Grant Cameron, No Such Thing As Evil ET? |449|

I thought that Grant Cameron had some interesting perspectives and I don't have too much disagreement with what he said. I just think that he is a poor listener and communicator. It seems he may be letting his ego get the best of him. If one believes in the nondual concept that everything is consciousness, then wouldn't developing the skill of listening to and understanding others be an important thing to learn? How else can you communicate with people and have a positive influence on them? It should have been very easy for Mr Cameron to understand what Alex was saying and respond to it in an intelligent manner, because they really don't have much disagreement. I think that intellect combined with some type of personal spiritual practice of self-reflection yields the best results.
I definitely agree w/ you, Ben. I thought that a brief stop w/ some deep, slow breathing during the interview would have helped them both.
 
I thought that Grant Cameron had some interesting perspectives and I don't have too much disagreement with what he said. I just think that he is a poor listener and communicator. It seems he may be letting his ego get the best of him. If one believes in the nondual concept that everything is consciousness, then wouldn't developing the skill of listening to and understanding others be an important thing to learn? How else can you communicate with people and have a positive influence on them? It should have been very easy for Mr Cameron to understand what Alex was saying and respond to it in an intelligent manner, because they really don't have much disagreement. I think that intellect combined with some type of personal spiritual practice of self-reflection yields the best results.
Part of the problem may be that they already know eachother: might have gone better if they didn't. Far as I can tell, Alex seems to believe (he can correct me if I'm wrong) in the literal existence of ETs and other "spiritual" beings, both good and evil. Grant doesn't. I take his "contact modalities" to refer to ETs, fairies, demons, etc; they are how various phenomena appear to the senses of different perceivers.

Quite possibly, both would agree that there's something that is perceived, but its interpretation is different and quite probably influenced by enculturation. Hence, for example, the differences between NDEs as experienced by Westerners (Christian influences) and Easterners (influences from Buddhism, Hinduism, and so on), though the underlying structure may be pretty similar. Also, of course, people these days often perceive ETs (good and bad) whereas in the past they more likely perceived angels and demons.

Do such entities literally exist? Speaking purely personally, I tend to think they don't. Which isn't necessarily to say that "nuts and bolts" manifestations are impossible: the higher selves/collective (un)consciousness of human beings may be capable of creating them. If all there is is consciousness, then all seemingly concrete things would in any case actually be mental.

As an idealist, I tend to lean more towards Grant's views, though he does tend to slip in and out of literalism; one of the unfortunate consequences of language as a tool of communication is that it is predicated on perception, and perception tells us things are literally concrete -- so inevitably, however careful we might try to be, we're likely to get our knickers in a twist. Add to that the familiarity between the two and the ease with which they can slip into confrontational dialogue, and it doesn't really surprise me that we got what we got.
 
some American astronauts were told that divulging stories about the artificial structures they saw on the Moon would cost them dearly
Do you have a link about that?
I'd like to hear more as well...what makes so much of the openness to previously rejected interior experiences exciting is that we now have a much broader way to verify or reject what some people divulge. For instance, several writers about precognitive dreaming & clairvoyance have pointed out that this is a way for the Supreme Being to express his/her/its love & caring nature.
Wow - I don't know about that, wouldn't a loving being warn enough people that the disaster would not take place?

My feeling is that precognitive dreams are suggestive of the idea that the whole time line is visible from 'out there' and some of that information leaks down to us. The separation certainly seems porous.

David
 
As an idealist, I tend to lean more towards Grant's views
At rock bottom I think I am an Idealist too, but as I have said before, I think that is a theory that needs to be deployed after we have explored reality much further. If we deploy it now, it has the effect of just dumping all phenomena into one basket!

For example, IMHO the best explanation of MPD is that some people's minds are susceptible to connecting to more than one spirit - think of an analog radio tuned between channels. Thinking about that situation using pure Idealism seems to make it very cloudy.

