Grant Cameron – Classified documents suggest UFO/consciousness link |324|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Aug 11, 2016.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Grant Cameron – Classified documents suggest UFO/consciousness link |324|
    by Alex Tsakiris | Aug 11 | Others, Uncategorized

    UFO researcher Grant Cameron has uncovered 100s of previously classified UFO documents pointing toward a UFO/consciousness link.
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    photo by: Skeptiko
    Researcher and author Grant Cameron encourages the UFO community to focus on consciousness science. He also exposing the US government’s longtime knowledge of, and ongoing interest in, consciousnesses phenomena related to UFO contact:

    Grant Cameron: We discovered this document that is declassified in 1978. This I believe is the most significant document in the whole UFO field because there’s absolutely no doubt that this document is legitimate. It’s in the archives in Ottawa in the department of transport files. There are draft copies in Wilbur Smith’s files–the guy who wrote the document… this document says, we’ve talked to American officials and they have told us the following items: flying saucers exist. It’s a highly classified subject in the United States, rated two points higher than the hydrogen bomb… the next line in the document that says we were also told by American officials that other things might be associated with the flying saucers such as “mental phenomena.”

    The key part to that is now we know that aliens are telepathic. You have contactees, experiencers, abductees, etc. All these people are talking about aliens being telepathic. But in 1950 the first abductees would not be known until Betty and Barney Hill’s book came out in the 1960s. So the question is, how did the Americans know to tell the Canadians in this Top Secret memo that mental phenomena was part of the phenomenon?
     
  2. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions at the end of the podcast:

    1. Do you believe in UFOs -- are you convinced they actually exist?

    2. What do you think about the UFO/ET-consciousness connection?

    [Is there just consciousness that contains everything, including ETs, NDEs, Shamanic experiences, etc., or is there more order to this consciousness thing that would make that kind of statement incomplete and not a particularly useful way of thinking about what's going on?]
     
  3. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    This was a very dense show. I'm going to have to listen to it again before making a response.
     
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  4. Alex

    Alex New

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    you captured that second one perfectly. thx.
     
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  5. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Wow - what a blockbuster! That was incredibly interesting, and covered most of what Skeptiko is all about, plus some politics! I am listening to this in sections, and I am certain to listen again, so I'll just extend this response over time.

    1) Alex, Grant was a great interviewee! I just wonder if it might have been better to split this over two sessions. If my other comments seem a bit critical, that isn't my intention - this guy has done a ton of research, and s definitely worth listening to!

    2) Grant seems very taken with this left brain vs right brain way of looking at things but whatever the truth of that, the functioning brain vs non-functioning brain situation found in most NDE's seems a sharper contrast. Also, I seem to remember the experiment on levels of brain activity in people given psilocybin didn't seem to single out the left brain. Also, it would seem that very occasionally people have one brain hemisphere removed - and it doesn't make much difference - particularly if done at a young age:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispherectomy

    3) Grant's view of politics seems curious. All the politicians are good because they always think they are doing things for the best, even though they are tricking people to achieve it!

    3) To answer Michael's second question, since it would seem that the consciousness question is acknowledged in the papers Grant has seen, and his various contacts, and this seems to be acknowledged in "Super Natural", I guess we are looking at something to do with the bigger reality, and not beings that have flow here across light-years. Grant seemed to be heading that way himself. I also wonder if the physical theories that give us a cosmos of huge distances and time periods, might look quite different from a larger reality - so the picture might be more complex.

    David
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
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  6. Ian

    Ian New

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    The only thing I found surprising about this interview was when he said that the Clintons are "very spiritual people". Aliens in spaceships I can do, but that?
     
  7. iPsoFacTo

    iPsoFacTo New

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    I listen to these things (audio shows) when I go to bed so I'm making this judgement on only about the first 20-30 minutes in. Cameron talked so fast I thought I accidentally pressed the speed up button on the vlc player. Then I thought I wasn't listening to a Skeptico interview but mistakenly some George Snoory guest on Coast to Coast.

    I'll have to listen to the rest during the day to find out if this fellow says anything of substance besides.... "I, I, I, I was talking to this guy and he said he saw this thing and I, I, I, I, was so blown away by that 'cause this other guy I know say a light too and that thing was incredible so I got so down on myself about who knew, so when I got to the president of the united states he's so powerful but when I went to the publishers but not to the doctors and not to the nurses... this person works in the department of transportation and we know the document is real because there's a photocopy of it but he knows this fella, Dr. Wilbur, who went to meeting in the united states energy department..."

