Jay Dyer, What’s the Endgame for Atheists? |352|

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Sciborg_S_Patel

Puberty actually mean ability to reproduce, not the ability to respond to sexual stimuli. The latter is present in prepubescent children as well, as was shown many times since Alfred Kinsey.
The stimuli response may be there but the idea it is sexual seems more like interpretation.

I think this is beyond the scope of the forum, as we'd have to discuss masturbation which I think gets us outside the forum's Code of Conduct, so I'll just note that adults have recounted their own stimulus response and how it changed from non-sexual to sexual after puberty.

But regardless I think just feelings of pleasure isn't enough to give consent. I mean are we gonna say giving children weed, crack, etc is acceptable if they get pleasure out of it?
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

How can children consent to be sterilized and socially transitioned before hitting puberty?
Isn't this why parents have to give consent for medical procedures? Though I'd agree we should be very hesitant about such prescriptions, only using them as a last treatment resort if at all.
 
Isn't this why parents have to give consent for medical procedures? Though I'd agree we should be very hesitant about such prescriptions, only using them as a last treatment resort if at all.
Yes, of course. The parents. Because four year olds totes know their so-called "gender identity," and, well, of course, parents would never, ever do something like hint about it. Or treat their "girly" boy as a boy, but maybe they would tell him he might "really" be a girl? Have you looked into parents who hog the limelight about their "trans" children?
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

Yes, of course. The parents. Because four year olds totes know their so-called "gender identity," and, well, of course, parents would never, ever do something like hint about it. Or treat their "girly" boy as a boy, but maybe they would tell him he might "really" be a girl? Have you looked into parents who hog the limelight about their "trans" children?
But there are also parents who would send their kids off to conversion therapy for saying they had a harmless crush on someone of the same sex.

It's like the saying, "hard cases make for bad law" - there are always extremes. The very argument of extremes can be used against everything related to the paranormal - in fact "skeptics" do this repeatedly, find the people who tried to faith heal their kids rather than go seek medical treatment, and condemn all parapsychology as a dangerous field and all religious faith as poison.
 
But there are also parents who would send their kids off to conversion therapy for saying they had a harmless crush on someone of the same sex.

It's like the saying, "hard cases make for bad law" - there are always extremes. The very argument of extremes can be used against everything related to the paranormal - in fact "skeptics" do this repeatedly, find the people who tried to faith heal their kids rather than go seek medical treatment, and condemn all parapsychology as a dangerous field and all religious faith as poison.
This conversation isn't going to go well between us, Sci, because I think the current transgenderism IS gay conversion therapy for kids, but with a "liberal" lemon twist and a dash of progressiveness.
 
How can children consent to be sterilized and socially transitioned before hitting puberty?
This, exactly. It's sterilization of these kids before they even know what that means. Whether parents are well meaning or not, this should stop any reasonable person cold.

Regardless of how evolved we believe ourselves to be, the impetus to procreate is strong and a deeply personal issue. Taking this away from someone who cannot understand the gravity of such a decision at the time is criminal.
 
I can wait, easily. After all, I also promised that I will describe my general position on child liberation, and haven't posted anything for now. It is mind-bendingly hard to formulate a whole liberatory worldview in a post.

And, I had to confess, I'm a bit anxious to move forward in this direction. Arguing for emancipation of children nowadays in something like preaching religious tolerance in the 16th century Inquisition-dominated Europe.

Yet, polite responses to my original posts on this topic were a very pleasant surprise. When I posted my original long post, I was badly afraid that all the reputation I earned on Skeptiko would be destroyed in a moment. It literally took all my courage to press the "Post Reply" button that time.

But I did it for the simple reason: I'm sincerely convinced that I am objectively correct in what I claim, and dominant postion on this issue is objectively misguided.

One has to be born and raised in an effectively anarchic society (1990s Russia, 1960s - 1970s Liberatrian Left communes and families in the West, etc.) to be as completely devoid of conditioned negative response to child-adult sex as I do. But I still hope that info I presented may ignite at least a small spark of doubt in someone's mind.
Hey dude, I got it. You do seem to believe in the "child liberation" thing (I don't), but I can read your posts here without even thinking about it. Well, until now, because you brought it up! Haha

I still disagree with you, and it's true, I was going to respond, but life got in the way and you did respond to my post two or three months later. But really, I don't think this is something we can agree on.

