Dr Lloyd Rudy veridical NDE OBE... Smithy's article now available.

#1
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#3
It's too bad Rudy didn't write this up as a case report, even just from the perspective of having someone recover after prolonged arrest - especially since they would have had exquisite documentation of that recovery available, between the EKG, the BP and respiratory monitors, and the TEE.

Other than the unusualness of the recovery, though, this seems like every other "veridical" case out there - no documentation of what the patient said prior to the abundant feedback, so no way to determine the actual source of the "veridical" information. It would be great if there was somebody like a Penny Sartori at each hospital, interviewing and recording each patient post medical crisis. Or if health care staff were taught to ask about and record (as an audio record) experiences post-arrest as a matter of course. This seems like something you could really get nurses on board with - any hint of this kind of plan amongst NDE researchers (some of which are nurses)?

Linda
 
#5
It's too bad Rudy didn't write this up as a case report, even just from the perspective of having someone recover after prolonged arrest - especially since they would have had exquisite documentation of that recovery available, between the EKG, the BP and respiratory monitors, and the TEE.

Other than the unusualness of the recovery, though, this seems like every other "veridical" case out there - no documentation of what the patient said prior to the abundant feedback, so no way to determine the actual source of the "veridical" information. It would be great if there was somebody like a Penny Sartori at each hospital, interviewing and recording each patient post medical crisis. Or if health care staff were taught to ask about and record (as an audio record) experiences post-arrest as a matter of course. This seems like something you could really get nurses on board with - any hint of this kind of plan amongst NDE researchers (some of which are nurses)?

Linda
I know your stance in this matter. Yes, it would be ideal if such arrangements could be made.
However, some time ago I lectured on NDE's (including veridical ones) for a large group of hospital nurses, and then asked them if they would be interested in such an arrangement. The reception of this proposition was luke warm to put it mildly.
 
#6
I noticed that the article Smithy mentioned some time ago has been put online by his co-author. It concerns a video of Lloyd Rudy describing a patients near death, and veridical out of body experience, and provides some additional corroboration from Lloyd Rudy's assistant.

"A Near-Death Experience with Veridical Perception described by a Famous Hearty Surgeon and Confirmed by his Assistant Surgeon"
There is a much better link now:

http://home.hccnet.nl/rudolf.h.smit/JNDS case Lloyd Rudy.pdf

Smithy
 
#9
FLS said :

"Other than the unusualness of the recovery, though, this seems like every other "veridical" case out there - no documentation of what the patient said prior to the abundant feedback, so no way to determine the actual source of the "veridical" information."

The sheer crass cynicism and lack of faith in the integrity and judgement of the two highly experienced doctors in this statement beggars belief. I know why she does it and that's one of the reasons why I'm not participating on the forum, not that that's any great loss to discussion here of course.

I'd kick her off if it was my forum but that may be an over reaction, nevertheless that's how much she winds me up.
 
#10
FLS said :

"Other than the unusualness of the recovery, though, this seems like every other "veridical" case out there - no documentation of what the patient said prior to the abundant feedback, so no way to determine the actual source of the "veridical" information."

The sheer crass cynicism and lack of faith in the integrity and judgement of the two highly experienced doctors in this statement beggars belief. I know why she does it and that's one of the reasons why I'm not participating on the forum, not that that's any great loss to discussion here of course.

I'd kick her off if it was my forum but that may be an over reaction, nevertheless that's how much she winds me up.
I am sure that she would find that the Randi forums are a better place for her. That is, after all, one of the forums that places deep rooted beliefs over actual credentials. The other, quite ironically, being CSICOP. Both have the dubious distinction of being led by people that have no scientific credentials whatsoever, but they are quite open to manipulating the layman by quoting some sort of "scientific authority". Which, coincidentaly, seems like Linda's cup of tea.
 
#12
I am sure that she would find that the Randi forums are a better place for her. That is, after all, one of the forums that places deep rooted beliefs over actual credentials. The other, quite ironically, being CSICOP. Both have the dubious distinction of being led by people that have no scientific credentials whatsoever, but they are quite open to manipulating the layman by quoting some sort of "scientific authority". Which, coincidentaly, seems like Linda's cup of tea.
Agree totally. And to achieve the so called "contamination" of the scene (the patient's room) by the doctors and nurses would require something akin to a Laurel and Hardy/Three Stooges sketch. I am totally fed up with idiotic "scepticism just for the sake of it"
 
#13
I know your stance in this matter. Yes, it would be ideal if such arrangements could be made.
However, some time ago I lectured on NDE's (including veridical ones) for a large group of hospital nurses, and then asked them if they would be interested in such an arrangement. The reception of this proposition was luke warm to put it mildly.
I'm sorry to hear that. That's disappointing and frustrating.

