Dr. Tom Zinser, Clinical Psychologist on Difference Between Darkness and Evil |451|

#61
I wonder, have you ever been to a theatre, cinema, music concert or sports event? Or maybe such gatherings are anathema to you? Those are certainly examples of oneness which many people enjoy. The attendees also survive intact.
I have been to all such gatherings several times, but i never experienced any kind of merging or oneness etc.
 
#62
Whether it happens sooner or later, the end result is still the same: annihilation.

If the heavenly realms have less limitations than we experience here, then logically there shouldn't be any limitations on individuality.
I don't think that necessarily follows. I think even though we may forget our divinity, we are still pulled in that direction because it's our nature. We get to experience ourselves as individual beings but we always will feel the restlessness until we merge with Oneness.
 
#63
I have been to all such gatherings several times, but i never experienced any kind of merging or oneness etc.
I have an example from my own life. I'm a shy person and struggle with social anxiety but I love dance clubs. Crowds usually exhaust me but for some reason I feel Oneness when everyone is dancing and enjoying themselves. We're all sharing the joy of connection and movement.
 
#64
It would be a hard thing to determine if someone was suffering from a schizophrenic issue or an entity from outside. Maybe there’s a crossover :(
I agree that psychiatry doesn’t help much. I think their function is more to do with diagnosis & sorting the different chemicals (drugs) to subdue feelings. There’s still some helpful practices like cognitive therapy but that’s different for a personal crisis with underlying spiritual issues.
Schizophrenia involves very specific symptoms that are not usually associated with being influenced by an outside entity.

schizophrenia:



If schizophrenia were due to expanded consciousness, would you expect the hallucinations to be veridical? And does expanded consciousness explain the other symptoms of schizophrenia such as:

https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/schizophrenia-symptoms#1

  • Delusions. These are beliefs that seem strange to most people and are easy to prove wrong. The person affected might think someone is trying to control their brain through TVs or that the FBI is out to get them. They might believe they're someone else, like a famous actor or the president, or that they have superpowers. Types of delusions include:
    • Persecutory delusions. The feeling someone is after you or that you’re being stalked, hunted, framed, or tricked.
    • Referential delusions. When a person believes that public forms of communication, like song lyrics or a gesture from a TV host, are a special message just for them.
    • Somatic delusions. These center on the body. The person thinks they have a terrible illness or bizarre health problem like worms under the skin or damage from cosmic rays.
    • Erotomanic delusions. A person might be convinced a celebrity is in love with them or that their partner is cheating. Or they might think people they’re not attracted to are pursuing them.
    • Religious delusions. Someone might think they have a special relationship with a deity or that they’re possessed by a demon.
    • Grandiose delusions. They consider themselves a major figure on the world stage, like an entertainer or a politician.
  • Confused thoughts and disorganized speech. People with schizophrenia can have a hard time organizing their thoughts. They might not be able to follow along when you talk to them. Instead, it might seem like they're zoning out or distracted. When they talk, their words can come out jumbled and not make sense.
  • Trouble concentrating. For example, someone might lose track of what's going on in a TV show as they're watching.
  • Movement disorders . Some people with schizophrenia can seem jumpy. Sometimes they'll make the same movements over and over again. But sometimes they might be perfectly still for hours at a stretch, which experts call being catatonic. Contrary to popular belief, people with the disease usually aren't violent.
 
#66
Schizophrenia involves very specific symptoms that are not usually associated with being influenced by an outside entity.
I think that might be missing the point. IMHO there is definitely something physically wrong with Schizophrenics (for one thing, it runs in families) but I suspect that just means the person's 'tuner' doesn't work very well. That analogy with a radio seems so useful.

David
 
#67
I think that might be missing the point. IMHO there is definitely something physically wrong with Schizophrenics (for one thing, it runs in families) but I suspect that just means the person's 'tuner' doesn't work very well. That analogy with a radio seems so useful.

David
How much overlap is there among the group of people with the symptoms of schizophrenia and the group of people who produce veridical information from visions or disembodied voices?

