Jan Irvin of Gnostic Media and Holocaust Denial

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#1
seems like I opened a can of worms here, so I'm creating a new thread. here's how the conversation started:

Jan Irvin over at Gnostic Media uses this connection mapping software to assist his research into Deep State social engineering.
love the graphic, but not the source... Jan's pretty deep into the Holocaust denial thing... strange.
 
#3
I have listened to all of Jan's podcasts and never heard him deny the Holocaust.
I had a phone conversation with him followed by a lengthy email exchange in preparation for a potential interview. I'll share on excerpt from Jan:
"In fact, though, those who make the claim of the grand plan of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews – the onus of proof is on them – you to back it with primary documentation. That claim has never been substantiated through actual documents."

I responded with the following:
The reason I referenced WANNSEE is because, more than anything else, this gets to the heart of the issue... did the Nazi plan and partially implement a system for the deliberate, physical annihilation of the European Jews? I looked through your attached docs (and elsewhere) and I don't see where any credible researchers are even trying to refute this (pls give me specific references if I am wrong). Moreover, here's a transcript of Eichmann's testimony in Jerusalem regarding Wannsee:
http://www.ghwk.de/engl/texts/eichmanns-testimony.pdf

So, given the Nazi's were trying to kill all the Jews in Europe (a horrible deed), it just doesn't seem to matter a whole heck of a lot as to whether they killed 6M or 3M... they sure as heck were trying their best, right up to the end, to follow-through with their "Final Solution."


Of course, he got really pissed off and broke off communication.
 
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#4
So, given the Nazi's were...
I must agree with Jan that the onus of proof rests upon the person making an assertion.

Your characterization of him as a “Holocaust Denier” for simply questioning the historical veracity of certain aspects of the official World War Two historical narrative seems unfair to me.
 
#5
I must agree with Jan that the onus of proof rests upon the person making an assertion.

Your characterization of him as a “Holocaust Denier” for simply questioning the historical veracity of certain aspects of the official World War Two historical narrative seems unfair to me.
I don't think you're getting the gist of our conversation. I mean, he told me about, and then later send me, all this stuff/research from these Holocaust deniers and he was very, very supportive of all of it.

And again, pls read and respond to the excerpt from the above email:
"..those who make the claim of the grand plan of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews."

So, I'm not just throwing a label around here... I mean, he's clearing saying that the Nazi's didn't plan to exterminate the European Jews... and of course, this is a provable false/ridiculous claim. So, when I called him on this he didn't say, "oh yeah, well of course we all know the Nazis were trying to kill all the Jews" he scolded me for not fully absorbing all the "research" he had sent me.

Question... do you think the claim of a "grand plan by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews" is an unproven historical fact?
 
#6
So, given the Nazi's were trying to kill all the Jews in Europe (a horrible deed), it just doesn't seem to matter a whole heck of a lot as to whether they killed 6M or 3M... they sure as heck were trying there best, right up to the end, to follow-through with their "Final Solution."
Yes - I think this is the point about such people - the number can only ever be approximate, so what does it matter - they were trying to exterminate the Jews.

David
 
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#7
Questioning anything about the holocaust is pretty much a cardinal sin generating an instant programmed emotional response of antipathy towards the questioner followed by the label "denier". The way "denier" has become a pejorative on par with Peter denying Christ is interesting... but staying on topic...

After doing a little research myself, I came to the conclusion that the holocaust is (like most things in history) a caricatured one-sided half-true version of events.

I do think there is ample evidence that Darwinism (and materialism) provided the intellectual justification for eugenics - governmental policies that included forced sterilization, forced abortion, and mal-treatment of minorities that were viewed as subhuman. America Pioneered these eugenics projects and Hitler and Britain admired the works we did over here and modeled similar policies off of them. Hitler and the Nazis using the chaos and fear of war as cover, took it a step further with mass imprisonment and then execution.

So yes, I do think there is enough evidence to say that many Jews (and many other groups) were enslaved and executed by the Nazis (even more by the Bolsheviks).

The part that we aren't told is that elite international Jews (of the George Soros ilk) were largely responsible for Germany's defeat in WWI as well as the harsh terms of the treaty of Versailles which led to 15 years or so of terrible economic depression in Germany. And just when Germany started to throw off the shackles and pull itself up by its boot straps, international Jewery declared war on Germany in 1933 and placed a boycott on German goods.

