He thought his beliefs about global warming were based on science. Science proved him wrong |310|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Mar 29, 2016.

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  1. Roberta

    Roberta Member

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    It's pretty clear that this cause is a religion for both sides, neither side is objective and both sides have insulted the other. In fact I have been insulted personally for being pro-AGW and you didn't do anything about it. I think you are a nice guy but I think you need to be extremely aware of your bias when moderating on this topic!
     
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  2. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Yes, except that - speaking personally - I am passionate that people are not fed hogwash by a science establishment that has become obsessed with power and control, rather than truth.

    David
     
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  3. Diogenes

    Diogenes Guest

    It is pointless trying to have a sensible discussion here when the moderation is so biassed.

    I understand PTEHA has now been banned permanently.

    I have asked for my own account to be closed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2016
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  4. Steve

    Steve Member

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    I would like to say that PTEHA's treatment here has been nothing short of scandalous. You and Alex should be ashamed of yourselves.

    I know he was contacted by PTEHA, but was ignored. I have experience of this myself when I tried to let him know about the Jurgen Ziewe thread.

    It is so ironic that Enrique seems obsessed with oppressive regimes when Skeptiko exhibits exactly the type of tactics that one would expect from such organisations.

    I am not for anyone being banned, I like to think that there is no one I couldn't contact and be civil with here. No exceptions.

    I don't care if I get banned for this post. As much as I enjoy this forum and many people on it, it has revealed itself to be as biased as any 'skeptics' that Alex has interviewed.

    Disgusted of Milton Keynes. :( :)

    Steve
     
  5. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    Hey, Steve,
    I wonder why you mention me, as if I were an administrator of this forum. From what I know, PTEHA was banned for going on trolling spree, having reported over 100 posts, including those of Alex, not for the content of his interventions. By the way, I'n not obssessed about anything, it's the subject I have been studying for 40 years. It's like saying that a biology professor is "obsessed" with biology.To Insinuate that somebody is "obsessed" with something has despective connotations, so, I don't think you really mean it. :)
    I don't think anybody will ban you on this forum, you are an important part of the gang :D
     
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  6. Steve

    Steve Member

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    This thread is not accessible from the main page of the forum. Podcast 310 isn't there.
     
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  7. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    What has happened is that the thread is no longer 'pinned' in place as a sticky, The first several threads have a little red pin icon. Further down the page (and on subsequent pages) are all the ordinary unpinned threads, in order of most recent posting,
     
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  8. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Hi Enrique

    I am intrigued how you know what PTEHA was banned for. Could it be because you are pally with the moderator? ;)

    It's my opinion that you seem to be obsessed by certain things, maybe I'm wrong, I'm not an expert on very much. But that's ok being obsessed, and it's ok with me having an opinion that you disagree with. When we can all learn not to get upset we'll be getting somewhere. I'm just as likely to get carried away, being Scots, it is part of my
    curriculum for this life, I'm trying hard. :)

    If anyone should be asked to calm it down it should be you. ;) As I've said I wouldn't be banning anyone, but you do have a way of firing people up. I don't think I'm known as a particularly fiery type guy, but I got wound up by you in another thread. Can you accept that may be true? Some examples of how you've responded:

    I was once given a warning and my post was removed by responding to one of your posts as a Scotsman should. (By AP;))

    I genuinely think these responses are funny, even if I wouldn't encourage them;)

    Yet Pteha gets a week long ban for a first offence for saying something 'offensive' about IQs ? No wonder he went off on one! :eek::)

    I'm not having a go at you, I'm having a go at the moderators.