    :eek::D
     
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  8. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    Good podcast. I'm glad folks like Cameron are out there beating the bushes. There is certainly value in that.

    There is an overarching problem with "all this" and Alex hit on it quite well during his one rant. We can roll everything into a semi-coherent narrative including shamanism, psychedelics, OBE reports, UFO, mediumship, forteana, channelled materials, "spirituality", reincarnation studies, dream work, parasychology science, after death communications, and NDE studies (forgive me if I forgot anyone) and we can weave all that into a fairly cohesive contemporary mythology--a narrative. And that narrative ends up being pretty comforting. (I won't spin the whole yarn. You should know the story by now.) But the problem is, even if all the arrows point to GO, the reality of things may be quite different.

    This is the one real take away for me from the Kripal/Streiber "collaboration"--that we need to separate the facts of the events, or what happened, from what it really means. As soon as we start assigning meaning, or saying we "know" how the greater reality operates, then our vision becomes occluded and we are apt to miss some other information because it doesn't fit within our idea of how things are.

    Cameron clearly suffers from several blind spots with his insistence on the power of the "left brain". He also shows his hand when he makes comments about how when you die you "know everything". Or that there is some spiritual hierarchy where you pass through levels until finally you are existing as one with the universe. These are non-sensical beliefs by someone who is trying to figure it out and has started compartmentalizing data into hardened conceptions of reality.

    The fact is--we simply can't know. We can make an everest of narratives. And those narratives can be valuable and also be true. But I doubt they are going to tell us much about the true nature of reality, or about whether or not there is ultimately any meaning to existance.

    Let's say for example that in the near future we make contact with the other. And finally, as previously physical earth bound humans, we are shown the "technology" or more likely the method of conscious awareness to be able to reliably traverse the space time fabric. We can test it by reexperiencing some time we spent in the third grade, or a dream we had two years prior, or some other "dimension" peopled with other conscious awarenesses. Those simply become part of a wider narrative. We have a new tool to experience reality. I still don't think this would tell us anything siginificant about meaning. Does anything really mean anything? Or is is all just something that happens?

    But a really good discussion. Alex and Grant brought a lot of wily cords into something resembling a string. And that is interesting.

    Thanks.
     
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  9. iPsoFacTo

    iPsoFacTo New

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    That's word I was looking for.... rant. Inco/semico-herent rant. ;;/?:D


    Yeah... whether or not any of all this stuff is true and as much as the parts of me that wants these things to be true, it's basically fun to listen if just for the storytelling aspect
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  10. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    I'm talking about the part that Alex himself tagged as a rant.
    That's not what I'm saying at all. Anyone who has spent significant time studying this stuff knows quite well that many of the narratives are "true" (the list above, not specifically UFOs), in that they really happened. I'm not talking about flights of fancy or the imagination. I'm talking about the unfathomable depth of the strangeness--the incomprehensible array of mystery that surrounds this existence.
     
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  11. iPsoFacTo

    iPsoFacTo New

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    Ok, sorry... that's how I interpreted it. :)

    Oh, I believe in this whole weirdness-para-hidden-reality stew of existence. I'm just saying that even if it's all pure baloney, listening to people talk about stuff is storytelling and something we humans enjoy
     
  12. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx. reassuring. I think there are some very important revelations there.

    re breaking it up... tough call... some like parts some don't.



    Interesting point. yeah, it seems to be about scale both horizontal (i.e. material world) and vertical (i.e. consciousness realms)
     
  13. Alex

    Alex New

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    nice. thx. re Kripal/Streiber... I see some pretty big blind spots there as well. I mean, I just don't the sense that Jeff has fully processed Grant's data point -- the US gov has known about the ET/consciousness thing for 60 years!!! can you imagine what they've done?

