Hellish ndes are not due to interpretation

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by Transcended Multiverse, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. Transcended Multiverse

    Transcended Multiverse Bizarre, Transcended, and Omnipotent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    According to the nde (near death experience) research done by Jeffery Long, he has said that nde experiencers consistently report a God who is truly all loving who does not judge or condemn anyone to hell. But he has pointed out that people who have claimed to have hellish ndes or met Jesus is all based on their own interpretation of what they saw and that it really wasn't Jesus they saw, hell, demons, etc.

    But I don't think that is the case. I really think people have literally saw Jesus and have literally gone to hell. I think they have literally been told that they must obey the Bible and accept Jesus or that they would go to hell. If we consider the idea that ndes are genuine soul separate from body phenomena, then what does this all mean? Some people have these hellish ndes while others have those types of blissful heavenly ndes Long pointed out. I am not sure what this all adds up to.

    Does it mean that Christianity is real and that Satan is deceiving those types of people who have had blissful heavenly ndes where there was a God who didn't judge them? I really hope that is not the case because I really detest Christianity. I don't think an all loving/all just God would have anyone go to hell. I don't believe in Christianity. But if it is real, then I would go to hell and that worries me.

    Here is a video that clearly points out to you how these types of hellish ndes are genuine and are not due to one's interpretations. This is a girl who had a hellish ndes and I can point out many other people who have had these ndes and how what they saw and heard were literal things encountered in their ndes:

     
    Brian_the_bard likes this.
  2. Steve

    Steve Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,490
    Why do you detest Christianity? Detest is like hate, a very strong word. Is it just Christianitythat you detest, or religion in general. What do you believe in?

    Why worry about the whole issue, just be the best person that you can be if you're that worried.
     
  3. Brian_the_bard

    Brian_the_bard Lost Pilgrim Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    552
    Not all christians believe in hell. I have just written a post in the Dr Leon Greene NDE sceptic thread on the topic if you are interested. I would say you detest christianity because us christians have mis-represented it for so long.:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    Steve, Enrique Vargas and Typoz like this.
  4. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,226
    Interestingly I can't remember reading a single validated after-death communication where someone claimed to have met god.
     
  5. Brian_the_bard

    Brian_the_bard Lost Pilgrim Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    552
    I have heard of some but I suspect interpretation has a lot to do with it. Interestingly I can't remember reading a single validated after-death experience of re-incarnation or becoming a ghost yet these phenomena seem to be just as real as NDEs.
     
  6. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,468
    A good point - although there are accounts of OBE practitioners helping souls that seem stuck after death - unaware that they are dead and in an unhappy state - which maybe corresponds to a hellish experience.

    The most important thing about hellish NDE's, is that studies show that these experiences don't seem to be associated with particular behaviour or particular beliefs - they don't seem to be a punishment. Some hellish NDE's resolve into the more traditional kind at some point.

    My guess is that the process of separation from the body is a fairly tricky process, and sometimes it simply goes wrong for a while! We tend to conceive of the spirit world as being beyond making mere mistakes, but maybe it isn't. Conceivably some or all NDE's are a mistake in the sense that the after-death process is started and then aborted.

    David
     
    Brian_the_bard likes this.
  7. Max_B

    Max_B Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,155
    Home Page:
    I suspect they are just repelling, or attractive,narratives. Probably based on an interaction between the relative beliefs & culture of the experient, vs the beliefs, culture & surrounding environment within which the experient is embedded.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  8. Brian_the_bard

    Brian_the_bard Lost Pilgrim Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Messages:
    552
    You have made me think a little. We often think of these things as either mind or spiritual reality. Could they not be both? Maybe one's mind is the means by which one experiences the invisible and therefore has an effect on how it is experienced. Why do we assume that the subjective is somehow less real than the objective?
     
  9. Transcended Multiverse

    Transcended Multiverse Bizarre, Transcended, and Omnipotent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    I only detest Christianity due to this whole idea of hell, being judged, and being punished for sin. I don't think there should be such things. As long as you are a kind and respectful person, then I think there should be no issues here. If there is an eternal blissful heaven, then I think such people like me should go there and shouldn't be punished over what a God deems as sin. I don't agree that a God who expects you to obey him/her and punishes you for not doing so would be an all loving/all just God. As for my worldview, I have no religious beliefs and neither am I convinced of the idea that once you die, that is it. Therefore, my worldview would be a completely undecided open minded worldview open to all views of the afterlife/paranormal including the view of scientific materialism which states that death is final.
     
