It's possible for people to change their patterns of thinking on their own, at least in the earlies

S

Sciborg_S_Patel

It's possible for people to change their patterns of thinking on their own, at least in the earliest stages of depression.

Depression is classified as a mood disorder, but which came first: the disorder or the distressed mood? Conversely, if depression results in negative thoughts and emotions, can changing those thoughts and emotions alleviate depression?

“To some extent, the answer is yes,” says Dr. Ken Duckworth, assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard University Medical School and medical director for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, or NAMI.

Changing thought patterns is a primary goal of psychotherapy. One theory of depression known as the cognitive triad hypothesizes that negative views of oneself, the world at large and the future can be linked in a self-perpetuating cycle. Depressed individuals see themselves as helpless and worthless, and they also see the world as an especially negative and hopeless place. Therefore, they view their future as equally hopeless and impossible to improve.

“If someone has a lot of negative expectations, there is a belief that things can’t work,” says Arthur Nezu, professor of psychology at Drexel University. On the other hand, someone who believes that problems are a normal part of life is better able deal with them. “How we view ourselves affects our ability to have an impact on world,” Nezu says.
 
"“To some extent, the answer is yes"

How much is "some"?

I think you have to consider the cause of depression. It is not always realistic to think you can change biochemistry by changing thinking. If there is a biological disorder that affects brain chemistry causing the depression, it might be as useful to use psychotherapy to treat depression as it is useful to use psychotherapy to treat baldness. It might help you cope but it is unlikely to really cure it.

I think it is harmful, hurtful, to blame people who suffer from biological disorders by telling them it's their fault they are suffering because they are stupid (not thinking correctly).
 
I think you have to consider the cause of depression. It is not always realistic to think you can change biochemistry by changing thinking. If there is a biological disorder that affects brain chemistry causing the depression, it might be as useful to use psychotherapy to treat depression as it is useful to use psychotherapy to treat baldness. It might help you cope but it is unlikely to really cure it.

I think it is harmful, hurtful, to blame people who suffer from biological disorders by telling them it's their fault they are suffering because they are stupid (not thinking correctly).

If you tell someone who is suffering from scurvy that they need more vitamin c, I don't think you are blaming them for stupidity.

People like simple narratives like "brain chemistry" or "blank slate" or "parents fault".

Some in psychiatry and psychology add to confusion by treating mental illness as the same as something more clearly organic like an infection or a virus.

Depression can cover a wide range of experiences. In some cases changes in diet and exercise are sufficient. In other cases may be repressed grief. In other cases maybe the depression is from introverted anger. In other cases may be a form of learned helplessness. Other forms of depression may be spirit loss, obsession or possession by discarnates. In other cases it may be part of the slough of despond.

There was a lot of optimism about SSRIs, but I don't think current rates of depression demonstrate that prozac-like medications are the cure.

It is clear that a wide variety of chemicals can alter consciousness, but it is by no means clear to me that chemical imbalance is the cause of most mental illnesses.
 
Why does it have to be brain chemistry or mood? Maybe it's actually events that cause depression? Perhaps it's the way humanity has turned life into a complicated and difficult to deal with set of silly rules that maybe many can live with but many can't. Maybe the cure isn't for the "depressive" to change, but for everybody else to change? On what criteria do we consider depression an illness rather than an understandable and natural reaction to bad circumstances?
 
Why does it have to be brain chemistry or mood? Maybe it's actually events that cause depression? Perhaps it's the way humanity has turned life into a complicated and difficult to deal with set of silly rules that maybe many can live with but many can't. Maybe the cure isn't for the "depressive" to change, but for everybody else to change? On what criteria do we consider depression an illness rather than an understandable and natural reaction to bad circumstances?
Indeed, I struggled with a deep, intense depression in young adulthood, but was deeply wary and suspicious of any drug-based intervention. Perhaps it was the influence of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", I'd seen the film and read the book, it was one factor among others which meant looking for a solution elsewhere.

As a result, over a period of time, my situation got worse. Eventually, when there was nowhere else left to go, as an atheist/agnostic I tried prayer. To my astonishment the darkness lifted.

I don't say this as a trite or simplistic cure for all ills, it was a response to a specific situation I found myself in at a particular point in time.
 
Depression can cover a wide range of experiences. In some cases changes in diet and exercise are sufficient. In other cases may be repressed grief. In other cases maybe the depression is from introverted anger. In other cases may be a form of learned helplessness. Other forms of depression may be spirit loss, obsession or possession by discarnates. In other cases it may be part of the slough of despond.

But, in some cases, it likely is brain chemistry? And for some anti-depressants do seem to work?
 