So it is not hard to see why Hitler and the German people would target Jews as it seems that the elite Zionist Jews started it. (Obviously not the average ordinary German Jewish citizens who became scapegoats - the "burnt offering", the "holocaust", which resulted in the political capital to attain the Zionist goal of the state of Israel)

For years and I think even decades before there ever was a pogrom or a prison camp in Germany, the Zionist controlled press in America was putting out reports of "6 million Jews in danger" "6 million Jews killed" "6 million... 6 million..." Hitler was being demonized the instant he attained any power. Was this the result of impeccable foresight on the part of observers, or was it the fact that he was a populist taking the Zionist boot off the German people's back that made him an instant target of Zionist controlled press demonization campaigns much the same as we see today with Trump and Putin.

In fact I wonder: if we didn't have the internet, would CNN and the like already be attributing mass genocide to Trump at this point, and would we really be able to prove he didn't do it?

They do this to every head of state that they want to take down: demonize them, claim they're killing their own people, using WMDs, etc.

We've had a fake news media for a very long time. As William Randolph Hearst said in 1897, "You supply the pictures; I'll supply the war."

So yeah I think a holocaust a.k.a. burnt offering really happened but I think the 6 million number was made up long before there ever was a holocaust and that the holocaust was sort of engineered by elite psychopathic Zionist Jews in order to get the state of Israel established.

I don't think Hitler started out as a monster except for the fact that he was a narcissist and influenced by scientific materialism. And perhaps his drive for power led him to explore the dark side of deeper occult powers. I think he before he became a monster he was first made a monster by the press and then actually became a monster due to a combination of revenge and pseudo-science called eugenics. Reasonable people can reason their way into absurdly horrifying positions - especially if anger and fear are involved.
 
#8
Questioning anything about the holocaust is pretty much a cardinal sin generating an instant programmed emotional response of antipathy towards the questioner followed by the label "denier". The way "denier" has become a pejorative on par with Peter denying Christ is interesting... but staying on topic...
I get this... and think it's very much on topic. and it's not at all my position. I have no problem examining real research into WWII, the Hollocust, Pizzagate pedophiles or anyhting else. And I'm not a big fan of the Zionists and the Mosad, but that's off topic :)

I do think there is ample evidence that Darwinism (and materialism) provided the intellectual justification for eugenics - governmental policies that included forced sterilization, forced abortion, and mal-treatment of minorities that were viewed as subhuman. America Pioneered these eugenics projects and Hitler and Britain admired the works we did over here and modeled similar policies off of them. Hitler and the Nazis using the chaos and fear of war as cover, took it a step further with mass imprisonment and then execution.
ok, sure...

So yes, I do think there is enough evidence to say that many Jews (and many other groups) were enslaved and executed by the Nazis (even more by the Bolsheviks).
I don't agree... and this was the point of contention with Jan Irwin. Here's the historical record as I understand it:
At some still undetermined time in 1941, Hitler authorized this European-wide scheme for mass murder. Heydrich convened the Wannsee Conference (1) to inform and secure support from government ministries and other interested agencies relevant to the implementation of the “Final Solution,” and (2) to disclose to the participants that Hitler himself had tasked Heydrich and the RSHA with coordinating the operation. The men at the table did not deliberate whether such a plan should be undertaken, but instead discussed the implementation of a policy decision that had already been made at the highest level of the Nazi regime.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005477

So, this seems to me to be the key issue with regard to the "final solution."


So yeah I think a holocaust a.k.a. burnt offering really happened but I think the 6 million number was made up long before there ever was a holocaust and that the holocaust was sort of engineered by elite psychopathic Zionist Jews in order to get the state of Israel established.
I don't really know where you're coming from here???

I don't think Hitler started out as a monster except for the fact that he was a narcissist and influenced by scientific materialism. And perhaps his drive for power led him to explore the dark side of deeper occult powers. I think he before he became a monster he was first made a monster by the press and then actually became a monster due to a combination of revenge and pseudo-science called eugenics. Reasonable people can reason their way into absurdly horrifying positions - especially if anger and fear are involved.
I watched quite a few bio pics on Hitler (mainly because my wife can't get enough of them)... I never came away with that impression.
 