  10. Steve

    Steve Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,490
    Jurgen Ziewe talks about this suicide bomber who seemed to be in a hellish place here:
    The ‘Paradise’ of a Suicide Bomber

    “Ever since the 9/11 atrocities of the World Trade Center bombing I have been wondering what sort of afterlife the perpetrators of such monstrous crimes would earn for themselves. It is obvious to anyone other than the most extreme fanatics that the sufferings endured by the victims, and their loved ones who are left behind, will cause deep, perhaps lifelong, trauma. It is inconceivable to imagine that some deity representing compassion, love and truth could possibly endorse such barbarity.

    Nature only works because it is rooted in reality, in universal laws that only work because they are finely tuned and balanced. Nature does not act in accordance to a fantasy, however strongly we wish the fantasy to be real.

    Before I had the following experience I already suspected that the feelings unleashed by the hapless victims of mass murder and those of their relatives and friends, as well as the indignation of others, would be inevitably focused on the perpetrators in some form or other, but I was not prepared for what I found.

    May 16, 2009

    Before this I had a number of Out-of-Body experiences, though none of what I experienced was worth reporting. When I woke up early in the morning, I knew if I kept my position without moving or opening my eyes, and waited for the familiar sounds in my head, I would be able to return to the OBE state and could perhaps, with new intent make some worthwhile observations.

    I wasn’t wrong, but what was to come rated as one of the most horrifying events I have ever witnessed during my long history of Out-of-Body travels and the whole of my life; a nightmare without parallel. The concept of belief, suicide, murder and reward had been lingering as an unresolved topic for a very long time in the back of my mind. What happens to those who blow themselves up and in the process murder and mutilate scores of other innocent men, women and children, while at the same time believing with passion and conviction that they would be rewarded by God for their ill-conceived ‘self-sacrifice’. I wanted to know the afterlife fate of suicide bombers.

    This is not how it started off. When I was back in my OBE state my first intention was to transfer into a spiritual region, but then the old unanswered question came back into my mind.

    This thought transported me almost instantly to the edge of a region that looked like a dark, nineteenth-century industrial park with bleak buildings covering a vast area and large smoke stacks. But this is not what it really was. I saw dark, billowing smoke rising from the ground into a black, menacing sky. As far as my eyes could see I was faced with a place of menacing desolation. The ground was almost pitch-black with cracks appearing everywhere and porous rough rock strewn over the wide area as if spewed out by a volcano and then cooled down into black ice. The sky was covered by billowing clouds formed by the smoke rising from the earth, occasionally lit up by sharp angry flashes of lightning releasing ear-shattering thunder, which made the ground tremble. If I had been asked by a film producer to create a scene to depict the end of the world, I would have come here for inspiration. This was an epic Hollywood version of Dante’s Inferno.

    With the next powerful thunderbolt I began to regret my decision of having come here, but curiosity made me urge myself further into the region until I finally discovered that the evil billowing smoke came from piles of slowly burning human bodies who were wriggling in agony. In the very first pile I encountered, these twisting, charred and convulsing bodies were stretching their hands and clamouring towards a person who was trapped right in the centre of the pile, who himself reached towards the bleak sky, desperately praying for help. The person was surrounded by the very real thought forms of his victims and the representation of their pain. However hard he pleaded, his voice never reached past the heavy curtain of smoke that shielded and surrounded him like an impregnable bastion. I quickly noticed that this impenetrable layer was made of regret and the realisation that the fate of his victims and their suffering could never ever be reversed or erased. It was a wall of absolute impossibility built from his victims’ pain and unbearable suffering and the overbearing realisation that this was a deed that could never be undone.

    That was not the only unpleasant thing that wafted towards me, there was also a smell which became stronger and more repugnant as I entered this graveyard of human misery.

    All this seemed to stretch for miles and I was astonished by the vast number of human debris occupying this field. Occasionally I saw dark, sinister figures darting across, who were not part of these piles, trying in vain to pull their lamenting comrades from the heaps of smouldering body parts. They were as dark as their surroundings they came from, their faces covered. Some were brandishing guns and when they saw me they glared angrily in my direction. Some yelled and took potshots at me, but their bullets fell limply to the ground after travelling only a couple of feet. Despite the horror surrounding me I was rooted in a placid stillness, knowing that no harm could come to me.

