How times change

[Typoz]

Same problem, different subject. This board is full of people who argue from ignorance and it absolutely sucks the fun out of it.

You may be right, though I wouldn't want to make this about any specific individuals.

I've seen the same thing on other forums. It can take several forms, one where a newcomer is unable to grasp basic concepts, but instead argues against them. A second form is from the experienced expert, who may have what one might describe as a 'blind spot' which blocks their own ability to understand basic concepts. Worrying, but it does happen. Others just like to argue for fun, while having no interest whatsoever in the subject matter. (Note, I'm not referring to this forum, just what I've encountered elsewhere).

 

[Far.From.Here]

Well, here is where I get bitter about the forum. I wrote a lot of heart-felt posts dealing with dreams, psy, loss and grief, and it was all deleted. Not the off-topic posts. No, the whole thread was deleted. I think you and I did interact on that thread, but... Nope ALL gone. That kind of moderation doesn't help things. Made me hesitate to get invested in threads, but maybe I should not. Happened about a week after I joined, too.

The actual moderator is basically absent at this point. He has a history of eliminating threads that get under his skin for whatever reason. Just part of the process.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Sure, I am in agreement with you. But why get invested in building a community if members are banned arbitrarily? Or write serious replies to have them erased because someone somewhere in the thread mentioned MU? Yes yes, I am bitter about that ...;)

Wrote this before Far's reply. -- edit

 

[Far.From.Here]

Sure, I am in agreement with you. But why get invested in building a community if members are banned arbitrarily? Or write serious replies to have them erased because someone somewhere in the thread mentioned MU? Yes yes, I am bitter about that ...;)

Wrote this before Far's reply. -- edit

I guess it depends why you come to the forum. I came here after decades lived as a materialist atheist. I rediscovered something I had lost from my youth partially through reading and writing here. From listening to the podcast. Thinking. Practice. Meditation. Trial by fire. Now I've come full circle and I no longer know anything at all. I'm lost. But my point is that if you are here to learn and grow it shouldn't matter what happens to any individual thread. Hell. Years of the original forum were left behind when Alex decided to move here. That stuff is basically gone. None of this stuff matters. Losing a thread doesn't eliminate the community, whatever that is. I understand your heartache, though. Don't get me wrong.

 

[Doppelgänger]

I guess it depends why you come to the forum. I came here after decades lived as a materialist atheist. I rediscovered something I had lost from my youth partially through reading and writing here. From listening to the podcast. Thinking. Practice. Meditation. Trial by fire. Now I've come full circle and I no longer know anything at all. I'm lost. But my point is that if you are here to learn and grow it shouldn't matter what happens to any individual thread. Hell. Years of the original forum were left behind when Alex decided to move here. That stuff is basically gone. None of this stuff matters. Losing a thread doesn't eliminate the community, whatever that is. I understand your heartache, though. Don't get me wrong.

Sure, it is all well and good to tell a newbie to not care or get invested in threads on forums and have discussions with other human beings. That would be, like, totally Roman, or something like that.

Because you are above it all.. And because you did super-serious meditation, people should just shut up and stop thinking, because other super-serious thinkers have already done super-serious thinking. And serious people won't care at all when their conversations are erased for no reason... because "enlightenment" or something like that. :)

 

[Far.From.Here]

Sure, it is all well and good to tell a newbie to not care or get invested in threads on forums and have discussions with other human beings. That would be, like, totally Roman, or something like that.

Because you are above it all.. And because you did super-serious meditation, people should just shut up and stop thinking, because other super-serious thinkers have already done super-serious thinking. And serious people won't care at all when their conversations are erased for no reason... because "enlightenment" or something like that. :)

Not what I was saying at all. I see your liberal use of smiley faces. This can be a great place to learn about all sides of the subjects that are discussed here. I find myself in great sympathy with most all of the voices here. Everyone is at a different place and comes here for different reasons. I didn't mean to downplay your angst over losing some really good and meaningful writing. It has happened to anyone who wrote a great post and hit reply only to have the server fail! I'm glad you are here as a relatively new forum member. I wish there were hundreds of new members instead of just a handful.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Ugh.... Sorry for the snark. I did have a point, somewhere, in there...... Or maybe I didn't!

