Isaac Weishaup, Dangerous Conspiracies |483|

#2
About halfway through the episode (loving it btw), and something I think a lot of conspiracy theorists struggle with is the idea of who is good and who is bad. I think a study of public choice theory and institutional economics (fancy way of saying how self-interested actors behave under different incentive structures) helps bring some realism and reveal the complexity of this stuff.

For example, is the Illuminati bad or good? What about individual members? What if they intended bad but good results happened? etc.

I think it's helpful to conceive of two seperate 2x2 matrices. One on means, and one on ends. So visualize if you will:

Martrix 1: MEANS (i.eg methods used to bring about a goal)

one axis is Good and Bad
other axis is Believed to be Good, Believed to be Bad (by the person taking the action)

Matrix 2: ENDS (i.e. the outcome sought)

one axis is Good and Bad
one axis is Believed to be Good, Believed to be Bad (by person seeking the outcome)

Every combination of each matrix is in play here, and all occur. This is what makes it tough to breakdown who's "good" or "bad" in a general way.

For example, you may have a secret society like the Illuminati with some members believing themselves to be employing good means for good ends. Sometimes they may actually be employing good means for good ends (e.g. printing books about the value of an individual human life that people read and feel more empowered by). Sometimes they may think their means/ends are good, but one could be bad (e.g. trying to pass a law that forces people to read said book. Means (legal mandate backed by violence) is bad, even if ends (people reading about self empowerment) is good.) The ends can also be believed to be good but actually be bad (e.g. wanting no one to own private property may wrongly be believed to be a wonderful end, but in reality its hell).

Some members may be choosing to knowingly engage in bad means (e.g. making a dark deal with the devil, literally or figuratively) to bring about what they think are good ends (e.g. to end a war). Some may be knowingly engaging in bad means (deal with devil) to bring about knowingly bad ends (the murder of children) bc they know it will bring them personal power and they have fully given themselves over to evil.

I think these societies have individuals across the whole spectrum, and different individuals can change over time as well (e.g. thinking your secret blood sacrifice was for the good but realizing you were wrong).

There are people trying to understand and use extended consciousness realms and spirits/entities in good and bad ways for good and bad ends all the time. There are conspiracies for good and bad, and good ones that end up with bad results, and bad ones that end up with good results.

We all know life is like this in the material plane; within a company you work for, politics, etc. It's no different for those dealing with unseen realms.

Unsatisfying, I know. But helpful to get a sense of the "political economy" of conspiracy theories.
 

Alex

Administrator
#3
About halfway through the episode (loving it btw), and something I think a lot of conspiracy theorists struggle with is the idea of who is good and who is bad. I think a study of public choice theory and institutional economics (fancy way of saying how self-interested actors behave under different incentive structures) helps bring some realism and reveal the complexity of this stuff.

For example, is the Illuminati bad or good? What about individual members? What if they intended bad but good results happened? etc.

I think it's helpful to conceive of two seperate 2x2 matrices. One on means, and one on ends. So visualize if you will:

Martrix 1: MEANS (i.eg methods used to bring about a goal)

one axis is Good and Bad
other axis is Believed to be Good, Believed to be Bad (by the person taking the action)

Matrix 2: ENDS (i.e. the outcome sought)

one axis is Good and Bad
one axis is Believed to be Good, Believed to be Bad (by person seeking the outcome)

Every combination of each matrix is in play here, and all occur. This is what makes it tough to breakdown who's "good" or "bad" in a general way.

For example, you may have a secret society like the Illuminati with some members believing themselves to be employing good means for good ends. Sometimes they may actually be employing good means for good ends (e.g. printing books about the value of an individual human life that people read and feel more empowered by). Sometimes they may think their means/ends are good, but one could be bad (e.g. trying to pass a law that forces people to read said book. Means (legal mandate backed by violence) is bad, even if ends (people reading about self empowerment) is good.) The ends can also be believed to be good but actually be bad (e.g. wanting no one to own private property may wrongly be believed to be a wonderful end, but in reality its hell).