David
 
At rock bottom I think I am an Idealist too, but as I have said before, I think that is a theory that needs to be deployed after we have explored reality much further. If we deploy it now, it has the effect of just dumping all phenomena into one basket!

For example, IMHO the best explanation of MPD is that some people's minds are susceptible to connecting to more than one spirit - think of an analog radio tuned between channels. Thinking about that situation using pure Idealism seems to make it very cloudy.

David
Are you more interested in knowledge for the sake of knowledge or to guide your everyday life?
 
At rock bottom I think I am an Idealist too, but as I have said before, I think that is a theory that needs to be deployed after we have explored reality much further. If we deploy it now, it has the effect of just dumping all phenomena into one basket!

For example, IMHO the best explanation of MPD is that some people's minds are susceptible to connecting to more than one spirit - think of an analog radio tuned between channels. Thinking about that situation using pure Idealism seems to make it very cloudy.

David
Isn’t there some serious debate as to whether or not MPD is a real thing? Serious question. That’s the impression I’ve been under.
 
Continuation -

I'm going to take us through some of the few claims made in the methodology section of the first book of michael newton. page 3.



People in hypnosis do hallucinate, and do experience hypnagogic imagery if they are taken deeply enough, though these are usually if not always directed by the practicioner. The stanford susceptibility scale which tests how hypnotisable someone is and is one of the main tools of research hypnotists relies on the ability to induce various hallucinations in the subject such as the buzzing of a nonexistent mosquito, hallucinated tastes, and dreams on pages 26, 28 and 32 (1.)

Sleep is a process that does include theta waves in NREM 1 and NREM2 (2.) Despite these errors, these are probably irrelevant as to the veracity of the material itself. There are alternate theories available which encompass the dream state as being the state of the soul, which im sure most readers here are familier with.

As a correction to my previous post, this first book relies only on the letter S for the client, and I will assume here that the S stands for subject, and does not denote a specific person which could therefore alleviate my prior objections about a seemingly small case size. -leafing through the second book I see this is indeed the case, and 67 seperate cases are presented, haha its somewhat embarrassing to be so wrong about my previous objections - its a shame my memory is so faulty, but at least I managed to correct myself.

1. https://leevonk.com/information/Hypnosis/Stanford Hypnotic Susceptibility Scale.pdf
2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/non-rapid-eye-movement-sleep


Overall I can't say much about how true or false the book is just based on reading through them, far too much of it aligns with other explorers in the OBE community like Jurgen Ziewe, Robert Bruce and Robert Monroe as well as older sources like Emmanuel Swedenborg to be mere coincidence in my opinion. I'm leafing through the third book again now and there are 37 additional hypnotists trained in the methodologies of Michael Newton which report very similar cases as the original book, so this may address my due diligence claim however I would still like to see full transcripts, see it done myself and would like more veridical information such as verifiable information regarding peoples past lives.
Are you saying that Michael Newtons books align with the reported experiences of key OBE explorers? If so, That’s Not my impression at all. I could draw several parallels I suppose, like the use of seemingly physical energy bodies, like the ones we have now, As use for a avatars. along with other similarities. But the map and purposes and structure of these other realms seems very rigid and systematic in Newton’s work. As if he has it ALL figured out. And it, to me, it doesn’t line up well with Jurgens experiences and what guys like that say about the structure and function of the afterworlds. Newton has the whole thing drawn out perfectly as if everybody always does the same thing, And that we all follow this cosmic order of things. I think it seems clear that really isn’t so ordered and is highly individual.
 
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Do you have a link about that?

Wow - I don't know about that, wouldn't a loving being warn enough people that the disaster would not take place?

My feeling is that precognitive dreams are suggestive of the idea that the whole time line is visible from 'out there' and some of that information leaks down to us. The separation certainly seems porous.

