Gordon White, Will Magic Kill Parapsychology? |366|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    I agree about the field being dominated by fraudsters!

    But I was curious what makes you include Tsarion in this group? I ask b/c I have found some flecks of gold there, and I think he is very vocal about the 'conspiracy', and seems to have a genuine concern for the current state of culture and western civilization. Certainly I do try to be realistic about his upbringing and influences, but I've seen his work evolve so much which has seemed organic and not so much based, at least more recently and as far as I can tell, following deep state agendas, but in fact the contrary. I'd love to know what I might be missing!
     
  2. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    Gaga knows Al will take the best cuts for himself, but she won't protest.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    Tsarion engages in florid, voluminous word-salad that sounds great in the moment, but contradicts himself five minutes later without apology.

    I catch up on his podcasts every couple of years, get frustrated, then remember why I quit him.
     
  4. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    LOL! I feel that way about Mark Passio. :)

    But then again, Tsarion has done enormous amounts of work, and I think he contradicts himself, b/c he's looking at loads of predecessors who contradict themselves. I wonder how one stays one year in this work without finding a dozen and one contraditions!
     
  5. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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  6. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    I actually don't think Passio is as self-contradictory as Tsarion. Passio's weirdness is his tendency to become a zealot for whatever is the latest fashionable narrative.

    Fifteen years ago he was "9/11 was THIS, and NO other way!". Ten years ago he was "Resource Based Economy is the solution and you are a FOOL if you don't believe me!". Five years ago it was "Enlil is our enemy! Jesus was our Space Brother!". I think this year he's gone full-circle back to some type of Gnosticism or Hermeticism.

    He seems like a genuinely compassionate guy, but his zealous style is off-putting to me. Some people really like it though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  7. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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  8. CactusLand

    CactusLand Member

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    Really interesting conversation. I wanted to comment on the topic of Stephen Skinner and the need for precision when doing magic. I am a practicing astrologer and tarot reader and Skinner's point about needing to strictly follow the 'liturgy' of magic or divination is absolutely true and gets at the fundamental paradox of magic and the occult in general. Go to any astrology conference and pony up to the bar at 1AM and begin a conversation with just about any astrologer and they will all say the same thing (at least after a few drinks). 1. Of course astrology works, it is truly amazing and by practicing it we are constantly reminded of the wonders of the universe. 2. We have absolutely no idea how it works, and technique and rules, while absolutely necessary are at the same time absurd and ridiculous.

    How can this be? We need the rules, techniques, traditions etc. to make sense of the chart, but at the same time almost all of us recognize the fact that Indian astrology and Chinese astrology work just as well as Western astrology but use very different systems. Most of us will also admit (maybe after a few more drinks) that there have been times when mistakes have been made about dates, times, etc on charts, but the readings went fabulously. I have done literally thousands of tarot readings, and occasionally I have made serious mistakes in the 'liturgy' of the readings and it makes no difference, the readings went well.

    The key is the energy. When people come to me with very serious issues and the energy is right, it is astounding what the cards can do. It never ceases to amaze me yet I know that it is not the 'cards' per se yet it took me years of study of the cards to be able to do truly profound readings. This is the paradox at the heart of this issue and I am afraid Dr. Radin will never discover the answer in a lab and maybe that is why he has begun to use the 'm' word, because those of us who practice these rites know they can never be 'explained' as they transcend all of our conceptions of spirit and matter. As a fine writer once wrote "You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart."

    Something happens in divination, and I suspect the same in magic though i have very little experience with it. Something in the the mix of desire, tradition, belief, liturgy etc. makes all this work, and it works. There is a wonderful astrologer, Geoffrey Cornelius, who wrote maybe one of the most influential books of the last 20 years or so in astrology The Moment of Astrology: Origins in Divination. I highly encourage anyone interested to explore Geoffrey Cornelius's work, here is an interview with him.

    http://theastrologypodcast.com/2015/11/24/geoffrey-cornelius-moment-of-astrology/

    Cornelius gets at the essence of this question by focusing on the moment and the direct interaction between the astrologer and the querent, something happens at that moment between the two people and the chart that creates the 'magic' or the divination. His work has given many a much deeper understanding of what is going on. The key point is we KNOW these things work but my guess is we are simply going to have to move past the idea of an explainable mechanism, we are going to have to live with that enigma.
     
