How bad is this “mildly dangerous” cult? And what’s their connection to near-death experience scienc

Are we suggesting IANDS might be engaging in cult like behavior?

They may be getting dangerously close to it... Cherry picking can be a strategy to attract an audience (pure marketing). But pressuring them to adopt a narrative, on the other hand, is at the very least immoral.
 
That is mortifying. I have always suspected that there is some cherry picking going on, but not that they actively pressured people towards a certain narrative.
Remember that cherry-picking talks for a conference is not the same thing as cherry-picking data in a study, which would be far worse. But they do want NDE talks that draw audiences, and the heaven tourists like talks about love and light. And don't be too "sciencey", because people don't pay to hear about science. It isn't a situation unique to IANDS. There is an NDE community out there who want to hear NDErs tell their stories... but only certain stories in a certain way.

Ultimately, IANDS conferences are about raising money for the organization. The organization tries to do as many educational talks as possible, but audiences don't go to those ones. They want speakers to be entertaining and uplifting... which not all NDEs are. Some NDEs are terrifying. They can be hard to integrate into daily life after they occur. Audiences don't want to know about that stuff. They want to hear that you've talked to god and know all the answers now.

I think there are good researchers out there doing good work. But there were far fewer people wanting to see Bruce Greyson's keynote than Eben Alexander's keynote.
 
Last edited:
That's interesting, K9. Is there a specific type of NDE report they favour ?
They want to hear the love and light stuff. What you've learned from "god". Don't talk about science if you can possibly avoid it. Don't tell people about your divorce following an NDE. Or that you are having trouble integrating the experience. They want to hear that all is well.
 
I've e-mailed IANDS for a copy of their tax filings for the last few years. Lets follow the money on this organization and find out the real story.

This is not necessary, since most of the returns (going back to 2002) are publicly available:

2014
2013
2012
2011
2010
2009
2008
2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002

The returns for 2011-2008 no longer seem available, but I saved them when I was last able to access them, and have added them as attachments below.

My reading of IANDS' tax returns suggests that a substantial portion of their revenue comes from their annual conferences. Therefore, it's no surprise that crowd-pleasing speakers are regularly invited.

Doug
 

Attachments

  • 061050150_201112_990EZ.pdf
    509.2 KB · Views: 2
  • 061050150_201012_990EZ.pdf
    502.3 KB · Views: 1
  • 061050150_200912_990EZ.pdf
    433.6 KB · Views: 1
  • 061050150_200812_990EZ.pdf
    692.6 KB · Views: 2
This is not necessary, since most of the returns (going back to 2002) are publicly available:

2014
2013
2012
2011
2010
2009
2008
2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002

The returns for 2011-2008 no longer seem available, but I saved them when I was last able to access them, and have added them as attachments below.

My reading of IANDS' tax returns suggests that a substantial portion of their revenue comes from their annual conferences. Therefore, it's no surprise that crowd-pleasing speakers are regularly invited.

Doug
Thanks, Doug. They don't make near as much as The Monroe Institute. They make around 2.5M each year.
 
All this has got me musing whether NDE science, would have been far better off in the acceptability stakes if religions didn't have heaven as part of their dogma.
The mere concept scares off not just the materialists but a wider range of anti-religious folk, because the last thing they want to see is their sacred science confirming religion.
And to make things even worse it seems some of the Mormons, evangelicals and even the Eckites are embracing the 'Light' just as long as it manifests as their chosen avatar.
Short of a whole batch of NDE-ers suddenly reading six figure numbers over their hospital beds, I don't see NDEs being written into the scientific textbooks any time soon!
By the way - not wishing to glorify the guru with 98 Rolls Royces, but did any of you read the comments from former cult members below the news story of murder and mayhem? I got the feeling that as with many organisations, the crazies took over and the vast majority of followers were simple spiritual people looking for the answer.
 
I think the issue with Eck and IANDS has more to do with allowing a cult to recruit members at IANDS conventions.
agreed... much more. everyone has there own suggestion for how to handle this kind of situation, but I think a healthy dose of reality checking is in order.

The real clincher for me is when Robert wasn't/able willing to get the Eck-ers to get out in front of this issue. I mean, if they really cared about IANDS they would have jumped at the chance to clear this up, but they didn't... and still havn't... just got an email from another IANDS board member telling me to read Anne's book... I said I'd be delighted to whenever she comes on.
 