David
David, I'm sorry, but I don't have a link about warning astronauts to keep quiet, but I'll see what I can dig up. I've also read some stuff that there are similar unexplained things that have been photographed on Mars's surface. Of course, like many of us, I was fascinated by the idea of "ancient astronauts" many years ago, & came across similar ideas in Le Hongzhi's books. He says the moon is an artificial satellite & that man has already explored all the planets of our solar system. This obviously means that man has been around an extremely long time, but b/c of the bad types of some of the people that incarnate on Earth, human civilization has been obliterated 80 some-odd times, w/ a few hardy souls surviving each time to start it all over again. Le takes the view that entities that incarnate have "fallen from a higher existence" for one reason or another or else they wouldn't be here; many are reincarnated human beings, but some are from the infinite number of other dimensions in the universe. There are others, like Dr. Kenneth Ring, that believe the opposite & say that chances for a human, mortal existence is a highly desired thing & in great demand.
What I have settled on to some extent is that a mortal, sensual life is a wonderful gift that should be appreciated, but it has some severe risks, like getting attached to impermanent things, creating bad karmic relationships, etc. Edgar Cayce claims this all got started an incredibly long time ago when spirits started inhabiting animal & human bodies to enjoy sensory delights like eating & sex, but eventually forgot their true nature & became trapped.
So, like Le says, entities are "tossed into a maze" & have to find their way out w/ the help of wise, beneficent beings. Part of the maze is finding truly beneficent teachers. Not everyone is warned about disasters or other risky situations b/c of a myriad of reasons, but that some of that information leaks down to us is a good description as any. One of my first really shocking experiences w/ practicing deep relaxation happened on a bus trip back to Texas from Virginia. I hadn't been deeply relaxed for long when I "saw" an image of an orange, souped-up sports car hurling up into the chain-link barrier that separated the freeway lanes & sliding along on it at a steep angle. My eyes flew open & to my extreme shock, the very thing I had just "seen" was played out the bus's window on my left!!
 
Isn’t there some serious debate as to whether or not MPD is a real thing? Serious question. That’s the impression I’ve been under.
Well it is certainly real in the sense that it messes up people's lives! Isn't that a bit like the argument that consciousness doesn't really exist?

There are also forums where people go to discuss the voices they hear in their heads. My impression is that there are more people who hear voices than we know, because many of them hear helpful voices or they have learned how to control them. Clearly they only get seen by a psychiatrist if they are having problems.

David
 
Kind of an oxymoronic statement, right?
Not exactly, it is something I have discussed before. It seems to me that scientific theories only advance our understanding if they are discovered in the right sequence. For example, if Newton by some revelation had come up with General Relativity rather than NG, it might have been a disaster for science because it would have appeared untestable, impossible to use for calculations, etc. He had to come up with a simplified theory, both of mechanics and gravity in order that people could actually use it and gradually develop really good ways to calculate its consequences.

Dualism is clearly inconsistent at some point, but so are the two big theories of physics - GR and QM (taken together) - scientists have learned to live with that.

I think Idealism falls into the same category - it could explain absolutely anything - such as my computer turning into an orange fish - so you need an approximate theory that extends beyond materialism - say Dualism - and when scientists are a bit more comfortable with that because it actually explained things like NDE's, I could envision maybe two or three more layers of better theories, followed by a general acceptance of Idealism.

By the time mankind adopts Idealism, it will presumably know why computers don't change into orange fishes! I suspect there is a constraint that makes such things utterly unlikely - rather as the insane properties of an electron are tamed in larger and larger particles. Electrons can tunnel anywhere, but that depends on their wavelength which is inversely proportional to a particle's mass - so cricket balls can in theory also tunnel through walls, but the probability is absurdly low.

David
 
Are you saying that Michael Newtons books align with the reported experiences of key OBE explorers? If so, That’s Not my impression at all.
Right - the sheer simplicity of the LBL period seems suspicious and certainly does not gel with what others report. Nor, I think does it gel with the slightly more way out NDE's - such as that encountered by Eban Alexander's.