My point is you can't blame spirit influence for causing schizophrenia because there are other symptoms besides visions and voices.

And you can't explain the visions and voices of schizophrenics as spirit influence unless there is some reliable evidence that as a group they can produce veridical information at a higher rate than the general population.

When I used to go Spiritualist churches I met many people who were working mediums and who demonstrated ability in mediumship classes. I never came across one person who had symptoms of schizophrenia. I met people with depression, anxiety, one person with epilepsy (who would sometimes freak people out - by seeming to be possessed - rolling on the floor and grunting when they would have a seizure during a church service), a large number of the men were gay, it is a common belief that abusive childhood experiences increase the likelihood of developing psychic talents. But in the psychic community there is no evidence or suspicion or rumor that symptoms of schizophrenia correlated with receptivity to spirit influence. When people are psychic and can produce vertical information it does not go unnoticed in the general population.

One problem that does occur is that people who have psychic abilities are sometimes misdiagnosed as being mentally ill simply because they have veridical visions and hear veridical voices and sometime based on that alone they are misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. But a correct diagnosis for schizophrenia requires more than just "hallucinations".
 
Last edited:
#68
How much overlap is there among the group of people with the symptoms of schizophrenia and the group of people who produce veridical information from visions or disembodied voices?

My point is you can't blame spirit influence for causing schizophrenia because there are other symptoms besides visions and voices.

And you can't explain the visions and voices of schizophrenics as spirit influence unless there is some reliable evidence that as a group they can produce veridical information at a higher rate than the general population.

When I used to go Spiritualist churches I met many people who were working mediums and who demonstrated ability in mediumship classes. I never came across one person who had symptoms of schizophrenia. I met people with depression, anxiety, one person with epilepsy (who would sometimes freak people out - by seeming to be possessed - rolling on the floor and grunting when they would have a seizure during a church service), a large number of the men were gay, it is a common belief that abusive childhood experiences increase the likelihood of developing psychic talents. But in the psychic community there is no evidence or suspicion or rumor that symptoms of schizophrenia correlated with receptivity to spirit influence. When people are psychic and can produce vertical information it does not go unnoticed in the general population.

One problem that does occur is that people who have psychic abilities are sometimes misdiagnosed as being mentally ill simply because they have veridical visions and hear veridical voices and sometime based on that alone they are misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. But a correct diagnosis for schizophrenia requires more than just "hallucinations".
I read a story about a guy from the States who was schizophrenic and of course struggled in life to function with his "disorder". Somehow he ended up in a tribe in Africa I think, and was welcomed with open arms and the shaman of the tribe believed this man was close to the spirit world and his "mental illness" displayed that. After a time there, he came back and was able to function better and ended up going to Harvard and living a pretty normal life. Maybe it was the love and respect he received from these people that had a healing effect but I also think he maybe accepted that he wasn't abnormal and was actual valued because he had less barriers to the spirit world than most of us "normal" people.
 
#69
I read a story about a guy from the States who was schizophrenic and of course struggled in life to function with his "disorder". Somehow he ended up in a tribe in Africa I think, and was welcomed with open arms and the shaman of the tribe believed this man was close to the spirit world and his "mental illness" displayed that. After a time there, he came back and was able to function better and ended up going to Harvard and living a pretty normal life. Maybe it was the love and respect he received from these people that had a healing effect but I also think he maybe accepted that he wasn't abnormal and was actual valued because he had less barriers to the spirit world than most of us "normal" people.
https://www.jaysongaddis.com/the-shamanic-view-of-mental-illness/
Here is that story.
 
#70
I don't think that necessarily follows. I think even though we may forget our divinity, we are still pulled in that direction because it's our nature. We get to experience ourselves as individual beings but we always will feel the restlessness until we merge with Oneness.
That doesn't make any sense. Individuals get more sophisticated and unique as a result of (spiritual) evolution. One can observe individual differences in behavior even in ant colonies. In this world we see the development of individuality, not its degeneration. Evidence from psychical research strongly suggests that individuality is retained after death. The idea that eventually everybody merges with oneness is illogical, and it is also negated by the evidence from psychical research.

