Gordon White, Is Magic Outdated Tech? |405|

#1
Gordon White, Is Magic Outdated Tech? |405|
by Alex Tsakiris | Mar 12 | Consciousness Research, Others, Parapsychology, Spirituality
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Gordon White of Rune Soup returns to talk Magic, ET and neo-liberal social engineering?
photo by: Skeptiko
I’m not much of a sci-fi fan.
David (from the movie Prometheus): Am I interrupting, I thought you might be running low?
But maybe I should be more of one.
Charlie Holloway: Pour yourself a glass pal.
David: Thank you, but I’m afraid it would be wasted on me.
Charlie Holloway: You think we wasted our time coming here, don’t you?

That’s a clip from Ridley Scott’s Prometheus.
David: Your question depends on the understanding of what you hope to achieve by coming here.
Charlie Holloway: What we hoped to achieve was to meet our makers, to get answers. Why they even made us in the first place.

And darn, if it doesn’t get right to the heart of the issue.
David: Why do you think your people made me?
Charlie Holloway: We made you because we could.
David: Can you imagine how disappointing it would be for you to hear the same thing from your creator?

Why does it seem like we are compelled to try and “create better than the creator Gods,” as my friend Miguel Conner says. And why do I get so pissed off when I learn that that’s exactly what we’ve been doing?
Alex Tsakiris: They weren’t doing this from a shamanic or a magic perspective, they were doing it, as near as we can tell, “Let’s figure out how the fucking aliens do it and do it the same way. Let’s see if we can break people open in order so that we might perfect this technology.” That’s what intrigues me Gordon, what if there really is a technology component to this? And in that respect, maybe we would look at the shamanic and the magic traditions that you’re talking about in a different perspective.
Gordon White: I would just say, before we talk about the technology thing, if we are comparing the projects there of trying to weaponize these capacities of these children, that is kind of trying to break into the spirit world, and the word shaman is culturally bound, we all know that, we know what we’re talking about.
What you will find in cultures that has this as a function within it, is that the spirits choose them. So, you don’t torture all of the children in a tribe, you find the ones that the spirits have picked and go, “Unfortunately for you my little son or daughter, you’re not going to have a very good life. You get to be the shaman.”

So, as you might have figured out by now, today’s guest is Gordon White of Rune Soup. Someone I feel like I can open up to about all of my deepest, darkest extended consciousness fears and that’s what we do in this interview, along with me doing my usual poking and prodding, but who better to do that with than folks that you genuinely like and respect.
Stick around for my interview with Gordon White.
 
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Didn't finish only got 17 minutes in. I believe magick is outdated tech to an extent l, the props are not needed, neither are robes. I'll finish this tonight the interview might be totally different
 
#3
believe magick is outdated tech to an extent l, the props are not needed, neither are robes.
Of course not, but they are huge fun. If you don't have the help of spirits without cajoling them, the ceremonial rigmarole can maybe help - or not - as spirits decide. But do not under-estimate the power of dressing up and the ritual drama. Nothing to do with magic in a direct way. Think of the ritual of romance - probably a lost cause in this vulgar age - or the ritual associated with the military, graduation and anything else Americans in particular seem to like to ritualise (we of British heritage tend to be more restrained).

Magic and ritual have no necessary connection and are two entirely different things. They can go together, but they don't have to. Ritual is not outdated. Ritual magic may be - but I don't know enough on that theme to have an opinion.

Now I gotta go listen to Gordon and Alex.
 
#4
he ceremonial rigmarole can maybe help - or not - as spirits decide.
Right. Ritual in large part is more about us than it is about the spirits. It is about putting ourselves into the right mental state and showing respect/admiration for that which one is trying to do as part of the ritual. The spirits however, are perhaps more likely to take seriously and appreciate the requests of those who show respect/put some effort/resources into making contact with and asking favors of them. They may even be more likely to troll or downright harm those who do not protect themselves. We could probably debate whether magically protective measures have to be ritualized, but many have experienced them to be more effective when they are.

the props are not needed, neither are robes.
The "props" or magical implements are often created with particular materials and created at particular times to be resonant with whatever the aim of their use is. There are a whole lot of magicians who've created astrological talismans that would disagree with you. I don't think this is nothing, but understand how many do.
 
