Ex-Stargate Head Ed May Unyielding Re Materialism, Slams Dean Radin |341|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Ex-Stargate Head Ed May Unyielding Re Materialism, Slams Dean Radin |341|
    by Alex Tsakiris | Feb 28 | Consciousness Science, Near-Death Experience, Parapsychology

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    Ed May ran the U.S. Stargate psychic spying program for 10 years, but as a materialist, rejects psychic woo.[​IMG]
    photo by: Skeptiko
    On this episode of Skeptiko…

    Alex Tsakiris: And [Dr. Dean Radin] was the first guy to say, “…let’s see if a meditator can affect that photon beam within a double-slit experiment,” and again, an astounding result. I mean, statistically an overwhelming result showing that, yes, human consciousness collapses the wave function.

    Dr. Ed May: Dean Radin’s a good friend of mine, he is simply one of the most creative people we have in our field, but I’m sad to report, his idea of consciousness and wave functions are just demonstrably inconsistent with 80 years’ worth of experiment and theory, it’s just simply not the case.

    (later)

    Alex Tsakiris: …but take the near-death experience science, I mean, there it’s kind of game over, because now we have the brain out of the equation, the brain doesn’t…

    Dr. Ed May: No, no, no, no, no, no, no absolutely not. I’ve just been engaged in a huge debate over this issue of near-death experiences, arguing with my colleagues that that is hard evidence for survival of bodily death. First off, there’s nobody that has had a near-death experience, who’s in fact dead. It’s a different category…

    Alex Tsakiris: Not true… not true, if we were going to answer that question…

    Dr. Ed May: I’ve read the literature in detail, just finished reading a book about it by one of the biggest proponents sir…

    Alex Tsakiris: Nope… nope…

    ————————————

    Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. Of course, as you know, I always say the same thing at the beginning, I say controversial science, but primarily what this show has dealt with is consciousness science and this battle of the idea of whether consciousness, your minute by minute experience, is more than just your brain, and of course that’s important, because if it is, and it is because we’ve shown it over and over again, but if it is, then it more or less overturns science in some pretty important ways.

    Now, for a long time it was always assumed that psi effects; ESP, telepathy precognition, that kind of stuff, that if that was proven true, then the materialist, the mind=brain folks, would have to admit they’re wrong, because the assumption being made, and I always point to Daniel Dennett, the philosopher who was famous back in the day when the atheists were kind of running the world and saying “consciousness is an illusion” and along with that was this idea that “consciousness can do no work,” consciousness being this non-physical thing that’s going on up there, well that can’t really “do” anything, that can’t really impact our physical world. So if psi was shown to be happening it was assumed that it would be game over, the non-physical affecting the physical, we can no longer rely on this scientific materialism. This is why there was this tremendous pushback on psi. For example, the James Randi folks and all the very materialistic people would just rail against parapsychology and all the psi stuff as hard as they could. And of course this led to them making up a bunch of crap that we’ve gone over again and again and again on this show. Their debunking of psi was really a shame.

    Now, in that long list of things that got the strong pushback from the “skeptics,” was remote viewing. So, if you go back 20 years ago skeptics were saying, “Oh, that never really happened… it never really worked.” Then you had a bunch of people come out of the Stargate program and say, “Of course it worked.” We even had presidents saying, “Oh yeah, it was unbelievable what they found. They found this missing plane,” all these stories came out that made it clear to anyone who was paying attention that, yes, something real was happening.

    Now, all this is a lead up to how this show came to be, because the other day I was watching this excellent video from a very excellent parapsychologist, Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove, who you might recall was on this show a long time ago, probably need to have him back, need to make a note of that, but anyway, on his new revamped version of Thinking Aloud, he had today’s guest, Dr. Ed May and I was rather stunned to find that, here is a guy who is a PhD physicist, ran the Stargate Program for 10 years, is absolutely certain from all his scientific training that this is something that really occurred, that is, psychic spying was real, really happened, they sat in this room and they saw stuff that was going on on the other side of the world. He’s saying, operationally, we know it happened, experimentally, we know it happened. It happened, get over it, but at the same time, what he’s saying is that, “You know what, I’m still a physicalist, I’m still a materialist, I’m still holding to the idea that it’s all in the brain; mind=brain. So, of course, that piqued my interest and I reached out to Ed and was able to get him to agree to come on the show.