David
 
Right - the sheer simplicity of the LBL period seems suspicious and certainly does not gel with what others report. Nor, I think does it gel with the slightly more way out NDE's - such as that encountered by Eban Alexander's.

David
What if all these experiences are correct, in their interpretation? Tom Campbell has stated that whatever program were in, is interested in us becoming love and it will do whatever it can to make that happen. Maybe the experiences in LBL are rigid bc it's helpful for those experiencing it. Also, it's hard to compare Newton's work and others bc his was done while people were under hypnosis and between lives. NDEs never go that far, it seems. They usually just have this "short" experience and a lot of times, seem to be given a choice about whether to return(I've always wondered if they really have a choice). I think NDEs are more about our experience on earth and are geared towards the understanding that we're more than our body. They're not meant to give a specific account of how the "afterlife" functions.
 
What if all these experiences are correct, in their interpretation? Tom Campbell has stated that whatever program were in, is interested in us becoming love and it will do whatever it can to make that happen. Maybe the experiences in LBL are rigid bc it's helpful for those experiencing it. Also, it's hard to compare Newton's work and others bc his was done while people were under hypnosis and between lives. NDEs never go that far, it seems. They usually just have this "short" experience and a lot of times, seem to be given a choice about whether to return(I've always wondered if they really have a choice). I think NDEs are more about our experience on earth and are geared towards the understanding that we're more than our body. They're not meant to give a specific account of how the "afterlife" functions.
This probably the 4th time I’ve written this on this forum, so I fear that I may sound like a broken record, but it’s pertinent.

I would generally agree that NDEs aren’t necessarily afterlife state accounts insomuch as I think that they are profound transcendental experiences. I think, perhaps, in a similar way to DMT trips etc. While I have never had an NDE or taken DMT, I would say that, despite what I’ve just said, an NDE is probably generally more profound, and does tend to more frequently involve dead friends and relatives etc.

I like the work of OBE explorers because their experiences are repeated frequently and the more seasoned researchers are able to record their experiences and learn from them as they grow. An NDEr is thrown into a bizarre experience with no context and are often confused.

Guys like Jurgen and Cyrus Kirkpatrick etc (they have done talks together on YouTube and I listen to them converse on Facebook all the time as I’m Fbook friends with them both) claim that they frequently visit dead relatives during their experiences. Their experiences do line up generally fairly well with reports from reknowned mediums like Suzanne Giessman and Suzanne Wilson etc, and with what afterlife researchers like Roberta Grimes, Dr Craig Hogan, and victor and Wendy Zammit, and with a lot of the channeled information of the past 2 centuries (Leslie Flint etc).

As far as I can tell, there are some similarities between what MN and these people tell us. But there’s a lot of stark contrast as well. What the aforementioned group tells us (and perhaps what NDEs maybe tell us) is that we are part of a reality that is multidimensional and is full of physical and non-physical realms which we may partake in, for whatever purposes. Some might go to some, and some might go to others. What the researchers etc tend to tell us is that (seemingly) most of us go to an environment much like Earth after we die. The old mediums and old channeled info refer to this place as “the summerland.” Cyrus and Jurgen refer to it as “astral earth.” It’s where they meet their dead relatives who are seemingly living lives much like we are now. It’s not hard to believe really given the the only realm we are currently aware of is this physical Earth. That we might do something similar after death isn’t really that weird. At least with this theory we are not postulating something alien which we have no experience of. It is claimed there that the “vibratory frequency” there is higher. Which is to say, that it’s a nicer place. But it isn’t perfect. The environment is also more thought responsive.

People do often come back to this Earth for another go, as Michael Newton claims. This is all claimed by these other researchers and experiencers as well. Jurgen has claimed that he meets up with his father in this “astral realm” but that his father has ALSO reincarnated in Russia. He claimed to see him there as a young boy (currently) in Russia. In this sense he says that we are complex multi-dimensional beings. William Buhlman (OBE guru) is adamant about this as well, claiming that we do multiple things at once, and that we are Currently partaking in other realities which our local selves are not aware of. But he’s also adamant (as are the others) that potential afterlife states are infinite.