    The whole point of this is that if you're going to ban people who you 'dislike' or vehemently disagree with, but who argue their case with as much passion as possible but following all the rules then the forum is just another example of the dogma that Alex denounces.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
  9. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    1) No, I'm not "pally" with the administrators
    2) You don't realize is that what you are doing is potently unfair: you take exerts of what I say RESPONDING to insulting comments directed to me without any provocation. Like you cut off the part of the sentence where it says "I was trying to be friendly with you, apparently, it didn't work. " Anybody who is curious can follow the thread and see it for themselves.
    3) Yes, people very often tend to respond in a hostile manner to strong opinions that don't conform with their worldview. I am in a debate to argue vigorously, not to make friends, although I try to be friendly, all the way up to the first ad hominem thrown at me, then, it's free for all.
    And no, strong views are not obsessions, if you ca provide data and coherent arguments to support them. You yourself have strong views, I wouldn't call them obsessions.
    I don't mind people having the views that are diametrically opposing to mine, as long as they are able to abstain from direct ad hominems. I have different views from yours, but I know you are a noble and kind person, so, in my book, I can talk to you about anything, without fear of losing mutual respect. Remember, virtual interactions are essentially unnatural, there is no direct human communication involved, so, we don't se a human behind the post, so we tend to attack the idea, so much the person behind it. If we argued, say, in a pub, meaning, in a natural human environment, it would be easier to see a real human behind the idea, interact with him, even buy him a round or two.... :D The way we all do in real life. (Like, if you ever drag your ass to Madrid, I'll buy you a pint or three :D ) We all have friends who don't think like us, and we still love them, of course. Internet changed all these natural dynamics of human interactions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  10. Roberta

    Roberta Member

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    What you believe is hogwash, like I said on this subject it's difficult for you I moderate when you are clearly so skeptical. Your response to me confirms you don't even want to accept you have bias and that it might be an issue. Has Phetha actually been banned? If that's the case I think an explanation of why he has should be said, and it needs explaining why Enrique hasn't as the conversation was two way. If you look at some of the things he's said they're pretty out of order.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Member

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    So how do you know? Are you pally with a pal of the moderator? Is this known to everyone, it's unlikely that Pteha kept you up to date on the proceedings.


    Yes, that's true. But I was only highlighting the worst type of example, I'm afraid that you won. :) My guess is that anyone on the pro AGW side making such insults would have been kicked out as quick as a moderator could fire up their computer. Laird is hardly someone who would be likely to get fired up. He simply refused to agree.

    Diogenes was accused of trolling by Michael. Seriously ?

    Pteha was arguing more or less alone against a bunch of people who were posting, and if Rupert is right, against a wall of opponents that made up a wall of psychic negativity! :) It was clear that to me, that he and you were engaging in a policy of M.A.D - and as a Russian I know that you must recognise the acronym. :eek:

    I would buy you a Smirnoff vodka or three also. In fact I've got a brother in law who lives just outside Madrid (Alcala) who's a lawyer, so I do occasionally get to visit. I might take you up on that offer sometime. Although I don't really drink ;;/?

    (Smirnoff's probably made in China or Korea nowadays)
     
  12. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    Alcala de Henares??? NO f..... way... My wife is from Alcala. :D :D :D I don't drink myself, so, alcohol free beer is it is. BTW, I'm a Spaniard, just was born in the USSR, my parents were kidnapped by Stalins' soldiers during the Civil War. Weird story...Anyway, I don't think that political discussions on this forum are very productive: we all hold different views, and some of us feel very strong about them. I hate arguing with people I like. It's better to concentrate on what unites us here. Some of us have stuck with this forum for years, it would be a shame to hold animosities toward each other.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Member

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    The shame is that I'm certain PTEHA would agree with you/me.

    I love to hear stories about people's journeys these days. It's what makes living real. It's what connects us, all the negative stuff gets washed away.
     
  14. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    At first, I felt a little bad that PTEHA got banned as I expected maybe a verbal correction first, but when he came back it was... PTEHA unleashed! I think he is/was a professional troll doing this either for money or out of some sort of narcissistic messiah complex. I think he confirmed that himself:

    In a previous post (don't have time to go find it now) he also said that he posted here not to convince anyone participating, but for those who read this thread and don't comment - in other words the lurkers or search results.

    There are two ways to "win" on an internet forum: engage in rational discourse in a polite respectful humble manner, or the second option is create drama, stir emotions, get people talking about yourself or exchanging insults instead of talking about the issues, dominate the thread with many many long posts, frame-shift your way out of actual point by point debates, ad hominem attack, ridicule, associate opposition with super-villains (i.e. Hitler) appeal to popularity by creating the perception of consensus, appeal to authority, post lots of links without any exposition on them, divide forum members against one another and create dissension and discontent within the forum. PTEHA employed all of the latter tactics.

    If PTEHA really is what he claims - an expert in this field of internet communication with 17 years of experience - then he knows this well. He knows that lurkers outnumber participants 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 and liftetime page views might be in the thousands, and the real value of engaging here from a mass mind control standpoint is to water down search results or derail the thread or get the thread shut down or fill it with so much drama and crap that no one wants to wade through it all to actually engage in the debate. So I would say he really did a fine job of accomplishing his goals here.