    Now, it turned out to be quite a contentious interview at times. Ed’s got a lot of strong opinions, he’s not afraid to express them and I, as you know, am generally not someone to back down from asking questions… and I know that sometimes pisses people off.

    Now, Ed says a bunch of stuff in this interview that, in the final analysis I think is a little bit out there, but we can discuss that later and pull that apart in the forum, but there’s one thing that he said that I really did want to follow up on directly, and that was his comment about Dean Radin, because I’ve always found Dean Radin to be absolutely one of the smartest guys in the room, when it comes to parapsychology; and certainly a topnotch, careful researcher. So when Ed did his little shtick on Dean Radin’s recent double-slit experiment, I really knew I wanted to follow up with that. I was able to have a little email correspondence with Dean and I will update you on what I discovered at the end of this show.
     
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  2. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Can't get the podcast to play, either here or on Skeptiko proper Alex.

    Says: NO RESULTS FOUND
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  3. Alex

    Alex New

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    internet probs... all fixed now I think.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  4. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    Great choice in interviews Alex!
     
  5. "I’ve always found Dean Radin to be absolutely one of the smartest guys in the room, when it comes to parapsychology;"

    Revised 3/27/17 ...

     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  6. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    Interesting
     
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  7. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    I just heard that part about the "80 years of experiments and theory" and wondered... Does Ed intentionally ignore the postures of several of the founding fathers of quantum physics when it came to consciousness?
     
  8. Bucky

    Bucky Member

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    This is an interesting interview. I don't think I have heard Ed May interviewed before...

    As regards Radin's study one thing that baffles me is what is the connection between meditation and collapse of the wave function. I get the experimental question "does consciousness collapse the wave function"? But consciousness and meditation are unlikely the same thing. If the answer to the question is "Yes", then any conscious being somehow interacts with reality collapsing wave functions... which is very very vague, but still...

    Why would a human meditator have any advantage over, say, a cat or a giraffe in collapsing wave functions?

    If Radin's results are correct aren't we just seeing the effects of micro-pk on photons?
    Or... I will rephrase this and say... Radin's conclusions only tell us that human meditators can produce a micro-pk effects on elementary particles. That's pretty much all we can say, no?

    cheers
     
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  9. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    I'm a quarter way in to the interview. Correct me if I am mistaken, but is he a materialist physicist, who believe in ESP and Pre-cog, but disagrees on what causes it?
     
  10. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    Also, based on his stance about people misquoting "non-local", I'm inclined to think that he must be quite invested in the hidden variable theories.
     
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  11. Ed May is ignorant of the research, and he hasn't had an NDE (as far as I know).

    Melvin Morse is a doctor who studies NDE's said this (to Alex) about a patient of his who had an NDE:
    She was documented to be under water for at least 17 minutes. ... she had no spontaneous heartbeat for I would say at least 45 minutes, until she arrived at the emergency room. Then our team got there.

    She was really dead. All this debate over how close do these patients come to death, etc., you know, Alex, I had the privilege of resuscitating my own patients and she was, for all intents and purposes, dead. In fact, I had told her parents that. I said that it was time for them to say goodbye to her.
    Joe McMoneagle who worked as a military remote viewer and has and also had an NDE said this:
    One of the things that does occur somewhere in that six month period [after an NDE], you reach a bottom point in that depression where you suddenly realize that, well since you know that consciousness continues, and you don't really cease to exist as an individual

    References:

    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2012/05/skeptiko-interview-with-dr-melvin-morse.html
    http://www.skeptiko.com/172-melvin-morse-doctors-do-not-listen-to-near-death-experience-accounts/
    So by chance or coincidence or fate or whatever, I happened to be in Pocatello, Idaho and there was a child there who had drowned in a community swimming pool. She was documented to be under water for at least 17 minutes. It just so happened that a pediatrician was in the locker room at the same community swimming pool and he attempted to revive her on the spot. His intervention probably saved her life but again, he documented that she had no spontaneous heartbeat for I would say at least 45 minutes, until she arrived at the emergency room. Then our team got there.

    She was really dead. All this debate over how close do these patients come to death, etc., you know, Alex, I had the privilege of resuscitating my own patients and she was, for all intents and purposes, dead. In fact, I had told her parents that. I said that it was time for them to say goodbye to her. This was a very deeply religious Mormon family. They actually did. They crowded around the bedside and held hands and prayed for her and such as that. She was then transported to Salt Lake City. She lived. She not only lived but three days later she made a full recovery.

