Dr. Jeffrey Long’s, God and the Afterlife, Science & Spirituality Have Collided |327|

Just to be clear, and for those that haven't listened, Long (with support from Alex) is convinced that the nature of NDEs points towards a hierarchical god or system of deities. Who will receive the most succour from this? It is no wonder he has been so well received by church groups. From a business point of view this is, at the very least, very fortuitous.

The type of skeptiko proponent who suspect some sort of non religious MAL represents a relatively small group (however their insistence on attacking atheism, and capitalising the g-word, perhaps belies that they've still got a bob each way on Pascal's wager ;)) but they can't be surprised that Long's work will be seen as supporting the notion of a traditional 'God'. That traditional (and fairly strong) arguments against such a deity will be trotted out to counter his work is only to be expected.
 
I understood Small Dog's reference to studying reported manifestations of a specific type of psychosis to be an analogy. However, it is not impossible for some NDErs to also have psychoses. Has there been any studies into prior mental health states of NDErs and types of experiences reported?
 
The type of skeptiko proponent who suspect some sort of non religious MAL represents a relatively small group (however their insistence on attacking atheism, and capitalising the g-word, perhaps belies that they've still got a bob each way on Pascal's wager ;)) but they can't be surprised that Long's work will be seen as supporting the notion of a traditional 'God'. That traditional (and fairly strong) arguments against such a deity will be trotted out to counter his work can only be expected.

I get the impression that most proponents here are in the non-religious group supporting the idea of mind at large or idealism. I certainly am. I capitalise God for two reasons - one because it I thought it grammatically correct and two to distinguish between what might be thought of as lesser deities or pagan deities and the grander God concept which encompasses all things. As for atheism, it is not the rejection of religion that I object to but the total rejection of the spiritual (and we have discussed before why we use that word even though we don't like the religious connotations).
 
However, it is not impossible for some NDErs to also have psychoses. Has there been any studies into prior mental health states of NDErs and types of experiences reported?

Well, seeing as the people who would do such a study would likely be the same who would consider any paranormal experience as a sign of delusion, should we trust such a study? Also, some of the NDErs are doctors and some of the doctors who attended the NDErs are not only convinced of their sanity but also of the veracity of the reports.

Aren't you just playing the delusion card yet again?
 
What if science itself is proof of God? Same old questions: why is there anything at all? Why are there laws of physics and mathematics? Why does the universe seem to be fine tuned? Seems to me there are two options: pure chance and the manifestations of a creative mind (God). The former throws out parsimony in order to throw out God. The latter seems to answer all of the questions but one: how did mind originate? Hell, I don't know but maybe it is the one absolute: no beginning or end, it just is.
I think a number of materialists are starting to embrace the simulation hypothesis as a third option. I find that ironic, though, because the simulation hypothesis is literally Intelligent Design. It's almost like they took a look at the universe and couldn't help thinking that it looks like it was intelligently designed, but that threatens their ideology, so they came up with something that is intelligent design in all but name, but that they can spin as being consistent with materialism.


Reading Small Dog's posts alongside most other sceptical theories, I can't help but conclude that there is an assumption that any kind of spiritual experience must be false because we already know that the spiritual is a product of human imagination.
I'm reminded of that paper by Neil Grossman where he talked to a materialist who said that even if he had an NDE himself, he would absolutely believe it was a hallucination, because the existence of an afterlife is false, and "There can be no evidence for something that is false." Or Sean Carroll's response to Alex's suggestion that he read more NDE studies: "I could go read all those studies and then come back and tell you how they're wrong, but I don't have time to waste on that."
 
Does Mary Neal come across as delusional? I obviously have no access to her health records, but she strikes me as core middle America medic material.
I believe she literally prayed to God before she even left her body and said something like "God's will be done" (basically, she was saying it was up to God whether she lived or died). People who are committed to the delusion theory will say "Well, she believed in God on some level, so her brain conjured up a 'spiritual experience' based on her delusional expectations. Case closed."
 
Does Mary Neal come across as delusional? I obviously have no access to her health records, but she strikes me as core middle America medic material.
I don't think we should push this delusional question in a confrontational sort of way, I'd rather we tried - hopefully with Small Dog's help - to think about the relationship between NDE's and actual delusion (see my post above). I mean one question I have is whether there is any evidence that people do become 'delusional' if they suffer from very low BP or low oxygen levels.

Equally, I think our understanding of delusion is very weak - I mean it seems to be little more than saying that a damaged brain might produce delusions!

David
 
Well, seeing as the people who would do such a study would likely be the same who would consider any paranormal experience as a sign of delusion, should we trust such a study? Also, some of the NDErs are doctors and some of the doctors who attended the NDErs are not only convinced of their sanity but also of the veracity of the reports.

Aren't you just playing the delusion card yet again?
I'm not implying that mental illness is a blanket explanation for all NDE reports.
 