“….you will never lose your identity,” said the spirit claiming to be Emanuel Swedenborg, the eighteenth-century scientist and mystic who communicated through the mediumship of Dr. George Dexter (as recorded by John Edmonds, of the New York State Supreme court during the early 1850s).
Silver Birch :
All spiritual progress is toward increasing individuality. You do not become less of an individual, you become more of an individual.
Does “Oneness” in the Afterlife Mean Loss of Individuality? by Michael Tymn

I have an example from my own life. I'm a shy person and struggle with social anxiety but I love dance clubs. Crowds usually exhaust me but for some reason I feel Oneness when everyone is dancing and enjoying themselves. We're all sharing the joy of connection and movement.
That kind of "oneness" can't be compared to oneness which involves loss of individuality. In your example everybody retains their individuality, will and personality. Distinct individuals are having a good time. They don't merge with each other. You don't become the blond woman on your left or the fat bald man on your right or the table or the chair or the dance floor etc.
 
#71
When I used to go Spiritualist churches I met many people who were working mediums and who demonstrated ability in mediumship classes. I never came across one person who had symptoms of schizophrenia. I met people with depression, anxiety, one person with epilepsy (who would sometimes freak people out - by seeming to be possessed - rolling on the floor and grunting when they would have a seizure during a church service), a large number of the men were gay, it is a common belief that abusive childhood experiences increase the likelihood of developing psychic talents. But in the psychic community there is no evidence or suspicion or rumor that symptoms of schizophrenia correlated with receptivity to spirit influence. When people are psychic and can produce vertical information it does not go unnoticed in the general population.
I suppose my point is that when mental diseases are interpreted using an entirely false concept - materialism - all sorts of things may happen. Several diseases may be lumped as one, or one disease may be fragmented into many diseases, or people who are in some way unusual may end up being diagnosed with a disease.

What I do know is that at least one contributor here explained that he had psychic experiences, and was, for a while diagnosed and treated for schizophrenia. At some point, whether you call someone sick or not becomes entirely subjective.

You seem to be saying that people who hear voices in their heads are not experiencing an intrusion from the spirit world - but why? Could not a medium, for example, be said to be hearing voices from other personalities?

You seem to be very vehement about this point, as if you want to protect the spiritual churches from the slur of being called schizophrenic. Well I'm not trying to slur anyone, just to point out the self evident link.

Some time back I came across a forum for people who hear voices, but who feel they don't need this fixing, and are able to control the situation. I don't know if you would class this as schizophrenia or not, but they don't consider they have a disease. Maybe schizophrenia should be redefined as hearing voices that cause problems for the victim, or which endanger other people?

At the other end of the scale, I have had only minimal evidence of psychic phenomena. I simply assume that my brain is rather too effective at shutting out other signals.

David
 
Last edited:
#72
I suppose my point is that when mental diseases are interpreted using an entirely false concept - materialism - all sorts of things may happen. Several diseases may be lumped as one, or one disease may be fragmented into many diseases, or people who are in some way unusual may end up being diagnosed with a disease.

What I do know is that at least one contributor here explained that he had psychic experiences, and was, for a while diagnosed and treated for schizophrenia. At some point, whether you call someone sick or not becomes entirely subjective.

You seem to be saying that people who hear voices in their heads are not experiencing an intrusion from the spirit world - but why? Could not a medium, for example, be said to be hearing voices from other personalities?

You seem to be very vehement about this point, as if you want to protect the spiritual churches from the slur of being called schizophrenic. Well I'm not trying to slur anyone, just to point out the self evident link.

