That some think it isn't as bad as Scientology behaviour so that makes it all OK, or that many other paths have done similar things as Eckankar by drawing on other earlier paths is pure sophistry imv. This kind of thinking is illogical and irrational iow fallacious. Manjit is a good guy too btw, but he does not know as much about Eckankar as I and others do. thx
Hi PTEHA, thanks for the interesting posts! I've found them challenging! Firstly, you very kindly say I'm "a good guy", so I wonder if you're aware of my posts from Dave's forum, or if that was a generalisation? You'd be one of very few who'd think that of me from there haha :D I'm at a disadvantage though, as I'm not sure if recall who you are, though I have vagues memories of maybe some very infrequent posts of yours there?
Also, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you are far more knowledgeable about the organisational & social aspects of Eck than I ever will be. So I take this as an opportunity to learn more about it, perhaps you can convince me of how evil it is (joke :) !! I would question though, if that is also the case when it comes to the guru-disciple dynamic, the ancient history & evolution of the practices & experiences Eck is based on, especially Radhasoami (I have read several of Twitchell's books, and can place pretty well his teachings within that spectrum), cults in general, and of course the not oft mentioned psychology of "exers"
The thing is, I'm not saying that it makes it "all OK" if Eck isn't as bad as scientology. Actually, I wasn't making any judgements of that sort at all was I? I just said it isn't as bad in my personal opinion! I like to deal with truths and reality, not so much judgements (though "bad" can itself be seen as judgemental, I'm just using that as a descriptive word to describe types of behaviour we all understand, so as a linguistic device rather than judgemental).
I actually found it interesting to look at Twitchell as just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, he was on the cusp of an age and in a country where such deception couldn't pass. Actually what he was doing was what nearly every single Radhasoami guru before him had done, right back to the very first one (which one WAS the first one? Nobody knows, too much deception haha!). But outside of the context of Indian culture, the mysterious turbaned, bearded, magical "God-men", the mysteries of the east, and the obscuration of fact by poor recorded history and mountains of hagiography, he was caught out and exposed as just a charlatan!
Deary me, Blavatsky & her Hidden Brotherhood wouldn't have got very far in 1970, I tell you that. (and perhaps Jesus, Buddha, Nanak, Kabir and a million other revered ancient mystics and saints, protected by the obscurity of the past and hagiography)
Am I saying "it's OK"? Absolutely not! I think it's all a farce! Nonsensical! But I just can't say it's "good" or "bad". It is what it is!
Re. this "psychotic" experience of Klemp. Interesting, can you please share more of the experience here if possible? I'm sorry, I personally have absolutely no respect for how "spiritual experiences" are sanitised by RSSB and Ruhani, and how psychiatry and western science diagnose "spiritual crises" (and how it increasingly moves towards classifying ANY psychic, synchronicitous, altered states etc as psycho-pathological psychosis....most of us psychotic on this forum you know :). If you could post his experience here, perhaps we can discuss the REAL biological & psychological effects of a powerful spiritual awakening, those never mentioned in mainstream schools for "laymen" like Radhasoamis or Eck, and if there is any possibility at all that is indeed what Klemp was experiencing or not?
Kirpal claimed many things which are comparable to Twitchell, btw. Have you heard anything about the possible contents of his personal diaries? Or some of the things he said in more private settings? Actually, I think Twitchell was the natural product of a Kirpal.....
Re. Anne's book.....that it is published by Eck is indeed troubling. First really troubling thing I've heard. But only mildly so....what does it contain? I don't know, so I cannot put Robert's remark to Alex in context. I won't rush to judgement about something I'm ignorant of, sorry!
Millions donated? Yes, people do that to things they are passionate about. Silly humans! Some donate millions to cat shelters, some to the Catholic Church, some to militant terrorists, some to murderous political parties, some to their local football club. Very often, many of these organisations don't disclose that information (btw, can't anyone access a registered charities accounts? Isn't that public info?). Dastardly human organisations!!
The only real question is, is there any pressurizing to donate money? You include them selling books to make money in your argument....that does give the appearance of really over-stretching to make your point imo?
You also mention that Twitchell didn't only plagiarise RS books. He in fact plagiarised 69 authors no less! Fair enough. But please try and see my perspective here, for a moment, whether he plagiarised 1 author, 69 authors, or 8569 authors....it does not increase how "dangerous" his "cult" is with each author, does it?
I noticed also you had edited your original post to remove the claim you knew "thousands" of ex Eckers who felt abused or whatever? I wished to comment to that. As on your several mentions in your posts of sexual abuse & slavery by religions, as if there is some sort of guilt by association to be had here?
Here's the point. If somebody asked me to list "dangerous" things about Scientology, I could write a list of 20 seriously and obviously concerning things, no problem.
When it comes to Eck, the list of 20 things would be 1) Twitchell plagiarised, 2) Klemp was diagnosed by western medicine to have had a psychotic breakdown, which he claimed was a spiritual crises or awakening or whatever 3) they sell books, for a normal book price 4) Twitchell plagiarised again 5) He did it again you know! 6) Uh oh, another case of plagiarism 7)........;)
Personally, I find Eck (and indeed most of Radhasoami) to be absurd and nonsensical. I also personally don't think they are any more "dangerous" than just living your every day life, which if you think about it is an incredibly precarious position to be in at all times.
The only Radhasoami guru I would ever recommend anybody read up on is the magnificent Baba Faqir Chand Ji:
http://dlane5.tripod.com/point2.html#FA