    Then I reached an area where I heard calls to prayer, but it was carried by a sad and lamenting note, unrecognisably distorted. I then noticed it came from people who had lost their faith, some cursing their god for not keeping his part of the bargain. Others defiantly and unrepentantly proclaimed their fanatical belief by yelling it at an unseen enemy who was barring their way into paradise. Above all, a black impenetrable sky responded with red flashes of lightning and roaring thunder.

    Then out of the gloom I saw a man approaching me. He did not look out of place in the sinister region. He wore what had once been a white gown but was now dirtied by the ashes. I could see in his face that he was a kind man and devoted to his faith. As he approached me his hands reached out. He told me how glad he was that somebody else had finally come to help in answer to his prayer and he praised God for showing such mercy. He explained to me that he was a helper and faced the awesome task to sort out this mess and rescue some of these poor misguided young people. He lamented that there were very few people brave enough to enter here and assist him in his insurmountable task.

    He directed my attention towards another pile of human remains. I could see severed arms and legs, heads with their jaws missing and blood and burned cadavers everywhere. The acrid stench of burned human flesh was everywhere. Right in the middle of the pile was a man wriggling, trying to free himself from the mess, but however hard he tried he sank back into the pile without the possibility of escape. Every so often he would sound out calling for his God and pleading for mercy but his prayer had no power. Instead, every time he uttered the name of his Lord he was confronted with the truth of his deed and how it was in opposition to what his religion had decreed. And now as soon as his prayer left his lips it was reeled back in almost instantly by the agony of his suffering victims which screamed back at him, and every time it did so he felt their pain and the consequences of his act. The image of a mother holding her mutilated child rising out of the pile and then sinking back again, a child clinging on to the dead body of its parents, the horror that consumed their whole being, a horse lying dying in the street, a young man staring in disbelief at his mangled body. All this played back in a feedback loop from which there was no apparent escape. It was an unending replay, made worse by the realisation there was nothing on Earth or under Heaven that could make this heinous crime undone.

    Nothing is stronger than reality. My solemn friend in his tarnished robes began to see that it was beyond my powers to save these poor victims of their own action.

    ‘But at least you must return and warn and report about this misery you have seen here in order to save people from their folly. Every person in the world must know that God is mercy and love and nothing must be stronger than Love. Unless people know the truth then many more will have his fate and many more will suffer and add to the numbers of the condemned in this region. It will get bigger and bigger.’

    I told him that I was probably the most unlikely person to convince the brothers and sisters of his faith and that he should try to find and convince somebody of his own faith to assist him. I told him that whatever I reported would only be seen as propaganda of the enemy and would have little effect in changing any behaviour. The man cast his head down and looked at the helpless pile of wriggling flesh. I felt sorry for this man and wished with all my heart that he could find extra help.

    I looked at the miserable soul who was trapped in the pile of wriggling and smouldering limbs and felt a wave of sorrow and sincere compassion and then directed my love towards him. I was surprised by the light emanating from my hand and lighting the region. In the light I could see faces emerging from many more piles such as this. Lost anguished souls turning towards me with their hands outstretched, reaching for the light. That was all I could do, but I hoped with all my heart that in some way it would break the horrific loop and free these people, who in the end were victims themselves.

    I walked through the vast killing field of misery, sending waves of light and hoping that through some mysterious way they would do some good and relieve some of this monstrous misery. While I was doing so I was praying inside my heart that people would learn and understand the key tenet of their religions, which was love and not hate.

    After death we no longer have the filters of our physical brains. Consciousness becomes like an open book. The moment we recall any of our entangled actions it triggers a deluge of information that will flood our conscious awareness and create our world. We are inevitably exposed to the complete network of entanglement we have created.

    It is very hard to escape this loop until our Consciousness transcends to a much higher level. In most cases this is only possible if we are able to deal with our identification effectively and successfully. Of course, if our action created victims – who suffered, we will have to find a way to obtain our victim’s forgiveness. If the victims themselves are in a lower dimensional state of Consciousness brought about by our action this is inevitably hard to obtain. We may plead and beg and try all kinds of things to make amends, but until our victims release us we will be bound by our action. This can go on for a very long time indeed. The more suffering we create, the greater the numbers of our victims, the harder we have to work to shake off the consequential entanglement with our deeds.