#9
I don't agree... and this was the point of contention with Jan Irwin. Here's the historical record as I understand it:
At some still undetermined time in 1941, Hitler authorized this European-wide scheme for mass murder. Heydrich convened the Wannsee Conference (1) to inform and secure support from government ministries and other interested agencies relevant to the implementation of the “Final Solution,” and (2) to disclose to the participants that Hitler himself had tasked Heydrich and the RSHA with coordinating the operation. The men at the table did not deliberate whether such a plan should be undertaken, but instead discussed the implementation of a policy decision that had already been made at the highest level of the Nazi regime.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005477

So, this seems to me to be the key issue with regard to the "final solution."
I'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with me on? What you posted I agree with. There was a "Final Solution" policy implemented.

I don't really know where you're coming from here???
The 6 million figure is cast in to doubt because there were reports of 6 million Jews killed or in danger of being killed going back all the way to the late 1800s I believe although I don't have time to find links now.

The Jewish Zionist elite tried to use WWI to get their state. When it looked like Germany had won and Germans were offering generous terms of peace, the zionists brought the US into the war with the Lusitania which was kind of a false flag. So the war dragged on and Germany was severely punished. In exchange for bringing the US into the war they got Britain to sign the Balfour declaration promising the Zionist state.


I watched quite a few bio pics on Hitler (mainly because my wife can't get enough of them)... I never came away with that impression.
I have the impression that he was not a coward, and generally genuinely cared about the German people and instituted policies that genuinely and significantly improved life for the average German. Perhaps that impression is wrong?
 
#10
I hope I don't come off as a Hitler/Nazi apologist because I certainly find brutality of any person or group to be deplorable.

I just think we're missing a huge piece of history if we fail to see that Germany was pushed into a monstrous position by a deceptive globalist elite that controlled the American press and big banks... same exact situation we're in today. So the people who think Trump is like Hitler kind of have a point: he's trying to throw off a globalist elite and restore dignity and prosperity to the people while the elite is demonizing him with lies and half truths.

That's where the similarity ends. Trump has no eugenics ideals or ambitions. And America would (hopefully) never tolerate a complete regression into a dictatorship. Trump is also a conservative builder and is much closer to structure whereas Hitler was an artist and socialist.
 
#11
I hope I don't come off as a Hitler/Nazi apologist because I certainly find brutality of any person or group to be deplorable.
I get yr point re the uber-Zionist influence and the connected craziness. I went looking for the famous "dustbin of history" quote that I heard was spoken by one on Israel's founders about the Jews who died during the war. I don't know if you or anyone else has a link to this, but it's pretty chilling... and lends support to the idea that the Jewish people we politically fractured (like every other group) and that there were zealots that only cared about getting their state at any and all costs.

I just think we're missing a huge piece of history if we fail to see that Germany was pushed into a monstrous position by a deceptive globalist elite that controlled the American press and big banks
I accept that there were/are all these deceptive, ruthless, evil forces at play outside of Germany... but I think you're letting Hitler and his psychopathic hooligans off easy.

I guess my larger point (and one that I think we're probably closer to agreement on) is that if one is gonna say something as outrageous as: "..those who make the claim of the grand plan of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews" you better be prepared to back it up.
 
#12
the holocaust was sort of engineered by elite psychopathic Zionist Jews in order to get the state of Israel established.
I hope I don't come off as a Hitler/Nazi apologist because I certainly find brutality of any person or group to be deplorable.
I don't see how you can get out of being an apologist for Hitler if you say Jews engineered the holocaust.

It is also deplorable to place blame for murder, rape, and torture where it doesn't belong because it can lead to repercussions that are not deserved. Falsely blaming Jews for atrocities they never committed has been used to arouse antisemitism throughout history and it is deplorable that it is now happening in this forum.
 
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#13
I get yr point re the uber-Zionist influence and the connected craziness. I went looking for the famous "dustbin of history" quote that I heard was spoken by one on Israel's founders about the Jews who died during the war. I don't know if you or anyone else has a link to this, but it's pretty chilling... and lends support to the idea that the Jewish people we politically fractured (like every other group) and that there were zealots that only cared about getting their state at any and all costs.