Michael Newtons claims are far to simplistic. And he’s the only one I’ve encountered who states that there is this strict system in place where we die, we take some spiritual shower in an energy field, We meet up with our soul groups and discuss our previous lives, we plan our next incarnation on Earth with our souls group and decide what roles we are going to take and we meet with this council of elders etc etc etc. Forgive me if any of that is inaccurate, It’s been years since I’ve read his books. But I really don’t think things are so ordered and neat and consistent. Reality is far different than That. Although I think that the temptation to claim that you have the afterlife all mapped out is great.

I don’t want to call him a fraud. But maybe there was some groupthink going on with his sessions which came together psychically? We also know that our minds can affect the minds of others. We also know that when scientists are doing experiments that if they want a certain result, they are far more likely to get that result during their experiments. I really doubt that every LBL session went down the exact same way as he states. I’d feel better about it if I had all the transcripts and could listen to many of the people he hypnotized tell their stories. I’m much more inclined to think that there was more variability in his sessions than he claimed. But it would be easy to trivialize and explain those away if they didn’t fit your narrative. But, admittedly, that’s just speculation on my part.

At any rate, I prefer the direct experiences of men and women who are meticulous in their recording and discernment of their experiences over many years, over one single sit down session with MN.

Maybe I’m wrong about some of this and there are more similarities than I’m currently stating between MN and these researchers and experiencers. But, at any rate, I know the differences in many areas are great.

This last bit might sound too convenient to be true, relative to this current conversation, but it is true. Cyrus traveled to Europe to spend some time with Jurgen and to interview him and compare notes on their experiences. He was giving a virtual tour of Jurgens house on this YouTube video, including his library. I saw MN books on his shelf. I commented on the Afterlife Topics and Metaphysics page, which Cyrus runs and where he was also posting this video. I commented, I’d like to hear Jurgens opinion on MN’s work and his books. Jurgen (Who is very active on the page) actually responded and said that it “did not resonate with him.”

I don’t believe that Jurgen is an unimpeachable bastion of knowledge on these topics. But I place him on a notch higher than almost anybody else I know of. But, certainly he’s a flawless person with flawless ideas and beliefs as well, to be fair
 
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What if all these experiences are correct, in their interpretation? Tom Campbell has stated that whatever program were in, is interested in us becoming love and it will do whatever it can to make that happen.
Well first I think it is vital to keep an open mind.

Love does seem to be an important theme, however, it is hard to imagine that some of the spirit entities that people encounter are full of love - so there is more to this story.
Maybe the experiences in LBL are rigid bc it's helpful for those experiencing it.
Well if someone is going to tidy up the truth I'd really rather they tell me at the outset :)
Also, it's hard to compare Newton's work and others bc his was done while people were under hypnosis and between lives. NDEs never go that far, it seems. They usually just have this "short" experience and a lot of times, seem to be given a choice about whether to return(I've always wondered if they really have a choice).
Well NDE's don't probe far, but mediums certainly do.
I think NDEs are more about our experience on earth and are geared towards the understanding that we're more than our body. They're not meant to give a specific account of how the "afterlife" functions.
Well again I have an open mind - it is awfully easy to interpret everything to fit a pet theory - materialist scientists do it all the time when they stray into certain subjects - they will even claim that consciousness doesn't exist or that it is "no big deal". I tend to baulk if I think anything is being twisted to fit a theory, rather than the theory being adjusted or replaced to fit the facts.

David
 

Alex

Administrator
Are we so sophisticated and advanced that we can now declare that every other human culture has been mistaken and there's no such thing as evil?
good point. then again, a lot of cultures have believed in ultimate non-duality beyond the day-to-day duality.
 
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