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In response to Alex's tee'd up question of is a government/military/corporate attempt to break into the spirit world OK? I think this entirely depends on the disposition of those in the power positions of said agencies. If it is being done benevolently, as a means of simply exploring reality, and with the aim of benefitting all, and isn't traumatizing or harming anyone to do so - sure, thats OK. I think we all know that is highly unlikely at this point unless those running these sorts of operations have done a complete 180 in approach since MK Ultra and whatever "school for the gifted" Strieber supposedly went to. Is it OK to be cultural relativists and say that the intentionally traumatic experiences indigenous cultures put their young people through to yield transcendental experience and spirit contact are not immoral? I don't know. If we do, why are MK like ops immoral - because they aren't part of a cultural tradition? Maybe they are, in fact, a development of a Western cultural tradition that went underground some time ago. Again I return to this all depending on the motive - if it is benevolent play and exploration for the benefit of all (albeit with some potential disregard for the physical bodies of participants) then maybe it is OK. If the motivation is entirely to increase the power/control/wealth of the individuals running the show, then no it isn't.
 
#6
or the ritual associated with the military, graduation and anything else Americans in particular seem to like to ritualise (we of British heritage tend to be more restrained).
no smiley face there so I'm assuming yr serious... so, just to let you understand our perspective, us yanks see it the other way around. we offer a watered-down version of the pomp and ceremony your "royals" made famous.
 
#7
Right. Ritual in large part is more about us than it is about the spirits. It is about putting ourselves into the right mental state and showing respect/admiration for that which one is trying to do as part of the ritual. The spirits however, are perhaps more likely to take seriously and appreciate the requests of those who show respect/put some effort/resources into making contact with and asking favors of them. They may even be more likely to troll or downright harm those who do not protect themselves. We could probably debate whether magically protective measures have to be ritualized, but many have experienced them to be more effective when they are.


The "props" or magical implements are often created with particular materials and created at particular times to be resonant with whatever the aim of their use is. There are a whole lot of magicians who've created astrological talismans that would disagree with you. I don't think this is nothing, but understand how many do.
I was with you re, "more about us than it is about the spirits" but how do you square that with, "may even be more likely to troll or downright harm those who do not protect themselves."

I'm starting to believe that this vast murky middle is all of our making.
 
#8
In response to Alex's tee'd up question of is a government/military/corporate attempt to break into the spirit world OK? I think this entirely depends on the disposition of those in the power positions of said agencies. If it is being done benevolently, as a means of simply exploring reality, and with the aim of benefitting all, and isn't traumatizing or harming anyone to do so - sure, thats OK. I think we all know that is highly unlikely at this point unless those running these sorts of operations have done a complete 180 in approach since MK Ultra and whatever "school for the gifted" Strieber supposedly went to. Is it OK to be cultural relativists and say that the intentionally traumatic experiences indigenous cultures put their young people through to yield transcendental experience and spirit contact are not immoral? I don't know. If we do, why are MK like ops immoral - because they aren't part of a cultural tradition? Maybe they are, in fact, a development of a Western cultural tradition that went underground some time ago. Again I return to this all depending on the motive - if it is benevolent play and exploration for the benefit of all (albeit with some potential disregard for the physical bodies of participants) then maybe it is OK. If the motivation is entirely to increase the power/control/wealth of the individuals running the show, then no it isn't.
not to go all US constitutional on this, but it seems like this is a "we the people" kind of thing. if you can't do it in the open, if it isn't transparent, then it's outside the charter. I know this is an impossible standard, but the standard is the standard.

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
 
#9
I was with you re, "more about us than it is about the spirits" but how do you square that with, "may even be more likely to troll or downright harm those who do not protect themselves."
By acknowledging that the spirit world is inhabited with denizens with the same variety of dispositions as the variety of human dispositions there are in our realm.

I'm starting to believe that this vast murky middle is all of our making.
Have we also made up that there is a whole spectrum of psychopathic and sociopathic behaviors among humans? Have we made up that there are some members of any species that have a different personality than others? No. I don't see why the spirit world or the extended consciousness realm should be any more black and white than the unextended consciousness realm.
 
#10
if you can't do it in the open, if it isn't transparent, then it's outside the charter.
Completely agreed. I think this alone is enough to assume that the motivations behind these operations are not benevolent but of people trying to manipulate extended consciousness for their own gain - classic aggrandizer / ritual sodality behaviors.
 
#11
I was with you re, "more about us than it is about the spirits" but how do you square that with, "may even be more likely to troll or downright harm those who do not protect themselves."

I'm starting to believe that this vast murky middle is all of our making.
Alex,
I think that it is squared by saying that the ritual is about us when we want to access (or protect from) wider dimensions *on demand*. Otherwise, stuff is just happening as it does and spirits can troll us, we accidently lapse into expanded consciousness accidently sometimes, etc......the ritual is about control.
 
#12
Just wanted to say this was a wonderful interview and fascinating insight from Gordon as usual. Love the level 3 discussions. Glad Alex Jones was brought up too. I think he’s great! The Andy Kaufman of our time.
 