    Alex Tsakiris: And what did she tell you…

    Dr. Melvin Morse: Her first words, the first words she said when she came out of her coma, she turned to the nurse down at Primary Children’s in Salt Lake City. She says, “Where are my friends?” And then they’d say, “What do you mean, where are your friends?” She’d say, “Yeah, all the people that I met in Heaven. Where are they?” [Laughs]

    The innocence of a child. So I saw her in follow-up, another one of these odd twists of fate. I happened to be in addition doing my residency and just happened to be working in the same community clinic in that area. My jaw just dropped to the floor when she and her mother walked in. I was like, “What?” I had not even heard that she had lived. I had assumed that she had died. She looked at me and she said to her mother, “There’s the man that put a tube down my nose.” [Laughs]

    Alex Tsakiris: What are you thinking at that point when she says that?

    Dr. Melvin Morse: You know, it’s one of those things—I laughed. I sort of giggled the way a teenager would giggle about sex. It was just embarrassing. I didn’t know what to think. Certainly, I’d trained at Johns Hopkins. I thought when you died you died. I said, “What do you mean, you saw me put a tube in your nose?”

    She said, “Oh, yeah. I saw you take me into another room that looked like a doughnut.”

    She said things like, “You called someone on the phone and you asked, ‘What am I supposed to do next?’”

    She described the nurses talking about a cat who had died. One of the nurses had a cat that had died and it was just an incidental conversation. She said she was floating out of her body during this entire time. I just sort of laughed. And then she taps me on the wrist. You’ve got to hear this, Alex.

    After I laughed she taps me on the wrist and she says, “You’ll see, Dr. Morse. Heaven is fun.” [Laughs] I was completely blown away by the entire experience. I immediately determined that I would figure out what was going on here. This was in complete defiance of everything I had been taught in terms of medicine.​


    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/notable-near-death-experiencers-prove.html

    Joe McMoneagle worked for the US military as a remote viewer and he was involved in the research and development that led to the US military's remote viewing program. Joe also had a near-death experience which convinced him that death does not end consciousness and we continue to exist as an individual after death. The following excerpt from an interview with Jeff Rense shows his views on NDEs:

    JOE: One of the things that does occur somewhere in that six month period [after an NDE], you reach a bottom point in that depression where you suddenly realize that, well since you know that consciousness continues, and you don't really cease to exist as an individual, there's no real reason to be depressed about where you are.​
     
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  12. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    Hear the interview, he claims that he is familiar with the research (several times) and also claims that he just finished a book by a proponent. That he clings to the "not really dead" argument is another matter, as is that he misrepresents the postures of several quantum physicists by generalizing. He also goes on a tangent about Stevenson.
     
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  13. I looked at the transcript and saw that. Part of what I am trying to do with the post you quoted is to show that he is wrong when he says he is familiar with the research. He says he is familiar with it but he is not. If he is familiar with the research, then maybe he is being disingenuous but I don't think he would do that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  14. Steve

    Steve Member

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    I don't often disagree with you Jim, but to be honest, I find watching Darren Brown much more impressive than watching John Edwards. I know - take a deep breath, maybe some smelling salts. :D I find Dean Radin, on the other hand, very honest in his views. He's a true scientist imo. That's not that I think John Edwards dishonest, just that he's trying to achieve very different objectives from Dean.

    You seem to be looking at this from a true believers point of view.

    Try seeing it from someone like my own viewpoint, I've no strong personal evidence of psi, no NDE or any other experience. At least nothing that blew me away. But I'm still a proponent, my gut tells me so, as well as the fact that so much makes sense to me. I would have to say I'm not 100% convinced of anything, however 'real' it appears.

    So in a way I 'rate' Dean Radin higher than I do John Edwards. Am I making sense?
     
  15. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    My hunch about this is consciousness communicates routinely with the physical world by collapsing wave functions in the brain. The brain then amplifies the effect massively to produce a limb movement or whatever. Psychics manage to collapse wave functions in other people's brains or in inanimate objects. From that point of view, presentiment might be a vital part of the process, because it lets consciousness see the consequences of collapsing the wave function in particular ways - so the chosen collapse has a purpose.
    I agree with that - the experiment would only have proved that consciousness is directly associated with the wave function collapse IMHO if the effect size had been very large. However, I don't think we can make the opposite deduction, because collapsing wave functions outside the brain is probably extremely difficult.