Linda
 
#15
I'm sorry to hear that. That's disappointing and frustrating.

Linda

It is... One of those nurses confided to me that her superiors would be totally against such an arrangement, due to their belief that everything dealing with NDE is just a load of superstitious nonsense.
 
#17
Agree totally. And to achieve the so called "contamination" of the scene (the patient's room) by the doctors and nurses would require something akin to a Laurel and Hardy/Three Stooges sketch. I am totally fed up with idiotic "scepticism just for the sake of it"
She always seems to assume incredible incompetence on behalf of the proponent side and a general infallibility from her own camp, yet played the "gullible" card when she insulted me after publishing the evidence exposing Bill's "personal seance" as an obvious fraud.The double standard is remarkable.
 
#18
She always seems to assume incredible incompetence on behalf of the proponent side and a general infallibility from her own camp, yet played the "gullible" card when she insulted me after publishing the evidence exposing Bill's "personal seance" as an obvious fraud.The double standard is remarkable.
Flowers,

You didn't expose my experience with the medium as a fraud. U only were able to point out that my experience happened to correlate almost identically to someone else's experience with the same medium who posted his or her account online. Ur interpretation of that correlation was that I must have been lying instead of an equally valid alternative interpretation that would give evidence that the medium is lying or using some sort of "template".. Typical cold reading and fishing for information. I shared the experience because he was one of the few mediums I believed in and was emotionally messed up when I had the reading and it was clearly bogus. U have really only proven ur close minded nature and inability to see things outside of ur own pre conceived notions and assumptions. U r no different than close minded skeptics who already have their mind made up and filter everything thru those assumptions. U just happen to do the same thing from the "proponent" side. Use this as an opportunity for some self reflection. It's amazing this happened quite a while back and ur still bringing my name up.
 
#19
Flowers,

You didn't expose my experience with the medium as a fraud. U only were able to point out that my experience happened to correlate almost identically to someone else's experience with the same medium who posted his or her account online. Ur interpretation of that correlation was that I must have been lying instead of an equally valid alternative interpretation that would give evidence that the medium is lying or using some sort of "template".. Typical cold reading and fishing for information. I shared the experience because he was one of the few mediums I believed in and was emotionally messed up when I had the reading and it was clearly bogus. U have really only proven ur close minded nature and inability to see things outside of ur own pre conceived notions and assumptions. U r no different than close minded skeptics who already have their mind made up and filter everything thru those assumptions. U just happen to do the same thing from the "proponent" side. Use this as an opportunity for some self reflection. It's amazing this happened quite a while back and ur still bringing my name up.
You are hilarious Bill, seriously. In that thread you claimed that -despite the fact that all of your previous posts came from an obvious critical and skepkical position- this supposed experience left you "depressed" and "shook your beliefs". My mind was not "made up", I am just observant and quick to notice the ridiculous contrast... Luckily, so were several other users. And remember that it's not my fault if you are full of it.
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#20
FLS said :

"Other than the unusualness of the recovery, though, this seems like every other "veridical" case out there - no documentation of what the patient said prior to the abundant feedback, so no way to determine the actual source of the "veridical" information."

The sheer crass cynicism and lack of faith in the integrity and judgement of the two highly experienced doctors in this statement beggars belief. I know why she does it and that's one of the reasons why I'm not participating on the forum, not that that's any great loss to discussion here of course.
Wow, this is a bit of an overreaction, no?

The only comment that Rudy makes about the possibility of an immaterial explanation is "Was that his soul up there?" No one is questioning his integrity and judgement, because all he does is state objective facts as he recalled them some 10--15 years after the event. What neither he nor Amado-Cattaneo knew was what happened after the patient left the operating room prior to Rudy first talking to him. We have absolutely no idea what anyone (e.g., nurses) said to him.

And here is a new wrinkle in the paper. Amado-Cattaneo said "[Post-Its] taped to a monitor ... close enough for anybody to see what it is there, like the patient for example if he was looking at it." How do we know he didn't? What if the tape had been removed from his eyes and he opened his eyes after revival? We have no way of knowing if this happened and I don't think the doctors did, either.

~~ Paul
 
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