frequently than they are reported. One possible reason for underreporting might be repression, in which traumatic experiences are relegated to the unconscious mind. However, a cardiologist who has been present at numerous resuscitations and has been open to hearing about dNDEs, disagreed that repression could be occurring: "These experiences are so profound...that repression is hardly an option" (Rommer, 2000, p. 25).

Other possible reasons that the dNDE may be underreported are that dNDErs avoid talking about the experience, perhaps because they:

• Hope the distressing experience will just go away,
• Want to avoid re-experiencing the distress that occurs when they talk about the experience,
• Feel ashamed for having had a distressing experience when so many other people have reported pleasurable experiences, and/or
• Are afraid that others will judge them as bad or crazy.

Although distressing NDEs appear to occur much less often than pleasurable NDEs, exactly how frequently the distressing types occur is not yet known. Hopefully, future research will produce a clearer answer to this question.

I'd also keep in mind that the cardiologist mentioned who disagreed about repression occurring might not be open to dNDEs despite being open to blissful NDEs. A case in point is Peter Fenwick. Steve gave this quote from the book Glimpsing Heaven by Judy Bachrach:

“OK—that, from my view, is not a near-death experience. That is a confusional experience,” the British neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick declares decisively in his London office after I tell him about the strange voyage of Nancy Evans Bush. “Now there are confusional experiences like that which are very scary,” he continues. “I came into this when we were doing some experiments with insulin. One thing you can do is a blood sugar clamp.” He elaborates: “You can clamp blood sugar at a low level to explore what happens to the brain—just low enough to produce abnormal cerebral rhythms.” One individual who volunteered for this sort of experiment, Dr. Fenwick continues, described on awakening, “a lonely, isolated, desolate planet, which he was walking across. He said it was simply awful. “And I’ve come across a number of people who’ve had negative NDEs which are very similar to that.” In fact, Dr. Fenwick adds, childbirth itself and its effect on the brain may be the culprits behind such traumatic voyages. On the other hand, he postulates, another condition often confused with a true death experience is “intensive care psychosis.” He has a classic example at his fingertips: “A patient reported she was in hell. She was burning inside and the devil was there with a pitchfork. And as she came to, she realized she was in the intensive care unit of a hospital.” The patient’s feeling of burning in hell? It was the result of the warming pan underneath her, the neuropsychiatrist continues. The painful pitchfork? The needles with which she was injected. “That in fact is a paranoid psychosis,” he sums up. “So I find negative NDEs—all the ones I’ve studied personally—fall into that category. Not in the category of real NDEs.” “Excuse me,” I interrupt. “But this is you, Dr. Fenwick, making that diagnosis, deciding what is a real, solid death experience and what is either temporary psychosis or simply the result of extremely low blood sugar. To say that a true death experience is invariably joyous, to argue that if it’s scary or traumatic, it’s not a real experience but just a by-product of a drop in blood sugar, is a pretty arbitrary way of separating the real from the imaginary death voyage.” He has the grace to laugh. “I’m making the diagnosis,” says Dr. Fenwick. “I’m using my science to make the diagnosis. But you’re absolutely right. I like what you’re saying!” In his Virginia office, psychiatrist Bruce Greyson shakes his head when I tell him about Dr. Fenwick’s line of demarcation, that bad death experiences don’t count as classic death voyages. Blissful, illuminating ones do, in his opinion. “How do you dismiss those without dismissing the positive death experience as well?” asks Dr. Greyson. “I don’t think we have any grounds for saying those aren’t as real as the positive death experiences.”

Even the best researchers have their blind spots.

 

[K9!]

It seems to me that God has an agenda, this being to collect all His lost souls who wander around enamored by what this fallen world has to offer them. Lifetime after painful lifetime they fail salvation and must reincarnate. Success finally may become them as they realize during one final blessed life the futility of being here where all is so often for naught. Certainly one of God's methods to achieve this might be the distressing near death experience.

We don't really know if there is such a thing as "god". Maybe we are all just part of one big consciousness? Or maybe we interact with a variety of interdimentional beings? There are a lot of possibilities to consider.

I occurs to me that you are an example of the type of person who is attracted to the NDERF website. Enough to become involved with the research and administrate the forum. You have a pretty distinct POV and your ideas about dNDEs are pretty severe (and not in keeping with research on the topic). It suggests that distressing experiences are punishment from god. I guess only good things happen to good people, right?

You're a good example of the problems with NDERF as far as being a neutral, science-based website goes.

 

[K9!]

I sometimes do Dutch to English translations for Jody Long and, not to be contradictory, I didn't find the experiencer account questionnaire to be biased as they were asked whether they had a pleasant or "distressing" experience. Often those subjected to distressing experiences needed a correction in the life they were leading so even this was to the good as they changed their ways to become better human beings afterwards. A well known example is that of Rev. Howard Storm.

The problem is, how does someone get to the questionnaire.. oh yeah, they sift through a website that doesn't give any information on distressing NDEs, but highlights all the "Exceptional" ones (you know, the ones you want to hear about). That's not how scientific studies are done.

I'd be interested in reading the peer-reviewed versions of Dr Long's study. Could you give me the journal references?

I'm curious how you explain the fact that saints have had hellish NDEs, while there are accounts such as one from a member of the mob given to Bruce Greyson that was very blissful. (Bad things do happen to good people. Just watch the news.)

 

[Alex]

The problem is, how does someone get to the questionnaire.. oh yeah, they sift through a website that doesn't give any information on distressing NDEs, but highlights all the "Exceptional" ones (you know, the ones you want to hear about). That's not how scientific studies are done.