All this has got me musing whether NDE science, would have been far better off in the acceptability stakes if religions didn't have heaven as part of their dogma.
The mere concept scares off not just the materialists but a wider range of anti-religious folk, because the last thing they want to see is their sacred science confirming religion.
And to make things even worse it seems some of the Mormons, evangelicals and even the Eckites are embracing the 'Light' just as long as it manifests as their chosen avatar.
Short of a whole batch of NDE-ers suddenly reading six figure numbers over their hospital beds, I don't see NDEs being written into the scientific textbooks any time soon!
By the way - not wishing to glorify the guru with 98 Rolls Royces, but did any of you read the comments from former cult members below the news story of murder and mayhem? I got the feeling that as with many organisations, the crazies took over and the vast majority of followers were simple spiritual people looking for the answer.
IANDS was originally set up as an organization just for NDE researchers, to provide professional support and networking opportunities for the few isolated researchers out there interested in studying NDEs. In some ways, it is unfortunate that IANDS didn't remain as an academic organization.

Nancy Evans Bush was the one to suggest the inclusion of NDErs, and a mandate to help support experiencers under the umbrella of the IANDS organization. Unfortunately, the scientific side of the organization has become eclipsed by current the pop culture interest in NDEs.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point IANDS became two distinct organizations. They have already separated the conference into the research talks and the general topics program. The general topics part of the program is becoming more and more tailored to the heaven tourists, which BTW is not necessarily intended to appeal to NDErs themselves. Many NDErs feel put off by the whole heaven tourist nonsense.

I just wonder when the serious researchers will decide they need to separate themselves completely from the circus.
 
Last edited:
agreed... much more. everyone has there own suggestion for how to handle this kind of situation, but I think a healthy dose of reality checking is in order.

The real clincher for me is when Robert wasn't/able willing to get the Eck-ers to get out in front of this issue. I mean, if they really cared about IANDS they would have jumped at the chance to clear this up, but they didn't... and still havn't... just got an email from another IANDS board member telling me to read Anne's book... I said I'd be delighted to whenever she comes on.
I've seen Anne Archer Butcher's Eck sermon at IANDS, complete with quotes from "the living Eck Master" (aka "god", aka "some guy named Harold"), that seemed completely inappropriate for an IANDS conference. The IANDS people are all very taken with the cult... but that's how cults operate. Cult people love bomb everyone. They tell you how wonderful you are. It's hard to disengage from that kind of thing. Even smart people like Robert can get sucked in...
 
Last edited:
All this has got me musing whether NDE science, would have been far better off in the acceptability stakes if religions didn't have heaven as part of their dogma.
Well dogma is indeed troublesome. But the probability is that most religions, at least the ancient ones arose from such things as NDEs, dreams, visions and so on - there is some overlap somewhere in my opinion. But I don't want to encourage any dogma.

By the way - not wishing to glorify the guru with 98 Rolls Royces, but did any of you read the comments from former cult members below the news story of murder and mayhem? I got the feeling that as with many organisations, the crazies took over and the vast majority of followers were simple spiritual people looking for the answer.
I didn't get as far as the comments. But years ago one of my close friends was a follower, one of the most special yet ordinary people I've ever met. He dressed in red and so on, but other than that he was just one of the crowd, an ordinary guy.
 
Well dogma is indeed troublesome. But the probability is that most religions, at least the ancient ones arose from such things as NDEs, dreams, visions and so on - there is some overlap somewhere in my opinion. But I don't want to encourage any dogma.
.
Yes, the overlap is obvious. If NDEs are being presented as some sort of glimpse of the hereafter, they are bound to be very interesting/attractive to religious groups. In fact they might argue, with some justification, that scripture provided some of the prior plausibility for NDE research.
 
You would be amazed how many people I have met that are more open to accept survival when you strip it of religious connotations and come up with some plausible quantum information mumbo jumbo... You can't alienate that audience by sanctioning a religion, and much less a "cult".

But, the thing is that this "cult" found a niche in NDEs, which feature a sort of universal acceptance, and are exploiting it by trying to equate it to their "love"-based propaganda. Since that machinery is already in place, it is up to the higher ups to build up the common sense to distance the organization from the "cult", even if the other members of IANDS decide to remain affiliated to it.
 
You would be amazed how many people I have met that are more open to accept survival when you strip it of religious connotations and come up with some plausible quantum information mumbo jumbo... You can't alienate that audience by sanctioning a religion, and much less a "cult".

But, the thing is that this "cult" found a niche in NDEs, which feature a sort of universal acceptance, and are exploiting it by trying to equate it to their "love"-based propaganda. Since that machinery is already in place, it is up to the higher ups to build up the common sense to distance the organization from the "cult", even if the other members of IANDS decide to remain affiliated to it.
I agree. When I think of all those IANDS people insisting that Alex read Butcher's book... as if reading that book will make him understand how wonderful Anne's religion is and that will fix everything. But they completely miss the point. Had someone given a Christian sermon at an IANDS conference, that would also have been inappropriate. Reading the Bible afterwards would not make that kind of violation of IANDS charter seem any more appropriate. And there are a lot of people out there who like the Bible more than Archer's book.
 