Some time back I came across a forum for people who hear voices, but who feel they don't need this fixing, and are able to control the situation. I don't know if you would class this as schizophrenia or not, but they don't consider they have a disease. Maybe schizophrenia should be redefined as hearing voices that cause problems for the victim, or which endanger other people?
The symptoms of schizophrenia are:
https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/schizophrenia-symptoms#1

  • Delusions. These are beliefs that seem strange to most people and are easy to prove wrong. The person affected might think someone is trying to control their brain through TVs or that the FBI is out to get them. They might believe they're someone else, like a famous actor or the president, or that they have superpowers. Types of delusions include:
    • Persecutory delusions. The feeling someone is after you or that you’re being stalked, hunted, framed, or tricked.
    • Referential delusions. When a person believes that public forms of communication, like song lyrics or a gesture from a TV host, are a special message just for them.
    • Somatic delusions. These center on the body. The person thinks they have a terrible illness or bizarre health problem like worms under the skin or damage from cosmic rays.
    • Erotomanic delusions. A person might be convinced a celebrity is in love with them or that their partner is cheating. Or they might think people they’re not attracted to are pursuing them.
    • Religious delusions. Someone might think they have a special relationship with a deity or that they’re possessed by a demon.
    • Grandiose delusions. They consider themselves a major figure on the world stage, like an entertainer or a politician.
  • Confused thoughts and disorganized speech. People with schizophrenia can have a hard time organizing their thoughts. They might not be able to follow along when you talk to them. Instead, it might seem like they're zoning out or distracted. When they talk, their words can come out jumbled and not make sense.
  • Trouble concentrating. For example, someone might lose track of what's going on in a TV show as they're watching.
  • Movement disorders . Some people with schizophrenia can seem jumpy. Sometimes they'll make the same movements over and over again. But sometimes they might be perfectly still for hours at a stretch, which experts call being catatonic. Contrary to popular belief, people with the disease usually aren't violent.
At the other end of the scale, I have had only minimal evidence of psychic phenomena. I simply assume that my brain is rather too effective at shutting out other signals.

David
 
#73
Last edited:
#75
And another one:

I wanted to respond to the statements:
He talks of "dark souls" that are warring against the light, violating other souls, to use them and harness them.
But he also equates a "soul" with light. So "dark soul" is a dark light... juxtaposed opposites... a contradiction?

Thank you for the question. It is a very important one. In my book, the term 'dark soul' is described in more depth. First, though, about terms—I know that the term 'dark soul' is not the best because of the very contradiction you point out. The terms in Soul-Centered Healing developed out of a clinical framework as I encountered one new phenomenon after another. The terms were functional at the time that they were first being encountered so that Gerod and I could talk the same language. There are certainly terms I would revise now, but that’s another issue. Technically, 'dark souls' refers to souls who dwell in darkness where there is no Light. As souls of Light, they still seek the Light energy. This is one of the major reasons 'dark souls' seek to intrude on humans—Light energy. Gerod described we humans as "stepped-down Light energy”and safer than direct contact with the Light.

I am including some excerpts from my book, 'Soul-Centered Healing: A Psychologist’s Extraordinary Journey into the Realms of Sub-Personalities, Spirits, and Past Lives.' They are not meant to define the term. They are segments that I hope give a better sense of what the term 'dark souls' means. Some of these excerpts are Gerod speaking, and some are my own words. Since I’m not very sure about formatting on a forum, I will preface Gerod’s words with a “G’ and mine with a “T.”
__________________________________

G. The evil spirits that you encountered were at one time earthbound souls, but they also became tinged with the evil that slowly dragged them down into the darkness. It is their choice. When you read of the cases of very severe examples of possession, those evil spirits, they are souls. They were at one time a human person that lived on earth or a being from some other reality but they are a soul that has crossed that line because it is what for some reason appeals to their sense of being.
T. Low-lying spirits were difficult enough to understand and know how to talk to, but evil spirits and forces were far outside my range. I did not know how to think about them. I had no idea who or what they were, or what they were up to. With clients where these kinds of spirits were present, I did not know if I was dealing with isolated incidents of spirit harassment or whether there was a larger design
The contact with evil spirits threatened the cozy arrangement in my mind between the earthbound realm, and what Gerod called the “spirit realm of Light.” Evil spirits did not fit either of these categories. I didn’t know where they fit. The contact with evil spirits put me in touch with another realm well beyond my comfort zone. I began to realize that in my work with earthbound spirits, I had been operating in only a small corner of the universe.
By engaging these spirits, I entered further into the unknown. I started out trying to usher earthbound spirits to the Light, and before I knew it, I was dealing with dimensions and beings, of which I knew nothing. In the coming months, with other clients, I would encounter more spirits like these. Every time I worked with one, it seemed to lead deeper into that unknown. I could no longer be certain with any given client who or what I might encounter. (113-114 soul-centered healing )
_________________________________
T. Talking to Gerod about darkness and evil was another of those cases, as with the terms ego and ego-states, where Gerod and I used the same terms, but we were not meaning the same thing. We both, for example, used the terms dark or evil to describe those harassing and intruding spirits that I found with certain clients. Gerod, however, also used the term darkness as something in itself, a reality or dimension separate from the existence of spirits. Evil spirits dwell in darkness, but spirits are not the darkness itself. Darkness was not a soul, but a primal energy and force operating, like the Light, at every level of reality. Souls could exist in that energy and consciousness, but it was a very different existence from souls in the Light.