I'd be interested in reading the peer-reviewed versions of Dr Long's study. Could you give me the journal references?

I'm sure they are in his book:
99. Dr. Jeffrey Long Takes On Critics of, Evidence of the ... - Skeptiko

BTW I'm not against yr claim re dNDEs... I just don't like the way yr building yr case, i.e. "it obvious from the website that the survey is flawed." so, I'm happy to explore this in depth... happy to do a whole skeptiko ep about it because I think it's a really interesting/important topic, but I'd encourage you to approach yr claim from a serious scientific standpoint and deliver the goods... I'll be happy to pick up the ball and run with it from there.

again, to summarize my position -- if you think dNDEs are underreported in NDErf DB, then you need to provide evidence. It's not enough to say the NDERF website appears too light and love for yr taste... you have to show that it's affecting the data.

at this point we have 30+ yrs of NDE research from a lot of different researchers. if yr point is supported by the #s you should be able to make yr case.

for example, has the NDERF data shifted toward the "light and love" hypothesis as the site/research has grown in popularity and the findings of Dr. Long have become more well known? this would seem to me to be a legit question. IDK the answer... but if it has that would support yr claim... if it's hasn't that would support my position.

 

[K9!]

I'm sure they are in his book:
99. Dr. Jeffrey Long Takes On Critics of, Evidence of the ... - Skeptiko

BTW I'm not against yr claim re dNDEs... I just don't like the way yr building yr case, i.e. "it obvious from the website that the survey is flawed." so, I'm happy to explore this in depth... happy to do a whole skeptiko ep about it because I think it's a really interesting/important topic, but I'd encourage you to approach yr claim from a serious scientific standpoint and deliver the goods... I'll be happy to pick up the ball and run with it from there.

again, to summarize my position -- if you think dNDEs are underreported in NDErf DB, then you need to provide evidence. It's not enough to say the NDERF website appears too light and love for yr taste... you have to show that it's affecting the data.

at this point we have 30+ yrs of NDE research from a lot of different researchers. if yr point is supported by the #s you should be able to make yr case.

for example, has the NDERF data shifted toward the "light and love" hypothesis as the site/research has grown in popularity and the findings of Dr. Long have become more well known? this would seem to me to be a legit question. IDK the answer... but if it has that would support yr claim... if it's hasn't that would support my position.

The quote from the IANDS website that I gave backs up my point. No one is really certain of the percentage of dNDEs (Nancy Evans Bush has suggested as many as 1 in 5 NDEs may be distressing). Just talk to Nancy Evans Bush about the difficulty she had in getting dNDErs to open up about their experiences.

I have Jeff's book (Evidence of the Afterlife), but I can't find any mention of his findings being published in a journal.

 

[MRandl]

Thank you for the interview Alex. I’m not sure what all it was that Dr. Kripal was wanting to share relative to the sexuality / spiritual connections. Enough was touched on however, where I may need to purchase his new book.

The debates and arguments around morality, good, bad or even evil within the spiritual experience, remains a mystery to me. One thing Im certain of … a persons political persuasion has no relevance to this. Ive known many loving and caring individuals that are either very conservative or very liberal with their politics. Of course, Ive also known some super self centered types … regardless of their politics. Alexs story about his conservative friend that had passed was touching. For me that story demonstrates the importance of having a solid value system which a person can use to help guide their decisions in life. (Values like love, compassion and caring).

The UFO discussion made me want to share some additional thoughts. The physical reality of UFOs is of course true. There are videos, landing traces, radar hits and apparently exotic metals recovered. On the other hand, many UFOs present within an energetic field and affecting witnesses in what can be thought of in spiritual ways (mindful or paranormal if you prefer). Like NDErs, many experiencers (contactees, abductees) have heightened psychic abilities as a result of their experience(s).

I believe UFOs to be a representation of a nexus … between the material and spiritual realms. Perhaps they teach us not to distinguish so much between the material and spiritual. They demonstrate that both are a part of the same reality. In other words, human beings are not only both material and spiritual but we can also experience these realities simultaneously … because they are one and the same.

 

[garry]

The problem is, how does someone get to the questionnaire.. oh yeah, they sift through a website that doesn't give any information on distressing NDEs, but highlights all the "Exceptional" ones (you know, the ones you want to hear about). That's not how scientific studies are done.

I'd be interested in reading the peer-reviewed versions of Dr Long's study. Could you give me the journal references?

I'm curious how you explain the fact that saints have had hellish NDEs, while there are accounts such as one from a member of the mob given to Bruce Greyson that was very blissful. (Bad things do happen to good people. Just watch the news.)

I'm sorry K9!, I never mean to be confrontational with anyone and I apologize if I came across that way. The questionnaire I was talking about follows and is part of each near death account submitted to the NDERF website. I would also like to apologize for seeming to be a party to anything or anyone in particular although I appreciate all human beings. I spent many years in an atheistic frame of mind. When I first started reading about people who were having these experiences I thought at first they were probably totally imagined. But more and more accounts and books about them were published as well as in some cases miraculous cures occurred. I started to become thrilled by the possibility- life after death! So Jesus was telling us the truth after all! I will be sixty nine years old in a few months so the end of this life for me will be in a decade or so give or take a few years. Thanks to the NDE stories I've read and other personal experiences I have no fear at all now of death. But I have made adjustments to the way I live to be more in compliance with the Gospel instructions.