I accept that there were/are all these deceptive, ruthless, evil forces at play outside of Germany... but I think you're letting Hitler and his psychopathic hooligans off easy.

I guess my larger point (and one that I think we're probably closer to agreement on) is that if one is gonna say something as outrageous as: "..those who make the claim of the grand plan of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews" you better be prepared to back it up.

Is this the same Wannsee document? http://holocaust.umd.umich.edu/news/uploads/WanseeProtocols.pdf

There are only references to Emigration here, I've just read through the entire thing
 
#14
I don't see how you can get out of being an apologist for Hitler if you say Jews engineered the holocaust.

It is also deplorable to place blame for murder, rape, and torture where it doesn't belong because it can lead to repercussions that are not deserved. Falsely blaming Jews for atrocities they never committed has been used to arouse antisemitism throughout history and it is deplorable that it is now happening in this forum.
I'm not putting blame on common Jews for anything. I'm saying that anti-Jewish sentiment didn't come out of the clear blue. There are underlying reasons - the result of actions of some Jews and of some racism present in Jewish culture. There are a confluence of factors that make Jews more likely to rise to positions of power and there is an ideology that Jews should rule the world. I don't know what the solution is, but obviously, "The Final Solution" is completely the wrong one.

I really don't have time to debate this; not sure why I'm interjecting myself except that I find this topic interesting - possibly because it is such a forbidden controversial topic (like all conspiracy theories to which I am drawn). Partly because my own Father has converted to Judaism from Christianity (which is fine with me).

But it is so fraught with emotion, I feel like the chances of us getting anywhere on the topic are low and I don't have time to pull all the sources. So I'll just back out for now.
 
#16
So, I'm not just throwing a label around here...
Thank you Alex. I understand you better now.

Our point of contention is how the label “Holocaust Denier” should be applied.

I call “Holocaust Deniers” those wrong-headed people who claim that National Socialist Germany systematically killed NO Jews just because they were Jews.

Those people claim all the Jews killed by the German State were killed because they were Communists, petty criminals, or war-time resistance operatives.

People who claim that are wrong. Some German Government Officials DID murder Jews simply because they were Jews.

You use the “Holocaust Denier” label far more broadly. You apply that label anyone who questions whether killing Jews just for being Jews was an official government policy, and/or anyone who questions the veracity of the 6 million number. I do not.

I concede that, by your standard, Jan is a “Holocaust Denier” because I have seen Jan question both the above things.
 
#18
Thank you Alex. I understand you better now.

Our point of contention is how the label “Holocaust Denier” should be applied.

I call “Holocaust Deniers” those wrong-headed people who claim that National Socialist Germany systematically killed NO Jews just because they were Jews.

Those people claim all the Jews killed by the German State were killed because they were Communists, petty criminals, or war-time resistance operatives.

People who claim that are wrong. Some German Government Officials DID murder Jews simply because they were Jews.

You use the “Holocaust Denier” label far more broadly. You apply that label anyone who questions whether killing Jews just for being Jews was an official government policy, and/or anyone who questions the veracity of the 6 million number. I do not.

I concede that, by your standard, Jan is a “Holocaust Denier” because I have seen Jan question both the above things.
I get yr point re “Holocaust Denier” it's sometimes absurdly applied to anyone who isn't pro-Israel... and then stretched to every super-charged emotional issue culture-makers dream of. I love/hate/find-hilarious the latest incarnation "Climate Denier." It's the perfect extension of a ridiculous meme. On the other hand, I sometimes feel like the best counter-measure is to totally embrace the use of the label as a way to take away its power. So, call me a climate-denier, a science-denier, or whatever-else denier and see if you can make it stick. And, I'm gonna do the same to Jan Irwin... because that's what everyone's thinking anyway.

I'm glad we wound up having this dialog. I feel encouraged when I find folks who can come together and have an intelligent discussion on these really tough issues that most people never touch.
 
#19
The Nazi's did not want to exterminate all Jews because a few were bankers. They wanted to exterminate them because of their race. In the long bloody history of Europe, Jews never had an army there. Over the centuries, innumerable Germans were killed by Russian and French soldiers, but the Nazi's did not single out those nationalities for extermination. Those who are looking for extenuating circumstances or provocation to explain the holocaust are ignoring the fact that primary motivation was racism, all the other explanations are rationalizations - attempts to justify something that cannot be justified.
 