    Of course, we have to bear in mind that each one of us may have been guilty of a crime or misdemeanour at one stage in our career of becoming evolved individuals. In my previous book, I described how I had become a member of a gang of revolutionaries in the Middle Ages who made it their moral quest to ransack rich estates and kill the land-owners in order to liberate the repressed peasants. I then mentioned how one land-owner had turned up in my present life and destroyed my career. My Out-of-Body experience had traced the route of entanglement which stretched over hundreds of years.

    So what can we do to disentangle ourselves from our ill-conceived actions? The answer for this lies in our service and our heartfelt blessing. Our quiet service to others, putting them first without claiming credit is an effective way. We perform our service quietly, because we don’t want to compromise the service by being perceived as irritating do-gooders and in the end being told to mind our own business. We can provide service in the most innocuous kind of ways.

    Once, as a young man hitchhiking through England, I caught a bus on the Isle of Wight. At the end of the bus ride the driver, seeing me carrying my backpack, stopped me and started chatting. He then handed me a small glass tube containing dozens of layers of fine sands in various colours. He told me that these were all the different layers of sand that could be found if I went down to the beach. I was moved by his thoughtfulness and kindness and thanked him. When I came down to the beach I was overcome with awe at the grand spectacle of the oversized and grandiose work of art nature had presented me with. I felt an incredible thrill and in my heart I showed my sincere gratitude to the driver and still to this day feel a kind of cheery fondness for him when I think of it.

    Another time I received a call by a scammer who tried to persuade me to hand over the login details to my computer so he could ‘help me’ to clean up viruses. He claimed that a routine scan showed that my computer was infected and that they could fix it. I instantly saw his true intent and started listening to his patter. As he explained some technical detail I received the image of him sitting in a dark and windowless dungeon, the walls made out of resentment anger and hatred, and being animated by his many victims’ ill-feelings towards him in the form of sinister gargoyles and nagging monsters rising from the stone, shouting and swearing abuse at him. He was unable to escape from his prison. After he had finished his sales pitch I gently put it to him whether he had ever considered how his victims would feel when they discovered the damage caused by his crime. When he didn’t reply, I sensed an element of surprise, and I suggested he could start making amends by helping other people who were in real need and putting the money he had defrauded to good use. After a few seconds the line went quiet and I wondered whether this little service of mine would be bearing fruits.

    Of course, the opposite is true as well. If we create positive and beneficial outcomes for the people we entangle with, we will equally benefit from their joys, liberation, health and enrichment we have created. This is inevitably played out on a much higher dimensional level. Helping others, sending out love and kindness, is a powerful way to make sure we experience all the positive feedback that results from this.

    It is not as clear-cut as it sounds, though. Action demands wisdom. Let’s say we feel in a generous mood and give someone money and they in turn use it to buy a gun, which they use to kill somebody. Will we be indelibly linked to their crime? The answer is, I don’t know. That’s why I think there are no rules that can be laid down in stone, passed as a law to guide our action. Reality is an incredibly fine and complex mechanism and the safest way is to rely on inner wisdom sent from the heart to guide our discriminate action. Religions have always endeavoured to lay down laws and a code of morality, but the universal laws cannot be defined in human language. They are multidimensional and reach way beyond our level of understanding. What I am delivering is just a broad outline, which in eastern philosophy has been referred to as the law of karma, and in science is known as the law of cause and effect. It is only when we reach the higher realm beyond duality that we transcend these laws and our understanding becomes clear because then all our action will be guided, unselfishly, from a spontaneous wisdom level and in tune with the natural flow of the greater Consciousness, which requires no deliberation of what is good or bad. It simply acts in terms of what is required and in harmony with the dynamic processes of reality. All our actions then are free and even if somebody died as a result of our actions, perhaps in an accident if these actions were in tune with the greater workings of reality we will never be affected by any resulting entanglement.

    One thing we have to remember when contemplating the consequences of psychological and spiritual entanglement is that at the root of everything lies a universal force that can only be described as infinite grace, in the face of which even the most gruesome occurrences on Earth, in the universe and other levels of non-physical reality are little more than a projection of drama, an illusion, a movie played out against the multidimensional screen of Consciousness; they are part of a much greater play which we can only see from the higher viewpoints.”