But, in some cases, it likely is brain chemistry? And for some anti-depressants do seem to work?
What is the meaning of the phrase "do seem to work"? I must admit to being pretty much opposed to the use of drugs for ordinary medical conditions too - at least for myself - I'm not speaking of what is appropriate for anyone else. It's just that I have a feeling that too often drugs are used to treat symptoms. In that sense they both do and don't work. Symptoms may reduce, but the underlying condition is still there, unchanged. I've found attempting to speak to doctors about tackling underlying causes of a condition a pretty thankless task, the system is geared towards handing out pills for every occasion, rather than solving a problem it is preferred to allow it to remain, but just disguise it a little instead.
 
What is the meaning of the phrase "do seem to work"? I must admit to being pretty much opposed to the use of drugs for ordinary medical conditions too - at least for myself - I'm not speaking of what is appropriate for anyone else. It's just that I have a feeling that too often drugs are used to treat symptoms. In that sense they both do and don't work. Symptoms may reduce, but the underlying condition is still there, unchanged. I've found attempting to speak to doctors about tackling underlying causes of a condition a pretty thankless task, the system is geared towards handing out pills for every occasion, rather than solving a problem it is preferred to allow it to remain, but just disguise it a little instead.

Well if we're going to take the subjective experience seriously there are people who feel that anti-depressants saved their life.

I don't disagree that maybe there's some underlying cause besides chemicals but whether that's true in every case remains to be seen.

I also think we should be looking at expanding treatment options that are spiritual or magic(k) in some way, though what treatments should be under insurance is a more complicated question.
 
Well if we're going to take the subjective experience seriously there are people who feel that anti-depressants saved their life.
No doubt. I also probably have to say that drugs may have saved my life too - but it still leaves an unsatisfactory situation. I'm not advocating new-agey or alternative treatments as such. However I'm pretty sure there's more money to be made from generous and frequent prescribing of drugs than from finding a solution which would remove the necessity for drugs - for many conditions, I'm not referring to a specific problem here.
 
No doubt. I also probably have to say that drugs may have saved my life too - but it still leaves an unsatisfactory situation. I'm not advocating new-agey or alternative treatments as such. However I'm pretty sure there's more money to be made from generous and frequent prescribing of drugs than from finding a solution which would remove the necessity for drugs - for many conditions, I'm not referring to a specific problem here.

Yeah I believe we're in the same position on this - how do we make available alternative treatment while acknowledging the risk involved?

Why I advise people to pray, use magic, etc so long as they are properly evaluating risk and not ignoring conventional treatment options. Of course real freedom is the freedom to make mistakes, even with regards to personal health, but at the same time there's a need for genuine critical thinking (as opposed to "skeptic" in-group selection).
 
But, in some cases, it likely is brain chemistry?
chemical imbalance may be sign of materialistic metaphysics. It may also be marketing hype from big pharma. There are quite a few chemicals that can make me feel better but I don't believe they are curing anything.

And for some anti-depressants do seem to work?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/feb/26/mentalhealth.medicalresearch
Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.

I know a number of users of various anti-depressant medications who felt initial benefit and longer term preferred not to take them.

The dj saved my life.
 
So the use of chemicals labours under the materialist paradigm... unless the chemical is DMT?
 
But, in some cases, it likely is brain chemistry? And for some anti-depressants do seem to work?
I think anti depressants give you a cushion until you have worked out a way around things but there are cases where people live on them for life because they cure nothing on their own. I had a bad time on fluoxetine but citalopram was a real saviour, but only while I used counselling, therapeutic voluntary work and anti-stress courses. The drug didn't cure me, the hope for a worthwhile future did!
 
I think anti depressants give you a cushion until you have worked out a way around things but there are cases where people live on them for life because they cure nothing on their own. I had a bad time on fluoxetine but citalopram was a real saviour, but only while I used counselling, therapeutic voluntary work and anti-stress courses. The drug didn't cure me, the hope for a worthwhile future did!

Sure, I do think there should be some additional therapy besides just anti-depressants. But I think each person is a case unto themselves with this stuff, so unless there is a probability of harm in what they are & aren't taking I don't want to interfere with someone's chosen treatment be that medication, prayer, magic(k), etc.
 
Sure, I do think there should be some additional therapy besides just anti-depressants. But I think each person is a case unto themselves with this stuff, so unless there is a probability of harm in what they are & aren't taking I don't want to interfere with someone's chosen treatment be that medication, prayer, magic(k), etc.
Excellent point.
 
chemical imbalance may be sign of materialistic metaphysics. It may also be marketing hype from big pharma. There are quite a few chemicals that can make me feel better but I don't believe they are curing anything.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/feb/26/mentalhealth.medicalresearch

I know a number of users of various anti-depressant medications who felt initial benefit and longer term preferred not to take them.

The dj saved my life.

My issue with studies is they give us a final aggregate consideration, unless they are showing how a chemical has no efficacy on human biology. Yet even in the latter case a placebo is a talisman in some sense - it does the "magick" if the person feels better and there are no dangerous side effects?

That said I do think we need to go beyond materialist ideas of the mind/body when trying to help people. To what degree such a cornucopia of treatments - many just snake oil - should be covered by insurance is another matter...
 
Back
Top