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#20
The Nazi's did not want to exterminate all Jews because a few were bankers.
That's a bit of a straw man...

They wanted to exterminate them because of their race. In the long bloody history of Europe, Jews never had an army there. Over the centuries, innumerable Germans were killed by Russian and French soldiers, but the Nazi's did not single those nationalities out for extermination. Those who are looking for extenuating circumstances or provocation to explain the holocaust are ignoring the fact that primary motivation was racism, all the other explanations are rationalizations - attempts to justify something that cannot be justified.
Racism is a base tribal impulse that is often justified and excused through some type of rationalization. Hitler's rationalization was the idea that Jews were the head of a global conspiracy to rule the planet and kill off the Goyim or make them subservient. Whether you believe that is true or not; that's what Hitler and the Nazi's believed. They believed Jews like Trotsky led the Bolshevik revolution to overthrow the Orthodox Christian Russian government and culture and believed the same fate was planned for Germany. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which is now widely believed to be a hoax) was thought to be a primary source document detailing the devilish nihilistic Jewish Globalist conspiracy. Jews had already "declared war" on Germany in 1933 and had instituted an international boycott of German goods.

To what extent any of that is true, I'm not prepared right now to debate because I haven't researched enough to come to any firm conclusions. I'll just leave you with this Rabbi who claims that Hitler hated the Jews because of what they did to Christian Russia.

And this former Jew turned Orthodox Christian who says Jews are steeped in racism in their culture and look down on the Goy.

In March 1933 International Jews "declared war" on Germany and launched an international boycott on German goods. In response, on April 1, Germany declared a temporary boycott on Jewish businesses in Germany and this is part of Hitler's speech when that occurred... the echos with the present time are striking.
Now that the domestic enemies of the nation have been eliminated by the Volk itself, what we have long been waiting for will now come to pass. The Communist and Marxist criminals and their Jewish intellectual instigators, who, having made off with their capital stocks across the border in the nick of time, are now unfolding an unscrupulous, treasonous campaign of agitation against the German Volk as a whole from abroad. Because it became impossible for them to continue lying in Germany, they have begun, in the capitals of the former Entente, to continue the same agitation against the young national uprising that they had already pursued at the outbreak of the War against the Germany of that time.

Lies and slander of positively hair-raising perversity are being launched about Germany. Horror stories of dismembered Jewish corpses, gouged-out eyes, and hacked-off hands are circulated for the purpose of defaming the German Volk in the world for a second time, just as they had succeeded in doing once before in 1914. The animosity of millions of innocent human beings, i.e., peoples with whom the German Volk wishes only to live in peace, is being stirred up by these unscrupulous criminals. They want German goods and German labor to fall victim to the international boycott. It seems they think the misery in Germany is not bad enough as it is; they have to make it worse!

They lie about Jewish females who have supposedly been killed, about Jewish girls allegedly being raped before the eyes of their parents, about cemeteries being ravaged! The whole thing is one big lie invented for the sole purpose of provoking a new world-war agitation!

Standing by and watching this lunatic crime any longer would mean being implicated.

The National Socialist Party will therefore now take defensive action against this universal crime with means that are capable of striking a blow to the guilty parties.

For the guilty ones are among us, they live in our midst and day after day misuse the right to hospitality which the German Volk has granted them.

At a time when millions of our people have nothing to live on and nothing to eat, while hundreds of thousands of German brain-workers degenerate on the streets, these intellectual Jewish men of letters are sitting in our midst and have no qualms about claiming the right to our hospitality.

What would America do were the Germans in America to commit a sin against America like the one these Jews have committed against Germany? The National Revolution did not harm a hair of their heads. They were allowed to go about their business as before; but, mind you, corruption will be exterminated, regardless of who commits it. Just as belonging to a Christian confession or our own Volk does not constitute a license for criminals, neither does belonging to the Jewish race or the Mosaic religion.

For decades, Germany indiscriminately allowed all aliens to enter the country. There are 135 people to one square kilometer of land in this country.

In America there are less than 15. In spite of this fact, America saw it fit to set quotas for immigration and even exclude certain peoples from immigrating.
 
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