Personally and clinically, the idea of darkness as an existing reality or force was outside my framework of thinking. When it came to evil, my focus from a clinical point of view was on evil spirits, not dark- ness. It was only gradually that I came to hear the distinction Gerod was making between darkness and evil and began to address it in my work with clients and in talks with Gerod. There were three clinical phenomena in particular that I was encountering with clients where darkness was a central issue.
Intruding and harassing spirits were the first phenomena that opened up this whole question of darkness and evil. These spirits were the kind I talked about in Chapter Six. Gerod was the first one to name them. He called them “evil spirits.” He pointed to the distinction be- tween earthbound spirits and evil spirits early in our dialogues when the whole issue of spirit involvement was still new to me. According to Gerod, these were not just earthbound spirits—lost, confused, or mischievous—trying to hang on to the physical reality. They were spirits who were intentionally intruding upon or threatening the client with whom I was working, and they seemed to know very clearly what they were doing. The more I learned about them, the more I came to understand that although they existed in darkness, the darkness itself was something different.

Unlike with the earthbound, these spirits wanted nothing to do with the Light or receiving help from spirit guides, no matter how safe it could be. When they were identified, they refused to cooperate and, on the contrary, would often deliberately try to block or interfere with the healing process, especially through blocking the communication signals. They also consistently refused to voluntarily leave a client or cease their harassment. Their attitude was, “make me.” They weren’t leaving unless forced to, and most believed that neither my client nor I had the power to do that.

In that first year and half of working with Gerod, I had a number of cases that involved these kinds of hostile and aggressive spirits. As I became more proficient at recognizing and working with earthbound spirits, I also became more adept at distinguishing them from these dark spirits. Dealing with them, however, as opposed to earthbound spirits, required a shift in tactics. Unlike with earthbound spirits, I was not communicating with entities who would welcome our assistance and were looking for a way out of their predicament. Chapter: Darkness and Evil (pg. 200-201)
_________________________
G. These evil spirits that you met with were souls, but at one time they also became tinged with the evil that slowly dragged them down into the darkness. It is their choice. When you read of the cases of very severe examples of possession, those evil spirits are souls. They were at one time a human person that lived on earth, or a being from some other reality, but they are a soul that has crossed that line because it is what for some reason appeals to their sense of being.

T. As Gerod talked about evil spirits, I continued to hear the distinction between the darkness and the souls in darkness. According to Gerod, the souls in darkness cannot reincarnate. They exist in some state or dimension of consciousness outside time and space. Also, according to Gerod, these souls in darkness—some of them at least—could maintain a constant presence with someone, or they could make periodic contact at different times in a person’s life. Even more troubling, he was saying that these souls, from their vantage point in the darkness, could have access to a soul once it incarnates, and that it could even have access to a soul over lifetimes. Chapter: Darkness and Evil (pg. 202-203)

T. I continued talking to Gerod about souls aligned with darkness and as the questions became more specific, so too did the questions about darkness. In one of those dialogues, Gerod became more explicit about the distinction between darkness and the dark souls. I asked him again about those souls, as humans, who had lived an evil life. I was still trying to understand this idea of souls who, at the time of death, do not go to the Light, but continue to exist. Gerod said these souls “become very aligned with that darkness.” Chapter: Darkness and Evil (pg. 205)
_________________
This is the last excerpt:

T. The dialogues with Gerod brought into focus the idea of darkness as an energy and force, separate from souls. Making this distinction, I also began to focus more clearly on those souls who existed and operated in darkness. Specifically, I was concerned about those spirits whom I described as intentionally harassing, intruding on, or acting toward a client in threatening or destructive ways. These kinds of spirits had been an issue all along and they were very much a part of these long discussions with Gerod about darkness.