Perhaps you should start a thread on Child LIberation, like the Vegan and other threads, and Skeptiko can hash it out there? I dunno, just throwing stuff out there.

Good luck, Vortex!
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

This conversation isn't going to go well between us, Sci, because I think the current transgenderism IS gay conversion therapy for kids, but with a "liberal" lemon twist and a dash of progressiveness.
That is a good question - Are the biological differences in the brain, if confirmed after larger samples are examined, indicators of trans or homosexuality? I'm willing to accept there will ultimately be no cases of trans and only cases of treatable gender dysphoria or therapy to accept homosexuality, though having talked to some trans people I doubt that will be the case. There seem to be sexual orientation variations separate from gender identification.
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I don't think we're that far apart? I just think that in a minimal number of cases there might be a case for transitioning - even before puberty - but would agree there needs to be more research done.

I do agree with you we should be very wary of mis-diagnosis, why I think any kind of transitioning should be a last resort.
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

Baboom!! Lol!

I have to say, I agree.


Tell me this kid has any iota of wtf he's doing. (Hint: he doesn't and his parents should be ashamed of themselves).
Seems like a lazy caricature of a complicated issue. {I say this b/c I've seen this video before in a debate and couldn't find any outside confirmation.}

Remember some people think making your children believe in religions that have little confirming evidence is also a form of abuse.
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

Seems like a lazy caricature of a complicated issue. {I say this b/c I've seen this video before in a debate and couldn't find any outside confirmation.}

Remember some people think making your children believe in religions that have little confirming evidence is also a form of abuse.
Ah no, apparently you're right this is real.

Well I don't agree with this, but then I don't agree with child beauty paegants either.
 
Seems like a lazy caricature of a complicated issue. {I say this b/c I've seen this video before in a debate and couldn't find any outside confirmation.}

Remember some people think making your children believe in religions that have little confirming evidence is also a form of abuse.
No, I have seen this kid elsewhere, and it's disgusting to me that parents let their 8-year-old be a "drag queen." Just let kids be kids, FFS! This is OBVIOUSLY done by the parents.
 
Here is what I wrote in my notes a few days ago when everyone was arguing about gay rights and gay marriage:

Well, on the gay question and children — I think it’s fine to talk to children in an age-appropriate way about gay relationships, in the same way one would explain heterosexual relationships. No need to bring sex into it. I mean, when a four-year-old asks, “Where do babies come from?” most parents don’t go into some graphic explanation of sex.

Gay people are here and they have rights, including marriage rights. Pretending they don’t exist or not mentioning that women can marry women and men can marry men seems counterproductive in this day and age.

My son just turned seven, and his best friend is a girl who has two moms. (She also has two dads who live in another state. I’m kind of jealous that she has four parents and a ton of grandparents, haha.) At his age, he has never asked me about it or found it weird. It just is.

Last year at this time (it’s Pride month here), I read to him the infamous “Heather Has Two Mommies,” since he is best friends with the aforementioned girl. He said nothing. I didn’t turn to him and ask, “DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?” to prompt him into finding it weird. To him, it was just another book we read.

I know, I live in San Francisco, so it’s a bit different here. But he does see men holding hands on the street all the time. He doesn’t mention it, because he is also at the age where it is still acceptable to hold hands with his friends, male or female, so he doesn’t find it strange. He doesn’t have a concept of sex or even romance yet.

I’ll deal with it when it, as in sex, does come up, though, and be honest about it!

But I also am not a fan of leaving the teaching of sex and “morality” to the State. Teaching the basics of sex in health class is fine with me, though. (Years ago I would have felt differently. I did support the State teaching sex as well as morality.) I do think parents have a right to teach their kids about this stuff without State interference, especially since public education is compulsory, and parents don’t have a choice unless they have the money to pay for private schools.

I am still open to people telling me I am full of shit and do better.

PS This was earlier in the thread and I felt DB did okay with his answers.
 
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