 

[Far.From.Here]

No snark detected.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Not what I was saying at all. I see your liberal use of smiley faces. This can be a great place to learn about all sides of the subjects that are discussed here. I find myself in great sympathy with most all of the voices here. Everyone is at a different place and comes here for different reasons. I didn't mean to downplay your angst over losing some really good and meaningful writing. It has happened to anyone who wrote a great post and hit reply only to have the server fail! I'm glad you are here as a relatively new forum member. I wish there were hundreds of new members instead of just a handful.

Okay .. But I used only one smiley, hardly liberal. ;) ;)

You are actually one of my favorite posters, TBH. No serious quarrel with you.

Edit: info.

 

[Arouet]

Sure, I am in agreement with you. But why get invested in building a community if members are banned arbitrarily? Or write serious replies to have them erased because someone somewhere in the thread mentioned MU? Yes yes, I am bitter about that ...;)

Wrote this before Far's reply. -- edit

Yes, there have been some heartbreaking deletions in the past! (There have been some that really left me with a sense of loss).

I think the structure of the forum (meaning the division of subforums) is diverse enough to cover all of the topics expressed above that people are interested in.

And I think we can all work on raising the level of discussion here. Myself included.

Many of us on both sides get frustrated by the way our posts are responded to. I think this stems from the fact that many of us approach issues from different angles, and have different purposes for our posts. This leads to misconstruing the others' post.

I haven't quite found a good practical solution though. To have good communication, when approaching problems from different angles, we need to be able to put ourselves in the frame of mind of the other poster. This is easier said than done.

I've also found I've been letting my frustration at some responses to my posts leak out into my replies. This rarely improves the level of discussion. I will work on that.

 

[Doppelgänger]

No snark detected.

Yes, there have been some heartbreaking deletions in the past! (There have been some that really left me with a sense of loss).

I think the structure of the forum (meaning the division of subforums) is diverse enough to cover all of the topics expressed above that people are interested in.

And I think we can all work on raising the level of discussion here. Myself included.

Many of us on both sides get frustrated by the way our posts are responded to. I think this stems from the fact that many of us approach issues from different angles, and have different purposes for our posts. This leads to misconstruing the others' post.

I haven't quite found a good practical solution though. To have good communication, when approaching problems from different angles, we need to be able to put ourselves in the frame of mind of the other poster. This is easier said than done.

I've also found I've been letting my frustration at some responses to my posts leak out into my replies. This rarely improves the level of discussion. I will work on that.

Hi Arouet - love the reference btw. Everyone loves a good beat-down by the French "Enlightenment"!

I also think we should spend more time on making people define their definitions, don't you think? No one wants to get lost. Right?

 

[Saiko]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a very goal oriented person; I like to get stuff done. When I teach something, I expect people to learn, not argue endlessly with me. It doesn't work in construction and it doesn't work here. I don't have any patience for it and it's a poor use of my time anyway.
.

lol. That's a problematic attitude for discourse. It's also startlingly silly. A bout of mild megalomania huh? :) If you have food that you enjoy and think of as nutritious and you'd like to share it - set it out on the table. Some will eat it, some will toss it in the garbage. What you "expect" is irrelevant. If you're not okay with that, keep the food to yourself. Simple. If you'd like to delve into a more intellectual version of that perspective, there's the Bohm dialogue.

 

[malf]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a very goal oriented person; I like to get stuff done. When I teach something, I expect people to learn, not argue endlessly with me. It doesn't work in construction and it doesn't work here. I don't have any patience for it and it's a poor use of my time anyway.

So I have moved over to topics where the footing would supposedly be more equal; 9/11 and stuff like that. Same problem, different subject. This board is full of people who argue from ignorance and it absolutely sucks the fun out of it.

Thanks of being honest enough to admit you're not really a "discussion type".

 

[Saiko]

I haven't quite found a good practical solution though. To have good communication, when approaching problems from different angles, we need to be able to put ourselves in the frame of mind of the other poster. This is easier said than done.