Some members may be choosing to knowingly engage in bad means (e.g. making a dark deal with the devil, literally or figuratively) to bring about what they think are good ends (e.g. to end a war). Some may be knowingly engaging in bad means (deal with devil) to bring about knowingly bad ends (the murder of children) bc they know it will bring them personal power and they have fully given themselves over to evil.

I think these societies have individuals across the whole spectrum, and different individuals can change over time as well (e.g. thinking your secret blood sacrifice was for the good but realizing you were wrong).

There are people trying to understand and use extended consciousness realms and spirits/entities in good and bad ways for good and bad ends all the time. There are conspiracies for good and bad, and good ones that end up with bad results, and bad ones that end up with good results.

We all know life is like this in the material plane; within a company you work for, politics, etc. It's no different for those dealing with unseen realms.

Unsatisfying, I know. But helpful to get a sense of the "political economy" of conspiracy theories.
nice! New to me, and very interesting.

I think this is the kind of stuff I've been trying to get with you why evil matters... I mean, it seems to me that we can't even begin to process these huge problems with these bad actors until weekend begin to come to grips with some of these kinds of issues

it also seems to me that our inability to deal with "spirituality " and the reality of extended consciousness ads to the problem
 
#4
About halfway through the episode (loving it btw), and something I think a lot of conspiracy theorists struggle with is the idea of who is good and who is bad. I think a study of public choice theory and institutional economics (fancy way of saying how self-interested actors behave under different incentive structures) helps bring some realism and reveal the complexity of this stuff.

For example, is the Illuminati bad or good? What about individual members? What if they intended bad but good results happened? etc.

I think it's helpful to conceive of two seperate 2x2 matrices. One on means, and one on ends. So visualize if you will:

Martrix 1: MEANS (i.eg methods used to bring about a goal)

one axis is Good and Bad
other axis is Believed to be Good, Believed to be Bad (by the person taking the action)

Matrix 2: ENDS (i.e. the outcome sought)

one axis is Good and Bad
one axis is Believed to be Good, Believed to be Bad (by person seeking the outcome)

Every combination of each matrix is in play here, and all occur. This is what makes it tough to breakdown who's "good" or "bad" in a general way.

For example, you may have a secret society like the Illuminati with some members believing themselves to be employing good means for good ends. Sometimes they may actually be employing good means for good ends (e.g. printing books about the value of an individual human life that people read and feel more empowered by). Sometimes they may think their means/ends are good, but one could be bad (e.g. trying to pass a law that forces people to read said book. Means (legal mandate backed by violence) is bad, even if ends (people reading about self empowerment) is good.) The ends can also be believed to be good but actually be bad (e.g. wanting no one to own private property may wrongly be believed to be a wonderful end, but in reality its hell).

Some members may be choosing to knowingly engage in bad means (e.g. making a dark deal with the devil, literally or figuratively) to bring about what they think are good ends (e.g. to end a war). Some may be knowingly engaging in bad means (deal with devil) to bring about knowingly bad ends (the murder of children) bc they know it will bring them personal power and they have fully given themselves over to evil.

I think these societies have individuals across the whole spectrum, and different individuals can change over time as well (e.g. thinking your secret blood sacrifice was for the good but realizing you were wrong).

There are people trying to understand and use extended consciousness realms and spirits/entities in good and bad ways for good and bad ends all the time. There are conspiracies for good and bad, and good ones that end up with bad results, and bad ones that end up with good results.

We all know life is like this in the material plane; within a company you work for, politics, etc. It's no different for those dealing with unseen realms.

Unsatisfying, I know. But helpful to get a sense of the "political economy" of conspiracy theories.
I still haven't developed my intuition enough to be completely comfortable w/ letting go of concerns about the good or bad aspect of things we do, but I agree w/ Nisargadatta Maharaj's idea that if you worry about the moral implications of what you have done & or will do, you will never find peace. So I go along w/ wuwei or the idea that since I can't possibly foresee how my actions will ultimately effect the world, then I try not to be attached to the outcome being what I intended. Look at the thousands of Chinese murdered & imprisoned for refusing to give up practicing Falun Dafa; I'm sure Li Hongzhi never intended for that to happen. I also think if you listen to that voice inside, the Witness or Watcher, it will steer you the right way every time if you bother to pay attention.
I couldn't begin to agree more w/ Isaac's sense of upheaval after the Capitol Siege. What is utterly dismaying if not surprising is the GOP scum who will not face the fact that the ex-prez must face severe consequences for his sedition & treason or we will invite more in the future. trump even calls the second impeachment a "witch hunt." I think his choice of words says it all: he knows he's wrong & he's knows he's aligned w/ the depraved forces, so we're on a "witch hunt" to remove his negative influence from our midst as best we can; we just can't burn him at the stake the way good Christians did regularly & often during the Middle Ages.
 