#13
Have we also made up that there is a whole spectrum of psychopathic and sociopathic behaviors among humans?
yes and no... seems to matter how you frame it. we live in a culture where the dominant paradigm suggests that all the behaviors you've mentioned are 100% brain stuff... and when I say dominant I mean dominant. you and I think differently, but we are on the outside. so, now on top of that, we're going to layer our limited understanding of how the spirit world works? I'm ok with this exercise, but more in the "inquiry to perpetuate doubt" camp :)

I'm also very open to the possibility that schizophrenia is related to spirit communication in some way we don't fully understand:
Schizophrenia, Possession And Freedom - With Jerry Marzinsky The ...
 
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#14
Alex,
I think that it is squared by saying that the ritual is about us when we want to access (or protect from) wider dimensions *on demand*. Otherwise, stuff is just happening as it does and spirits can troll us, we accidently lapse into expanded consciousness accidently sometimes, etc......the ritual is about control.
I get your point... but if we follow this down the tulpa / thought-form path we look like a cat chasing our tail. I don't think the non dual path is everything, but I feel like I need to get a lot further down that path before I can say anything halfway intelligent about spirits.
 
#16
yes and no... seems to matter how you frame it. we live in a culture where the dominant paradigm suggests that all the behaviors you've mentioned are 100% brain stuff... and when I say dominant I mean dominant. you and I think differently, but we are on the outside. so, now on top of that, we're going to layer our limited understanding of how the spirit world works? I'm ok with this exercise, but more in the "inquiry to perpetuate doubt" camp :)

I'm also very open to the possibility that schizophrenia is related to spirit communication in some way we don't fully understand:
Schizophrenia, Possession And Freedom - With Jerry Marzinsky The ...
Thanks for that link - this is something I have almost taken for granted once I gave up on the materialist philosophy.

I mean, the evidence for NDE's and (to a lesser extent) reincarnation is very good, and these phenomena depend on the concept of a spirit joining or separating from a body. It hardly seems much of a conceptual leap to assume that bodies can end up under control of more than one spirit.

David
 
#17
no smiley face there so I'm assuming yr serious... so, just to let you understand our perspective, us yanks see it the other way around. we offer a watered-down version of the pomp and ceremony your "royals" made famous.
I tend to agree. The Brits pomp and ceremony inside the military, especially for state activities tends to be much more pronounced than ours. Our military 'Pass in Review' is much less formal. We don't go in for French Bastille Day or Moscow's Victory Day type parades, and giant high stepping horse brigades with fluffy shoulder boards and swords drawn. Marching nuclear ICBM's down main street.

But I suppose that neither the Brits nor French compare to the old days of Prussia and the House of Orange. The goose stepping and massive ornate parades which sought to intimidate foes and encourage the fearful citizen alike.
 
#18
Thanks for that link - this is something I have almost taken for granted once I gave up on the materialist philosophy.

I mean, the evidence for NDE's and (to a lesser extent) reincarnation is very good, and these phenomena depend on the concept of a spirit joining or separating from a body. It hardly seems much of a conceptual leap to assume that bodies can end up under control of more than one spirit.

David
Agreed. Then again, the evidence for us as "individuals" (whatever that means) having willful control over our ability to interact with other souls / people / living-beings, also seems well-established / obvious. so I'm just calling into question the assumptions were making about how our will is able to open and close with regard to other entities in the "spirit world."
 
#19
Agreed. Then again, the evidence for us as "individuals" (whatever that means) having willful control over our ability to interact with other souls / people / living-beings, also seems well-established / obvious. so I'm just calling into question the assumptions were making about how our will is able to open and close with regard to other entities in the "spirit world."
Having listened to all of that discussion, I think he would make an excellent guest on Skeptiko, because he is also willing to discuss the big picture.

David
 
#20
yes and no... seems to matter how you frame it. we live in a culture where the dominant paradigm suggests that all the behaviors you've mentioned are 100% brain stuff... and when I say dominant I mean dominant. you and I think differently, but we are on the outside. so, now on top of that, we're going to layer our limited understanding of how the spirit world works? I'm ok with this exercise, but more in the "inquiry to perpetuate doubt" camp :)

I'm also very open to the possibility that schizophrenia is related to spirit communication in some way we don't fully understand:
Schizophrenia, Possession And Freedom - With Jerry Marzinsky The ...
Hi Alex
Jerry would make a tie in between you quote "where is your i phone" and the shaman talking to spirits ie different types of tools.
But of course you need to ask yourself where do the thoughts come from for i phones, many inventors had ideas just pop
into their heads, very few great ideas come from logic which works better backwards it seems.I think Gordon was trying to steer you
in that direction, these wizard types never like to say things directly, something to do with embodying the trickster archetype.
I still would rather substitute thoughts/ideas for spirits or magic, they are really real, imagine every thought as a leaf that falls from a tree,
much better to have your garden full of beautiful leaves than ugly curled up deformed ones?The metaphor works in many ways.
 
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