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  9. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    Look at humans as batteries for a moment. It can only be charged to a certain extent before it burns out and dies. No human can wield that much energy on their own to rid the world of Nuclear weapons. Its like charging a while city with one battery. It would have to be a combined effort.

    Add to the fact that there are dark magicians who are keeping things they way they are (majority of magicians)
     
  10. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Brilliant, because I've had enough unbelievably odd experiences with tarot cards. But, do you think it's also true for those who make the cards, and the 'rules' (ie the original charts based on various hypothesis depending on time/place and shape of earth and effects of solar systems)? Is it as arbitrary for them as it is for the rest of us, do you think?

    It seems like the big push of Big Data is to redefine 'arbitrary' at a profound level. How absurd and ridiculous will it be when the quantum computers know how it works before the rest of us do?!
     
  11. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    An interesting recent interview with Gordon White about magic plants with a couple of 'witches' :)

    I find it fascinating how mainstream 'entheogen' use is becoming, seeing articles in NYT even, and other mainstream sources. Of course alternative sites this is nothing new at all, but also becoming 'advised' now by all kinds of 'experts'.

    http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/5/1/c51...36520358&hwt=975b848702bda786b977b37e99b7cdd2

    They speak of animism as the only 'one true way' Yikes!

    I'm not saying at all this is not a 'valid' path of exploring the altered states. It's one that fascinates me for sure and one I explore. But it's more fascinating to me how they naturally create a hierarchy around themselves and their personal work and thoughts and group, with them at the top, of course. A one puts in a decade of research and thinks she knows it all!

    Where are the real shamans, I'd like to know, the ones with real ancestral and tribal knowledge, passed along for a thousand years, not ones fairying about through channeling and drug use alone and trying to make a living through drugging others. Is that always what shaman have done? If you haven't been 'enlightened' yet, it's b/c the right dosage and combination of poisons have not yet been ingested? In order to properly function in and properly digest 'reality' this such and such dose of 'unreality' is required?

    Still, I will try it. :) And glad they have some suggestions on how to do it.

    The level of confidence is very off-putting, bordering on arrogance, and I've never experienced a profound connection with anyone who preaches from the pulpit. Yet these are our self-righteous modern 'shamans-healers' modeling very much their 'allopathic enemies'! If you don't see it as I see it . . .next stop, entheogen vaccines?!

    In this particular case, with 'wicca' types it makes me understand why past ancestors may have chose to drown some of them rather than listen to their priest-like pomposity!

    P.S Sorry, meant to include this link, and the seed that Alex should interview Michael Pollan on his latest entheogen-based book! :)
    https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/09/09/twenty-one-thoughts-on-psychedelics/#comments
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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  12. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    There's a woman I vaguely know who did a weekend course and set herself up doing soul retrievals???!!!??? :) Not that I'm tarring every neo-shaman with the same brush, of course.

    Anyway, I think the Western European shamanic ancestral line was finally killed off about 100 years ago by modernity. It still survives in some form in a few pockets of Southern Europe, apparently.

    Cunning Folk is the term historian's use to describe these western shamanic healers / folk magicians of old..... otherwise, they have different names in different locales - hen-wife is a Scottish Traveller (Gypsy) term I came across recently.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunning_Folk_and_Familiar_Spirits
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunning_folk_in_Britain
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunning_folk

    So, it's tricky for us gringos interested in such topics..... other culture's are our only way into a living tradition.

    I'll second Michael Pollen for the show. Lordy, who's next with the psychedelics? Wendell Berry? :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  13. Alex

    Alex New

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    yeah, kinda annoying! seems to be stopping in the middle

    nice... but the road is fraught with potholes, eh? I keep wanting to do a show on:
    Embrace of the Serpent (2015) - IMDb

    the shaman didn't do so great in this story :)



    I invited... he was coming on and then backed out. I think my strategy is starting to work :)
     
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  14. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    hmmm . . . do we need to all become cheerleading sock puppets so that when potential guests check the forum they see how fun and cuddly we are?! And that we buy lots of books? hehe
     
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  15. KindaGamey

    KindaGamey Member

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    Maybe we could have an outward facing forum just for that purpose and then we can post the real breakdown on the inside.
     
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