    I know that this isn't an nde, but it seems rather hellish and hints that there are consequences of actions. I know some people don't agree with this idea, but I would suggest that seeing it for yourself as Jurgen says he has done, is stronger evidence that coming to it by ones intellect.

     
    Hurmanetar and Typoz like this.
  11. Steve

    Steve Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,490
    I find the idea of detesting something far easier if that something is here on earth, man-made, as Brian the Bard suggested, rather than an idea in my head or a suggestion in the bible. If god turns out to be small minded, with a chip on each shoulder, I can't do much about it, so I prefer not to think that way. To do so demeans the sacred that is all around us. From all that I know, such thinking is bound to be man made. If not, all I have to say is, "What a disappointment!" Haha

    Agree/disagree is pointless. :)
     
  12. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,468
    I suppose I tend to think the mind is already non-physical, and that it is the mind that escapes from the body at death.

    I find the concept of spirit without mind decidedly tenuous!

    David
     
    Obiwan likes this.
  13. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,226
    I guess if they're reincarnated then they won't be communicating after death - how might that work? There are certainly many after death communications that indicate that some form of reincarnation occurs but exactly when, how and why is somewhat moot. Those that talk about reincarnation all seem somewhat vague to me and difficult to validate.

    What do you mean by a 'ghost'? There are loads of examples of people materialising after death.

    I'd be interested to read ADC references to meeting god. If you get a chance to post a reference I'd appreciate it. I can see that there is room for interpretation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  14. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,468
    I am curious about what others think about Jurgen Ziewe. Clearly it is very hard to pick between those who are giving real information about non-physical realms, and those who may be fantasising or whatever. As I read one of his books, I found myself believing his account less and less - I find it a little hard to put into words.

    David
     
    Steve likes this.
  15. Steve

    Steve Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,490
    I'm feel quite sure that he's genuine, but at the same time I know what you mean!

    I wish that Tom Campbell talked about his own oob experiences, but I think I understand the reason he doesn't do so.
     
  16. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,468
    I don't doubt that he is genuine in the sense that he means what he says, but there is a fine line between the phenomena we are discussing and sheer hallucination.

    His descriptions just seem too glib.

    Also, to be honest, would a suicide bomber be deemed to be so guilty? I mean, suppose a man was deliberately tricked into thinking he needed to kill for some greater good, would he be at fault? The person doing the trickery would obviously be guilty as hell.

    David
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,490
    I disagree with that David. Are NDEs hallucinations, are dreams? I think you're venturing onto proponent thin ice.

    Well, I think intent is everything. You must surely know that you are doing wrong when you blow yourself and other innocent people up. It's an interesting question though. Maybe his intention was bad, where some others not so much ? If I blow people up in Gods name, maybe you might be right if I was convinced that it was the right thing to do. However I feel there would be a difference if two bombers committed the same crime, one with an iq of seventy, the other with one of one hundred and thirty.

    I feel that the light knows these things, like we know ourselves.
     
    Typoz likes this.
  18. Typoz

    Typoz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,407
    Well, I don't count myself as a member of his fan club - for me his content is just one slice of a rather large pie. However, the quoted extract above seemed reasonably acceptable to me.

    My way of considering such matters is not to agree or to disagree with what is said, but rather to digest it and let the result settle down of its own accord. After a period of time, say one or two years, those things of value tend to resonate in the memory, while those of lesser interest fade into the background. Of course this approach is personal and individual, my outcome won't be the same as that of other people, but I think that is exactly as it should be. The days of "one size fits all" beliefs I think are past.
     
    Steve likes this.
  19. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,468
    I know - and that is what makes it tricky - but there are presumably people who hallucinate for real, and I wonder if he is one. There are also people who don't clearly distinguish between fact and fantasy. You said yourself that you have doubts about him - how would you describe your doubts?
    I think it is reasonable to assume that anyone who blows themselves up, somehow believes it - at least almost everyone (it is said a few do it for the sake of riches given to their family).
    These terrible acts are clearly done for religious motives - that is the awful truth.

    David
     
  20. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,468
    Well isn't it an outlier - accounts of hell seem conspicuously absent on the whole?
    Broadly I agree with that - we can't know who is right and who is wrong - hell - I don't even know for sure whether I believe this stuff at all - we just have to seek out common threads, and connections that make sense.

    David
     
    Typoz likes this.

Share This Page