It is, on the levels you're referring to, often not doable. It's also easier to state it than to even want to do it across the board . And there's the rub . . .when someone states something that is far outside one's purview more often than not one will move to dismiss or marginalize it. The default belief that one's "reality tunnel" is the all of reality and the only reality is very strong and has many influences from the micro to the macro

 

[Doppelgänger]

No snark detected.

Yeah, despite the cross-posting, maybe it wasn't snark. Sigh.

 

[MysticG]

I occasionally disagreed with Gabriel, but on the whole I considered him a valued member. But forum life, as I've seen elsewhere, can be a rough one, and in terms of moderating policy it's impossible to please everyone.

What would I like to see discussed? Well, I've hinted at it before. Personally I'm not looking for proofs. There's certainly a place for that, and it is right that things should be examined with a critical eye.

However, I'm more interested in things which lie in the region beyond proof. An obvious one is personal experience. I've a huge respect for anyone who feels able to share any of their personal experiences. For example this may include unusual dreams, or indeed experiences while awake.

A related area is the information or ideas which may be found elsewhere, preferably online, though occasionally in books and so on. I don't feel obliged to follow a "this is either true or it is false" path when it come to considering other material. I'm happy to tread an in-between path, and let my intuition be my guide. This may include such things as channelled information - though I'll admit that much of what I've seen doesn't hold my attention for very long.

You've captured something here that I have also been feeling for a while. I keep reading the threads, and occasionally posting... but I am increasingly feeling out of touch with this forum. I don't know whether it is the forum that has changed, or my interests. Probably a combination of the two.

Like you, I would like to see more personal experiences. On these subjects, I consider "proof" to be something that can only be obtained on an individual basis. So I'm not interested in the proponent vs skeptic debates about what counts as proof or what counts as evidence. I'm also not really interested in listening to more podcast episodes where Alex debates a skeptic.

I was exposed to a lot of new information here. I've learned a lot from other posters and my viewpoint on many subjects has changed for the better. But I still keep feeling like it may be time for me to move on...

 

[brooke]

When I teach something, I expect people to learn, not argue endlessly with me...I don't have any patience for it and it's a poor use of my time anyway.

Craig Weiler, son!

 

[Saiko]

You've captured something here that I have also been feeling for a while. I keep reading the threads, and occasionally posting... but I am increasingly feeling out of touch with this forum. I don't know whether it is the forum that has changed, or my interests. Probably a combination of the two.

Like you, I would like to see more personal experiences. On these subjects, I consider "proof" to be something that can only be obtained on an individual basis. So I'm not interested in the proponent vs skeptic debates about what counts as proof or what counts as evidence. I'm also not really interested in listening to more podcast episodes where Alex debates a skeptic.

I'd say pseudo-skeptic but yeah.

 

[Craig Weiler]

lol. That's a problematic attitude for discourse. It's also startlingly silly. A bout of mild megalomania huh? :) If you have food that you enjoy and think of as nutritious and you'd like to share it - set it out on the table. Some will eat it, some will toss it in the garbage. What you "expect" is irrelevant. If you're not okay with that, keep the food to yourself. Simple. If you'd like to delve into a more intellectual version of that perspective, there's the Bohm dialogue.

It's not as problematic as it appears. I'm willing to engage in a conversation -if I think it's going somewhere. Too much of this is of the "black is really white" variety where no agreement can be reached because the skeptics are fighting for an ideology. If you substituted the bible for skeptical sources you'd have a hard time telling them from evangelicals. The evidence for psi is there, it's completely convincing for anyone willing to look at it closely and why should I waste my time arguing about that with people whose beliefs are too strong to overcome? I know how every conversation is going to play out before I even start. Where is the fun in that?

 

[Types With Fingers]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a very goal oriented person; I like to get stuff done. When I teach something, I expect people to learn, not argue endlessly with me. It doesn't work in construction and it doesn't work here. I don't have any patience for it and it's a poor use of my time anyway.

So I have moved over to topics where the footing would supposedly be more equal; 9/11 and stuff like that. Same problem, different subject. This board is full of people who argue from ignorance and it absolutely sucks the fun out of it.

He said, naturally excluding me from the argues-from-ignorance group.