Well, seeing as the people who would do such a study would likely be the same who would consider any paranormal experience as a sign of delusion, should we trust such a study? Also, some of the NDErs are doctors and some of the doctors who attended the NDErs are not only convinced of their sanity but also of the veracity of the reports.

Aren't you just playing the delusion card yet again?

I do think that if neuroscience and psychology can crawl out of the credibility hole it'd be interesting to do studies on people who think a computer program is conscious and they'll live forever after uploading their minds.

Is it a form of OCD that makes people like Sean Carroll think a mechanistic interpretation of physics must be true, to the point of accepting an infinite number of unreachable universes are multiplying with every wave function collapse?
 
I don't think we should push this delusional question in a confrontational sort of way, I'd rather we tried - hopefully with Small Dog's help - to think about the relationship between NDE's and actual delusion (see my post above). I mean one question I have is whether there is any evidence that people do become 'delusional' if they suffer from very low BP or low oxygen levels.

Equally, I think our understanding of delusion is very weak - I mean it seems to be little more than saying that a damaged brain might produce delusions!

David
The relationship between NDEs and delusion is interesting, but perhaps not in the way suggested. Many, though by no means all NDE survivors have a problematic relationship with conventional reality subsequent to their NDE, but I don't know a branch of neurosis or psycho-visual impulse that resembles an NDE. Perhaps the closest is religious visions, particularly those that claim to have been transported to heaven or hell, or receive messages from saintly figures (Joan of Arc, Bernadette of Lourdes, Medjugorje visionaries, etc).

Is J K Rowling a visionary, Donald Trump, the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe who said voices made him kill women? Is the word deluded not wholly pejorative?
 
As for atheism, it is not the rejection of religion that I object to but the total rejection of the spiritual (and we have discussed before why we use that word even though we don't like the religious connotations).

This is wholly how I feel. I don't subscribe to any religious sect, but I do believe in a spiritual connection to something bigger, it waxes and wanes but it's still there. This forum is a breath of fresh air really, because you can do that and not have some label affixed to you. If an atheist wants to see me as some new age woomeister that says more about their disposition than mine. I look at people at the essence of their character, not the Ideological tag they walk around with.
 
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What if science itself is proof of God? Same old questions: why is there anything at all? Why are there laws of physics and mathematics? Why does the universe seem to be fine tuned? Seems to me there are two options: pure chance and the manifestations of a creative mind (God). The former throws out parsimony in order to throw out God. The latter seems to answer all of the questions but one: how did mind originate? Hell, I don't know but maybe it is the one absolute: no beginning or end, it just is.
I wish I'd said that :-) And if maths is Platonic, materialism is stuffed and mind rears itself. But since NDEs etc. (etc. = other phenomena) imply mind rearing itself (apart from the brain) then maths is Platonic (or has a better chance of being so) and that opens up everything. So maths is discovered not invented. Seems to me to be a vicious circle materialism can't break into.
Another way of saying mathematics isn't Platonic would be the proof of materialism, which to me is refutable on data.
 
Another way of saying mathematics isn't Platonic would be the proof of materialism, which to me is refutable on data.

Could you elaborate? I mean I also have some sympathy for Mathematical Platonism but just not sure what you mean by data?
 
Could you elaborate? I mean I also have some sympathy for Mathematical Platonism but just not sure what you mean by data?
Oh, I meant materialism is refutable on data from anomalous experiences (e.g. NDEs etc.). So the mind is then free and comes into contact with the Platonic reality of mathematics. Maybe one of many types of contacts. Sorry if it sounds like "campfire philosophy" but once you go down the rabbit hole ...
 
Oh, I meant materialism is refutable on data from anomalous experiences (e.g. NDEs etc.). So the mind is then free and comes into contact with the Platonic reality of mathematics. Maybe one of many types of contacts. Sorry if it sounds like "campfire philosophy" but once you go down the rabbit hole ...

Well there was some discussion about what seemed like potentially anomalous information transfer
, and I believe one NDE might've fit the bill.

edit: Here it is.
 
Thanks, a lot there. Maybe proves the point we're making. There must be many examples like this esp. in that some people get incredible info. they couldn't have gotten just through education.

It would seem to potentially connect - my basic understanding of Plato & Neoplatonism was that the apprehension of the Universals (logical & mathematical truths, which are eternally true) was why the soul was considered undying.

For Plato - again, AFAIK - learning these Universals was done through anamnesis, a great word that means "loss of forgetfulness" which I always thought was cool.
 
I don't think we should push this delusional question in a confrontational sort of way, I'd rather we tried - hopefully with Small Dog's help - to think about the relationship between NDE's and actual delusion (see my post above). I mean one question I have is whether there is any evidence that people do become 'delusional' if they suffer from very low BP or low oxygen levels.

Equally, I think our understanding of delusion is very weak - I mean it seems to be little more than saying that a damaged brain might produce delusions!

David
Psychiatrist Bruce Greyson has addressed the issue of NDEs vs mental illness.


 
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