#5
nice! New to me, and very interesting.

I think this is the kind of stuff I've been trying to get with you why evil matters... I mean, it seems to me that we can't even begin to process these huge problems with these bad actors until weekend begin to come to grips with some of these kinds of issues

it also seems to me that our inability to deal with "spirituality " and the reality of extended consciousness ads to the problem
I'm glad you brought up the mask issue in the pandemic. Early on, first I heard masks were really intended to keep infected people from spreading it around, then it became an issue that everyone's best protection was mask-wearing, but few people seemed to know how to wear them or did wear or use them properly. It's really kind of like carrying some talisman in your pocket hoping it will protect you. I still avoid crowded places & wear a mask if I must be in one, though.
 

Alex

Administrator
#6
I still haven't developed my intuition enough to be completely comfortable w/ letting go of concerns about the good or bad aspect of things we do, but I agree w/ Nisargadatta Maharaj's idea that if you worry about the moral implications of what you have done & or will do, you will never find peace. So I go along w/ wuwei or the idea that since I can't possibly foresee how my actions will ultimately effect the world, then I try not to be attached to the outcome being what I intended. Look at the thousands of Chinese murdered & imprisoned for refusing to give up practicing Falun Dafa; I'm sure Li Hongzhi never intended for that to happen. I also think if you listen to that voice inside, the Witness or Watcher, it will steer you the right way every time if you bother to pay attention.
I couldn't begin to agree more w/ Isaac's sense of upheaval after the Capitol Siege. What is utterly dismaying if not surprising is the GOP scum who will not face the fact that the ex-prez must face severe consequences for his sedition & treason or we will invite more in the future. trump even calls the second impeachment a "witch hunt." I think his choice of words says it all: he knows he's wrong & he's knows he's aligned w/ the depraved forces, so we're on a "witch hunt" to remove his negative influence from our midst as best we can; we just can't burn him at the stake the way good Christians did regularly & often during the Middle Ages.
how interesting... all new to me... looks like a cult... then again, our comrades overloads in china know how to deal with that:

What is Falun Gong harvesting?
Falun Gong practitioners who were imprisoned in China's detention centres and labour camps report undergoing unexplained medical examinations and blood tests as a precursor to live organ harvesting; while doctors who were involved in the practice report of basements filled with live prisoners whose organs were ...Jan 29, 2020
 
#7
I couldn't begin to agree more w/ Isaac's sense of upheaval after the Capitol Siege.
I was surprised Issac was so upset by the goofy little kerfuffle at the Capitol.

Then I realized he doesn't actually study things. I listened to three episodes of his podcast. It's grug-tier Vigilant Citizen level newbie stuff.

He lists the Conspiracy fads of the week, then says "Is it true? I dunno".

Gee. Thanks for wasting my time. That's useless Conspiritainment schlock which 20 other people do better.
 
#9
The Illuminati... Well, this may sound simplistic but does any human being have a right on Earth to control another person who is free under God unless he has employed such person and provides a wage in exchange for service? All else violates our Constitution and also our God. Our right to be free individuals on this Earth predates the Illuminati and all controllers prior. what Mr Trump attempted to do for America may be something we will all need to revisit depending on our grasp of events and procedures forthcoming... but hopefully not. Meanwhile, let us not give up our guns if we have such.
 
#10
What a joy to have experienced this... a glimpse of the deepest, realest Alex (he really exposes himself in the last few minutes) within the framework of an interview of a true "Good Guy," Isaac Weishaupt.
 