    David
     
  16. Regarding Ed's "retro causation" explanation....

    Radin expressed this view too. They are both are wrong. NDE's are lucid experiences. The abnormal brain states, before, during and after cardiac arrest that might hypothetically induce ESP cannot produce lucid experiences. Even if someone has a lucid experience like an NDE "retro-cognitively" due to a cardiac arrest, that still requires out of the body consciousness to explain it.

    References:

    ESP is not produced by the brain:
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/near-death-experiences-and-afterlife.html#facts_esp


    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/near-death-experiences-and-afterlife.html#facts_veridical
    Many NDEs occur during cardiac arrest. Residual brain activity is not sufficient to explain memories or conscious experiences that occur during cardiac arrest. And cardiac arrest causes amnesia and confusion shortly before and after the event.

    Some people may suggest an abnormal brain state during the onset or recovery from cardiac arrest may produce clairvoyant visions of events that occur during cardiac arrest. If this is true, the clairvoyance must still be due to out-of-the-body consciousness. The same argument by which NDE researchers conclude that the lucid conscious experience of the NDE cannot be explained by it occuring before or after cardiac arrest can be used to conclude that clairvoyance occurring at the onset or recovery from cardiac arrest must be due to out-of-the-body consciousness. That argument is that the brain activity that occurs at the onset to, or recovery from, cardiac arrest is not capable of supporting lucid consciousness or memories. Any lucid conscious memories, such as those characteristic of NDEs, that occur anytime from the onset to cardiac arrest through the recovery from cardiac arrest, whether psychic or mundane, must be due to out-of-the-body consciousness.

    In other words, if anyone is going to suggest that an abnormal brain state induced by cardiac arrest is responsible for producing ESP, that ESP must be due to consciousness existing out-of-the-body because the abnormal brain states that occur at the onset, duration, and ending of cardiac arrest are not capable of producing memories or supporting the lucid consciousness that is experienced during an NDE. At other times than the onset, duration, or ending of cardiac arrest, the brain is functioning normally and there is no abnormal brain state that might be attributed to the production of ESP. If ESP can produce conscious experiences that do not require the brain, then ESP must be due to out-of-the-body consciousness. In fact, in a subsequent section it will be shown that the best explanation for all forms of ESP is that ESP is not produced by the brain but is a capability of non-physical consciousness. In consideration of this and of all the evidence (below) that the mind can exist separate from the brain, the best explanation for veridical perceptions during NDEs is the spirit leaving the body and retaining memory of the event.
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html#residual
    Greyson
    In cardiac arrest, even neuronal action-potentials, the ultimate physical basis for coordination of neural activity between widely separated brain regions, are rapidly abolished (Kelly et al., 2007). Moreover, cells in the hippocampus, the region thought to be essential for memory formation, are especially vulnerable to the effects of anoxia (Vriens et al., 1996). In short, it is not credible to suppose that NDEs occurring under conditions of general anesthesia, let alone cardiac arrest, can be accounted for in terms of some hypothetical residual capacity of the brain to process and store complex information under those conditions.
    ...
    Greyson
    However, unconsciousness produced by cardiac arrest characteristically leaves patients amnesic and confused for events immediately preceding and following these episodes (Aminoff et al., 1988; Parnia & Fenwick, 2002; van Lommel et al., 2001). Furthermore, a substantial number of NDEs contain apparent time "anchors" in the form of verifiable reports of events occurring during the period of insult itself. For example, a cardiac-arrest victim described by van Lommel et al. (2001) had been discovered lying in a meadow 30 minutes or more prior to his arrival at the emergency room, comatose and cyanotic, and yet days later, having recovered, he was able to describe accurately various circumstances occurring in conjunction with the ensuing resuscitation procedures in the hospital.

    Also see the next section below: The experience occurred during CPR
    The experience occurred during CPR:
    Long
    When you talk to the patients who have actually survived CPR, one thing that is very, very obvious is that the substantial majority of them are confused or amnesic, even when they're successfully recovered. They may be amnesic for the period of time following their successful resuscitation or even for events prior to the time of their cardiac arrest.

    ...