    Regarding the comment that I reported, PTEHA is the only forum member I've ever reported for behavior because it seemed obvious to me he was being a troll and the post that I flagged added nothing to the discussion and it suggested that we be locked up for lowering the IQ here. Although I knew he wasn't serious (I hope), the escalating emotional level of his rhetoric along with a fair bit of narcissist non-sense really derailed this thread. I also felt more inclined to flag a suggestion for locking us up since he was defending the author who advocated arrest of deniers and even the death penalty.

    Evidence of Messiah complex and apocalyptic prophesy:

    Not even a lump of coal for me? :D

    which he admits he is not... he is an expert in the field of social media: forums, comment sections, etc.

    I didn't get this info from someone's blog. I just went to the NOAA website and plotted some charts. The satellite data (which he didn't comment on) came from a report by a proponent of AGW/CC - not a denier. Looking at year-to-year vs March-only doesn't change the trends much. Here are plots for the year (April to March) instead of March only. Going by the year actually gave me a negative trend from 1998 to present in America.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The satellite data doesn't show as much warming. It shows that previous IPCC predictions failed to pan out.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    This statement could be a little misleading... "2.57x greater warming trend! oh my gawd!" I mean... if the trends were .000001 to .00001 we could say it's 10x greater! The trends aren't as small as my hyperbolic example, but are they large enough to be concerned about? The graph from NOAA above shows trend of .07 C per decade for the period starting 1880. The graph for 1998 to present shows a trend of .15 C per decade. 0.15/0.07 = 2.14 (not sure how you arrived at 2.57). And the trend for North America was negative. Either way... these are fairly small trends - especially when considering the way the data from land/sea measurements is gathered and processed. The satellite data here doesn't show the same strength of trend.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  15. Steve

    Steve Member

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    No one cares. Argue away. :(
     
  16. Why was PTEHA banned permanently?
     
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  17. Michael2

    Michael2 New

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    Why do you think this is all about winning arguments on an internet forum? This should have been a discussion about Climate Change. There is no winning this. Glaciers are melting, sea levels are rising, there is a very nasty drought here in California. Exactly how the heck do you win against that?

    PTEHA was no troll or trolling.
     
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  18. Diogenes

    Diogenes Guest

    First, I'll explain that I've asked David Bailey twice to cancel my account, and he hasn't done so. In fact, he says he doesn't know how to cancel someone's account, except by banning them. So maybe PTEHA asked to have his account cancelled? I don't think so, though.

    Anyhow, the other side of that coin is that it looks as though the only way to get my account cancelled is to get myself banned.

    So, as a first attempt, I'll hazard a guess that - at bottom - the fact that PTEHA was banned permanently has quite a lot to do with his criticisms of the way the owner of this site went about the interview we're meant to be discussing here, and also the fact that the moderator views one side of the argument as "hogwash" and is passionate to prevent it being communicated. He makes no bones about that. So why wouldn't he want to ban someone who knew what he was talking about, given that that person supported the side of the argument the moderator was keen to suppress?

    Certainly it can't be because of ad hominem attacks, because people on the side of the argument favoured by the moderator are still here, despite having indulged in them. And in fact they are still indulging in them.

    While I'm here, I may as well say that I don't understand what essentially political conspiracy theories have to do with the declared aims of this site. Or why adherence to conspiracy theories should be incorporated in the "party line". Or why the site's supposed principles of critically examining the evidence should be thrown out of the window just because a conspiracy theory is under discussion. Frankly, I think that kind of thing just makes the people concerned look ridiculous, and tends to make the more worthwhile causes associated with the site look ridiculous too.

    Hopefully that will be enough to get me banned, given the current atmosphere here. :D
     
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  19. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    PETHA has indeed been banned. On Saturday night, be reported over 100 posts by various people including two that referred to Alex! It took me considerable time just to process them all. I also had a number of complaints from other members of this forum. PETHA was not banned for his opinions.

    You think people who are against CAGW are deluded or even in the pay of big oil. I guess I have made the comparison with the scientific treatment of ψ enough already, so let me give you another interesting example of the corruption of science. A few weeks ago, a report was released in the UK reducing the safe limits for drinking alcohol. The impression was given that even a small consumption of alcohol incurred some danger, and that cancer was a particularly high profile risk.