#12
how interesting... all new to me... looks like a cult... then again, our comrades overloads in china know how to deal with that:

What is Falun Gong harvesting?
Falun Gong practitioners who were imprisoned in China's detention centres and labour camps report undergoing unexplained medical examinations and blood tests as a precursor to live organ harvesting; while doctors who were involved in the practice report of basements filled with live prisoners whose organs were ...Jan 29, 2020
I see the good ole CCP is continuing its championing of the Dark Side's total disregard for human life. The last thing I read in detail about deaths of Falun Dafa practitioners was a list of 5,000 confirmed, documented victims. I'm sure there's considerably more b/c they continue to detain them w/o trial & subject them to torture (a favorite method is locking them in a cage that doesn't allow you to stand up above a squat or lie down full length).
The suppression of Falun Dafa is completely a case of jealousy & paranoia. It was originally encouraged by the authorities b/c it led people to get outside & exercise, but when participation passed 10 million citizens, the CCP cracked down on it.
While I was attending their study sessions (we'd meet somewhere & take turns reading Falun Zhuan chapters & ask questions) & practicing the exercises in the park w/ them, I brought cookies & tea once. They were quite adamant about not being able to accept the snack stuff; they appreciated my offer, but said the CCP launched a major campaign to discredit Master Li & his teachings as a cult. Therefore, any kind of contribution was discouraged. I noticed the Falun Dafa website will accept them now, but I imagine there is careful accounting of where the money goes.
The grad student who led the early morning park exercises mother was imprisoned in China for refusing to stop her spiritual practices. She was motivated to do so much promoting of Falun Dafa b/c she seemed to believe this would somehow get her mom released sooner. I found this belief hard to explain b/c Li makes the point often that even Buddha doesn't grant wishes. Maybe she was hoping to increase her virtue & good karma.
 

Alex

Administrator
#13
I see the good ole CCP is continuing its championing of the Dark Side's total disregard for human life. The last thing I read in detail about deaths of Falun Dafa practitioners was a list of 5,000 confirmed, documented victims. I'm sure there's considerably more b/c they continue to detain them w/o trial & subject them to torture (a favorite method is locking them in a cage that doesn't allow you to stand up above a squat or lie down full length).
The suppression of Falun Dafa is completely a case of jealousy & paranoia. It was originally encouraged by the authorities b/c it led people to get outside & exercise, but when participation passed 10 million citizens, the CCP cracked down on it.
While I was attending their study sessions (we'd meet somewhere & take turns reading Falun Zhuan chapters & ask questions) & practicing the exercises in the park w/ them, I brought cookies & tea once. They were quite adamant about not being able to accept the snack stuff; they appreciated my offer, but said the CCP launched a major campaign to discredit Master Li & his teachings as a cult. Therefore, any kind of contribution was discouraged. I noticed the Falun Dafa website will accept them now, but I imagine there is careful accounting of where the money goes.
The grad student who led the early morning park exercises mother was imprisoned in China for refusing to stop her spiritual practices. She was motivated to do so much promoting of Falun Dafa b/c she seemed to believe this would somehow get her mom released sooner. I found this belief hard to explain b/c Li makes the point often that even Buddha doesn't grant wishes. Maybe she was hoping to increase her virtue & good karma.
interesting. thanks for sharing this. I struggle with trying to understand the darkside / luciferian / satanic part of the commie agenda.

although it does seem to be a perfect fit for the "consciousness is an illusion in your biological robot" meme
 
#16
interesting. thanks for sharing this. I struggle with trying to understand the darkside / luciferian / satanic part of the commie agenda.

although it does seem to be a perfect fit for the "consciousness is an illusion in your biological robot" meme
I think you're so right about the CCP's need for an atheistic society; it fits totally w/ their desire for their people to see it as their father & mother, a life long source of purpose & direction. What better way to enslave people than to convince them that they were born to serve the state & there is no meaningful existence beyond that.
While I taught English there, I did a unit on psychology & of course when I asked my students where our self or consciousness resided, they said the brain. They were generally very superstitious (there was a door banging in the wind somewhere in our apartment building & most of the people believed that it was a ghost. We raised hell until someone finally checked enough rooms to find the door making all the noise) while being anti-spiritual which they seemed to toss in automatically w/ religion.
 
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