    If you read even a few near-death experiences, you immediately realize that there’s essentially none of them that talk about episodes of confusion or altered mental status when they just don’t understand what’s going on. You really don’t see that at all.

    Again, for near-death experiences, they're highly lucid, organized events. In fact, in the survey we did, we found 76% of people having a near-death experience said their level of consciousness and alertness during the NDE was actually greater than their earthly, everyday life. So again, getting back to statistics, that’s 3/4 and a substantial majority of the remaining 24% still had at least a level of consciousness and alertness equal to their earthly, everyday life.

    So for that to be the statistics that you consistently see during near-death experiences and balance that with a substantial majority of people being confused around the time of their successful resuscitation from CPR, you really have to come away with the conclusion that even if there’s blood flow to the brain induced by CPR, it's a life-saving maneuver. By no means is that correlated with clear consciousness and certainly nowhere near the level of consciousness and alertness with near-death experiences. You just don’t see that.

    But also, in addition to that, note that the substantial majority of people that have a near-death experience and have an out-of-body experience associated with cardiac arrest, are actually seeing their physical body well prior to the time that CPR is initiated. Once CPR is initiated, you don’t see any alteration in the flow of the near-death experience, suggesting that whatever blood flow might be going back to the brain is affecting the content, modifying it at all, in any way.

    ...

    When there’s a cardiac arrest, the out-of-body observations that are often described during these near-death experiences certainly correlates to a time prior to CPR being initiated, and prior to a time there should be no possibility of a conscious, lucid, organized experience. And yet that’s exactly what happens.

    I'll tell you another thing, too, is if you were doing CPR and that were accounting for memory, I would tell you that you would hear a lot more from near-death experiencers. They would talk about their remembrance of the pain of the chest compressions.

    Alex, that’s a fairly painful procedure. It often breaks ribs and hurts. And yet, even when you have a patient who had a cardiac arrest and had a near-death experience, essentially never do you hear them describing as part of their near-death experience the pain of chest compressions.

    ...

    And if their consciousness was really returning during CPR, wouldn't near-death experiencers not have out-of-body perceptions but describe their perceptions from within their physical body? And yet you don’t see that with near-death experiences.

    So in other words, if you started CPR and they had a near-death experience and suddenly they started to have some consciousness, you’d expect that instead of having the out-of-body experience where their consciousness is apart from their body, their consciousness would be within their body. You just don’t see that.
    None of the materialist attempts to explain NDEs can really explain them. NDEs cannot be explained by: a lack of oxygen, a dying brain, hallucinations, religious expectations, cultural expectations, hearing about medical procedures after the fact, hearing during resuscitation, brain dysfunction, retinal dysfunction causing an image of a tunnel, brain chemicals such as ketamine, endogenous opioids, neurotransmitter imbalances, or hallucinogens including DMT, REM intrusions, epilepsy or seizures, psychopathology, unique personality traits, residual brain activity during unconsciousness, the experience occurring before or after brain activity stopped, brain activity during CPR, evolutionary adaptation, depersonalization, memory of birth, medication, naloxone, defense against dying, partial anesthesia, misuse of anecdotes, or selective reporting.
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html
     
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  17. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I have yet to listen to this interview, but i am curious, does Ed May propose a materialistic explanation of remote viewing or precognition? To me, I think all the various 'paranormal' phenomena are linked together by the fact that they employ consciousness in ways that make no sense from a strictly materialist standpoint - so to some extent, the existence of one such phenomenon strengthens the probability that they all occur.

    Put another way, any extension of science that could explain remote viewing, could undoubtedly explain a hell of a lot more as well - and since it is claimed to be possible to remote view the past and future, this would probably include life continuing after death via some sort of NDE consciousness separation event.

    The materialist view of consciousness (in as much as one exists) is of a statistical computation performed within the brain - it can't review the future, and can't communicate at a distance, or perform micro-PK, or observe stuff remotely without technical wizardry.

    David
     
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  18. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    I see... Carry on then.
     
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  19. Yes you are making sense. I don't disagree with you. If you want scientific evidence to convince you of psi Dean Radin is helpful. That's what I meant when I wrote "all of Dean Radin's books and papers which tell you nothing more than psi is real " But if you want to understand how psi works, I think you would do better watching John Edward.
     
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  20. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    The bit at the end when Alex said ed may wanted to take down the interview and start over and Alex said no. ed May e mailed him back swearing lololol
     
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