Gerod’s attitude toward these spirits was always one of deep com- passion. He viewed them as souls, as beings of Light who had become cut off from the Divine and the Light of their own souls, some to a greater extent than others. He saw them as souls who through fear or rage or pain or confusion had become entangled in the consciousness of darkness. Gerod saw their disconnection from the Light as these souls’ deepest pain. No matter how hateful, ruthless, or conniving these spirits might be, Gerod saw their feelings and actions as born out of their pain and confusion.
Gerod talked about these discarnate souls caught in darkness, but he also talked about souls incarnated here on earth that can be ensnared or caught up in darkness. Unlike with darkness itself, these incarnate souls “do not seek to obliterate Light in a universal way, but they seek to gain power and control in their physical reality.”

This also is where Gerod made the distinction between souls in darkness who were evil, and those souls who were lost in it, or hiding in it, or had become prey to the evil souls and demonic powers that exist in darkness. Chapter: Darkness and Evil (pg. 215-216)
___________________

This response is probably more than you bargained for. It's more than I expected to say. However, it is an important issue, i.e. that all souls are/possess the Light essence and they always have the free choice to return home to the Light. Concerning ‘dark souls,’ Gerod said that choice may not happen easily because of the pain these souls would have to confront within themselves.
 

Alex

Administrator
#77
#78
...it is an important issue, i.e. that all souls are/possess the Light essence and they always have the free choice to return home to the Light. Concerning ‘dark souls,’ Gerod said that choice may not happen easily because of the pain these souls would have to confront within themselves.
And my takeaway is that regardless of the condition of any soul, no soul situation is hopeless from the perspective that a soul in darkness could cross some "imaginary line" where it could never return to the Light.

I know that I want this to be true and I have operated under the assumption that this is true.
 
#79
In this section of Soul-Centered Healing... in the Past Life Personalities and Present Life Repercussions section Dr. Zinser writes -

"Quite frequently, you will also see past-lfe and present-life ego-states form groups together because they share a particular issue, conflict, or experience that bridges lifetimes."

and my thoughts led to this speculation -

Could a series of traumas that share the same root cause (“particular issue”) generate a reflection in the current lifetime where the reflective “triggering” events experienced in this lifetime actually be generated (engineered) by the soul, for the self to deal with this lesson opportunity, to achieve release once and for all? Is this a truer meaning of the term, "karma," as opposed to the seemingly popular one related to a "payback" concept?

I ask this because if so, this might help explain what many folks use as reason to conclude there is no God or that if there be, God is unjust… that if they open to the possibility that lesson opportunities can span multiple lifetimes, they kill two birds with one stone – one bird is “there’s no life after death much less the possibility of prior lives” and two – “that the dynamic we live in is unjust (and if they like, they can say God isn’t unjust).”
 
#80
Maybe not quite in tune with Dr. Zinser 's way of expressing things, but it was my own realisation that the painful issues I was dealing with could not have any cause in the present lifetime, that led to an openness towards the possibility of past lives.

Not long after that, I went through stages of pulling deeply-embedded feelings to the surface. I'd tried unsuccessfully for a number of years to push them away, to bury them. But eventually I decided to do the opposite, I allowed them to flow forth. It was painful, I wept, for weeks, it tapered off but didn't completely stop until a number of years later. With that, I also found myself engaging with a genuine acceptance of some sort of God, as well as identification of a past life persona.

It was that process of emotional release and healing which was so real, it was not an illusion, that gave me the certainty that past lives exist.
 
Top