    So, while I really like Kripal and am blown away by all he's contributed, I don't get the sense he's factored the deep state angle into the equation. I guess I oughta ask him for another interview :)
     
  14. Alex

    Alex New

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  15. Alex

    Alex New

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  16. north

    north Member

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    Gordon White has a blog post that relates somewhat to some areas of this interview:
    http://runesoup.com/2016/08/stranger-jacques/
    Is his blog post, he quotes some Vallee:
     
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  17. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Like David, I thought this was a terrific show and may well contribute more as the thread progresses. I'd like to congratulate Alex for striking a difficult balance between keeping Cameron on track -- explaining things that doubtless seemed like inside baseball to people like me -- and at the same time allowing him to have his say in his rapid and breathless way. I've listened again to the second half on the relationship of consciousness to aliens and possibly allied phenomena again and can start to address Alex's questions:

    1. Do you believe in UFOs -- are you convinced they actually exist?


    I believe that people are seeing/experiencing something. Whether that's actual aliens and their spacecraft or something in the collective consciousness is another issue. If there's a big reveal backed up by actual photographic evidence and who knows, even alien artefacts, then I suppose that will prove that some alien manifestations are as real as we are, insofar as we can think of our bodies as real at all. It wouldn't disprove, I don't suppose, that there aren't also psychological manifestations of something less tangible.

    2. What do you think about the UFO/ET-consciousness connection?


    If everything is inside consciousness, then IMO one can't have it both ways and start talking about left/right brain activity, etc. to prove it. There's doubtless a correlation between what we think of as the material and consciousness, so that, for example, we can perceive brains, but they would merely be part of how consciousness presents itself to perception. However, I don't think we can turn around and say that brains cause consciousness so much as reflect consciousness.

    Then again, if consciousness is primal, can we start talking in terms of order, of connections between various kinds of ufo/paranormal phenomena? Does a deathbed appearance of a deceased relative mean that the relative actually pays a visit, or that the apparition is something entirely local to the consciousness of the dying person? Does the hierarchy exist in fact, or is it local to the experiencer? The fact that many people report the same kind of experience doesn't necessarily mean they're experiencing the same unified whole. It could be just a result of similar hierarchical organisation within different people's consciousnesses. That wouldn't in my view conflict with occasional verifiable reports (shoes seen on a ledge outside the operating room, accurate descriptions of operating instruments etc.).

    As Cameron intimated, we hear of near death experiences only from people who survive. They report their experiences from that perspective: they could hardly do anything else. After actual death, we have no way of knowing what they experience. Are they off in some realm where they have relationships with other souls, planning with their soul group what comes next? Is that just how it's described? More questions than answers, I'm afraid.
     
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  18. Judith

    Judith New

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    When we moved to a small rural town in SW New Mexico, we bought our house from a couple who grew up in Roswell. She told the story of how, when she was a teenager, she and a group of kids drove a truck down into one of the more hilly areas outside of Roswell. When going down into a draw, they encountered a craft, and decided to shoot at it. It disappeared. When I first heard the story, I had a lot of doubts, but the woman seemed sane in all other ways, so I let it slide. A couple of years later, I met another woman who had a similar encounter. It has been over 25 years since we moved here, and I have heard a number of stories about UFO sightings. The most recent was a few months ago, when two residents here (they live a couple of blocks from eachother and didn't know they were watching the same thing until they exchanged information the next day) watched a bright lighted disc-shaped object go up and down the canyon here..and then disappear. One of the these people also described a red lite separating from the white lite. In another incident a few years ago, two people witnessed a bright white lite swooping down over their ranch, and watched a red lite separate from it for a time. I have never seen a UFO, but I HAVE had several OBE's, and have always believed that the phenomena (UFO's and altered states of consciousness) were related. I agree with Grant Cameron on this.
     
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  19. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I'm about half way through "Super Normal", and I have to say, he seems a bit too keen on finessing his exact description of the phenomena, rather than proposing some kind of model of what they are. I mean, presumably the US UFO group have some more concrete description for what they think they are dealing with!

    It is exciting that they would seem to acknowledge a consciousness dimension of some sort.

    David
     
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  20. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    It is interesting how there seems to be a de-facto concept of consciousness developing - mentioned again in this podcast.

    1) Consciousness is not generated in the brain, which only acts to focus it on physical reality.

    2) When people die, they experience a life review, and then join with others to plan future lives. Their awareness of other lives and the in-between bits is restored once they are 'dead'.

    3) There is some sense in which all consciousness is really one, and that love is a/the dominant force. I tend to imagine this rather like a group of friends that participate in a VR game in which they fight each other to the 'death', and then go for a beer!

    4) There are a number of phenomena that demonstrate consciousness out of the box (i.e. brain) one way or another - NDE's, Savantism, Mediumship, psychedelics, shamanism, lucid dreams, UFO's etc. (This also came up in the podcast at one point).

    All this seems to be crystallising round a fairly definite theory - precisely the opposite of what sceptics sometimes say - that paranormal phenomena are just an arbitrary collection of statistical quirks!

    David
     
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