    In the newspaper stories about this issue a book title appeared:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-News-...1680791&sr=8-1&keywords=good+news+about+booze

    Despite its title, much of this book is somewhat technical,and it goes through the statistics about the medical effects of alcohol, collected over many years. The book meticulously quotes the research papers on which it is based. On the basis of these statistics, it paints a vastly different picture of the effect of drinking alcohol. People drinking large amounts, are obviously putting themselves at great risk of a variety of medical problems, but in fact those drinking moderately - even those drinking rather more than the old safe drinking limits - actually live longer and suffer less disease than teetotallers, or (obviously) those who veer towards excess.

    The author explains the stark contrast between the experimental facts and what has been told to the public by pointing out that many of those responsible for the final advice had been GP's earlier in their career, and had seen too many people who had become alcoholics.

    However, it is surely reasonable to ask if it is right to feed the public a fantastic distortion of what the science actually says, because someone decided it would be better for them to be fed lies! Furthermore, I would hazard a guess that those who would take notice of the new advice, and maybe stop drinking, would be exactly the ones who would drink moderately and reap the benefits that the evidence shows this confers. It is really worth reading this book and comparing it with the public advice given out in Britain.

    This is an interesting, but probably well meaning bit of scientific deception, but it illustrates the way in which those at the top of large scientific organisations see fit to twist the truth as they see fit. It is also easy to see that after a while scientists may feel locked into a lie because they can't explain what evidence they ever had to justify their original advice.

    Most science is now organised on a very hierarchical basis, and control is exerted on potential mavericks using the peer review system, and the grant system.

    Lot's of people have speculated over the origins of CAGW, I have heard it suggested that it arose out of a drive by the nuclear industry to promote its power stations. Another possibility is that it arose as a way to sell expensive electricity rather than cheap electricity - soak the poor to increase the wealth of big business. It may have been done - at least in part - to deflect the Green movement from things that really mattered.

    I know you think we are just a group of people who know nothing about science, so here is a Nobel Prizewinner in physics espousing similar views:


    http://www.mediatheque.lindau-nobel...ver-global-warming-revisited/laureate-giaever

    Please, please listen to this speech - it is very clear and impressive.

    Martin, Hurmanetar, and others - please save this link - it is the best I have discovered.

    (He also resigned from the American Physical Society because of their championing CAGW without indicating the level of dissent on this subject).

    Freeman Dyson - another revered physicist - has expressed similar views. It is noticeable that both of these men are retired, and thus beyond the reach of the sanctions that can normally be applied to those who step out of line on such issues.

    There seem to be a whole set of scientific issues of this type, where either a mistake was made and subsequently covered up, or a deliberate bias was introduced for one reason or another. Alex didn't come up with his book title for no reason.

    David
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
  20. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Power is all about affecting public perception and belief. The Internet now takes the place of the church and the town square where ideas are exchanged and popular consensus is reached. Popular consensus is the base of support for the exercising of power.

    This has long been known and written about... Ender's Game written in the 80's foresaw the importance of Internet debate in relation to world power with the kid geniuses under pseudonyms "Locke" and "Demosthenes" teaming up to control discourse on the nets leading them to eventually rule the world.

    Perhaps you'd care to comment on the graphs above? What do you think about IPCC climate models failing on the high side to track with measured values? Do you feel that the NOAA land based measured temperature increase of .07 C / decade is real or exaggerated by data processing? Do you feel that we can rely on the accuracy of global temp estimates going all the way back to 1880? If real, do you think it is significant and dangerous or just part of natural fluctuations in the earth's climate?

    That may be but aren't they always growing or receding naturally? I mean we see many glacial valleys and lakes that were filled with ice thousands of years ago. We warmed up quite a bit since then and man obviously didn't cause that warming.

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread the estimated rate is extremely small on the order of a few millimeters per year and the paper that reported this said the accuracy is suspect being measured from tidal measurements and bouys. The land and shore are always shifting so it is really hard to say how much the ocean is actually rising if at all.

    Part of that could be natural climate cycles. Part of that could be due to geoengineering (cloud seeding off the coast) and part of that is certainly due to the fact that the population has exploded since the 70's but no new reservoirs have been built.
     
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