Last edited:
Christianity, Islam, even Buddhism - all this "traditional" religions - are guilty of the countless atrocities. Does this mean that they are "cults"? Why is this label used only in connection to small and novel groups?

So, I will side along Robert Mays when he is saying:

This is one concern I wanted to bring in but you said it in a nicer way than I would have.

I mean Eckites aren't telling us God pulls a Dr. Mengele on the Day of Judgement to separate the saved (who picked the right ticket in the "Belief Lottery") from the damned.

OTOH, what might make it a cult is the pressures against leaving or criticizing....yet does that make a conservatively Hindu/Catholic/etc family a cult? If I said I was converting to Christianity - or Vishnu forbid Islam lol - there are family members who'd consider disowning me, isolating me, etc.
 
Hi everyone. I´m new here. I like the tone in this forum, thankyou all for contributing to it, though I won´t become a particularly avid poster. The reason for me to get signed up now, was these difficulties affecting IANDs. At this point, I believe that earlier posters have done a good job of expressing the importance of the matter, but still, since this is a question at heart to me, here are my thoughts.

It seems like IANDs is in some kind of ideological slump. I am not familiar with the American system, but in my country how to handle this, in a serious association of IANDs magnitude, would have been secured by their statues.

To be able to improve the tools for making NDEs scientifically accepted IANDs have to ensure their own methods is credited as ethically house-trained. Defense mode in respecting personal religions, regarding to the questions raised by Anne A Bs behavior, makes them sadly enough miss that point. I really hope they will be able to embrace that! If not it creates disorientation according to what kind of agenda inspires those put in place to run IANDs.

The most important reason for neutrality is the fact that in the same moment one particular item gets highlighted or included – another one gets in the shadow or excluded. An association like IANDs should have the mature strength to emphasize that at the same time as they ensure respect for any individual personal beliefs. Now it looks like the heads of IANDs need some processing according to poor boundaries, to accomplish that. What are they going to do otherwise to make sure to remain neutral? Allow/encourage every member, to hand out personal preferable salvation material, on their events? Begin their events like this?




It also seems backward if the members of the board consider it negligible that the person they trust to be their specialist in handling IANDs public affairs and to be in the right position to improve their connections to media is religiously involved to the degree that she will use the platform of IANDs to promote and connect to her religious affiliation. May it be of a non-cultic, a mild-cultic, or severe-cultic kind. If they not are able to figure out how to make clear that this is not in the manual for IANDs workers, because the importance of the intellectual integrity they as such need to honor, IANDs will be a very easy target for intentional or unintentional corruption.

And, finally it is very confusing that the supposed spider in their public world web is shying away from clearing out the business with Skeptiko herself, at the same time as the board in general obviously regards this as a forum important enough for them to assign dr. May to do it. On their behalf in defense mode.

I hope IANDs will be able to sort this out in a way that keeps their reputation in order and strengthen their understanding of the important points that have been made in the interview and in this thread.
 
They want to hear the love and light stuff. What you've learned from "god". Don't talk about science if you can possibly avoid it. Don't tell people about your divorce following an NDE. Or that you are having trouble integrating the experience. They want to hear that all is well.

Thanks, K9, that's interesting. Iands has been important for many reasons but if it were to end up going off the rails (so to speak) I don't think it would be too difficult for another group to start up.
 
I still stand by my original position that to be scientific then all experiencers - religious, culty or not - must be included.
But evidence has surfaced here that there has been the deliberate proselytising of the Eck teachings which is not in order.
That surely is the big point which unless I missed it, wasn't addressed in the interview.
It's a pity this discussion didn't take place before the interview and Alex could have been better briefed to document actual instances where there was Eck preaching.
Maybe these allegations could be sent now to IANDS to elicit their response?
That said, I'm unsure how experiencers could fully tell their stories without giving some of their belief background which is vital to researchers when assessing whether their religion could have influenced their NDE.
I have often heard for instance a Christian's fear of hell being suggested as a reason they experienced one.
 
Last edited:
Robert Mays has very kindly and promptly provided the financial information for IANDS. They jive with what Doug has provided above. Total earnings are around $200,000 per year.

Clearly no one is getting rich due to their association with IANDS.

Anne's book is evidently not available as a pdf online. At least I haven't been able to find it. The reviews are quite positive on Amazon. Quite frankly, the book looks like all the other "spiritual" books that are out now.

I do think it is odd that IANDS would align themselves with a particular spiritual organization. But it may be that Anne is just a very energetic, positive person that adds value to the IANDS organization as a whole.

I'm not ready to condemn Eckankar for the repugnant actions of certain people in power at the top of the organization. I don't doubt that the majority of folks involved in Eckankar are good folks. Plagiarism has been the name of the religion creation game since the beginning of time. Eckankar is clearly not Scientology. The suggested yearly membership fee is $60.00. You needn't pay anything to be a member of Eckankar.
 
Back
Top