Jesus’ Existence

#42
I can buy that! I would be the Catholic gnostic Mork! Plus you know what they say about Catholic girls !!! OHHHHH, don't get me going at work here ! You know what, I come to love this thread!
That's the spirit!

I must say Orson's proclamation there is quite Gnostic. "That's a lesson one can only learn from the school of ones self".
Go forth and let it be known!
 

Alex

Administrator
#43
It sounds like you both are from the Charles Manson family lol much like Mr. Crowley one of your types.
posts should contribute to the knowledge base of the group. links, quotes, informed opinions based on experience. please take a couple of days off from posting so you can read the forum and get a hang of it. send me an email when yr ready to re-join: alex at skeptiko.com
 
#44
Thought I would outline some of the differences between the Gnostic Christ and the Churches Christ.

Biblical Christians attribute Christ with that of the God of the old testament Jehovah or Yahweh, which the Gnostics referred to as the demiurge. In the Gnostic view the Christ was the messenger of the Monad, the primordial source.

Biblical Christians believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins and can gain entry to the kingdom of heaven by following his teachings, The Gnostic view was quite different. For Gnostics the root of evil is ignorance and by following the teachings we can learn to escape ignorance to become enlightened. It is not given by Jesus or God, but is attained by turning inwards to attain gnosis. So it is up to the individual to gain salvation.

Where divine knowledge is external for the regular Christian, scripture, priests etc.. To use as guidance to light the path. The Gnostics believed this light is internal, already existing inside of us, needing to be unlocked.

The actual issue of this thread, whether he walked the Earth as man as well as the resurrection is the greatest difference. We all know the biblical Christian point of view, that it was a literal and physical event. However the Gnostics viewed it as symbolic. It was interpreted as a spiritual resurrection. So when one finds gnosis, it is as if Jesus as been resurrected inside of you. You symbolically meet Jesus and your previously dead spiritual spark has returned to life.

In the gnostic view this is what it means to meet Jesus.

Many accounts in the NT actually present this view. Paul's encounters were from revelations and not physically meeting a person, for the most part everything is entirely symbolic.

Myth is meaning cloaked in symbols. This is how secret sects and the mystery schools operated, the true lessons were not for the masses but only for initiates. The exoteric and the esoteric. Jesus spoke in parables for the masses but spoke directly to disciples. (symbolically).

"To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."
(Matthew 13:10)

So I ask, isn't this what we all are trying to do regardless of what religion? (With exceptions of course). At it's very base are the same principles in Buddhism, Hinduism, Kabbalism, Hermeticism, Alchemy etc.. And if you look deeply beyond the exoteric and through the cloak of symbolism it even can be found in the regular Abrahamic religions. The beauty of it is all can be a source for gnosis. You don't have to support any one team :)

You can see why it has and is persecuted. In the gnostic view the church has no power at all. It is all up to you, the path is internal, it is not granted, it is not found externally, or by mere acceptance or faith. It is only found through actual experience.
 
#45
it's kinda funny that you started this thread because this is the next major skeptiko project and we are right in the middle of it. so please send me a private message / conversation if you want to join in the fun.

But be forewarned we're doing kind of a deep dive so unless you're into stuff like comparing josephus versus tacitus it might not be that interesting to you.

Spoiler alert... it's pretty obvious that jesus of the bible didn't exist. and if you want to settle for an atheist... oops I mean agnostic... fallback position like bart ehrman then you have to ask yourself what that version of jesus gets you
Your a dupe! Wrong %100about there not being a Jesus, what proof you have. You know more then biblical scholars ,think not; this the fake news part of skeptico /
 
#46
For Gnostics the root of evil is ignorance and by following the teachings we can learn to escape ignorance to become enlightened. It is not given by Jesus or God, but is attained by turning inwards to attain gnosis. So it is up to the individual to gain salvation.
Therein lies the fundamental difference between Gnosticism and Christianity.

Gnosticism says men can become gods by their own volition, without God's grace.

The Bible teaches that men are not intended to be gods, but can achieve eternal life only by exercising their Free Will to obey the laws of the Universe as revealed by the Monad in the Bible.

Again I ask, why is it that Christians are a hated minority, and the destructive systems of Transhumanism, Communism, and Global NWO Totalitarianism are based upon Gnosticism? You keep ignoring this.
 
#47
Therein lies the fundamental difference between Gnosticism and Christianity.

Gnosticism says men can become gods by their own volition, without God's grace.
There is much misinformation, mainly spread by the church that I am sensing here. The great work as described in Alchemy/Hermiticism is one of unity with the divine. Awakening the divine spark. The roots of gnostic thought are found in many traditions.

The Bible teaches that men are not intended to be gods, but can achieve eternal life only by exercising their Free Will to obey the laws of the Universe as revealed by the Monad in the Bible.
There is no reference to the Monad, that would be blasphemous! Although this is who Jesus refers to but it is certainly not taught as such. As I Mentioned there are two Gods. The Bible is the exoteric. I outlined the difference in this aspect. One is path external the other is internal.

Again I ask, why is it that Christians are a hated minority, and the destructive systems of Transhumanism, Communism, and Global NWO Totalitarianism are based upon Gnosticism? You keep ignoring this.
Because it isn't. The true corruption is simply control/power and money and is often cloaked in something that is actually righteous.

I would hardly call about a billion people a minority.

How about the Pope? Where does he fit with this grand theory?

It should be said the the term Archon literally means ruler. The word has roots derived from hierarchy and monarchy. This is in complete opposition to your view. As is a path that is described in the Nag Hammadi as beginning "with love and goodness".

It certainly can't be argued that the Church has not been responsible for all the things I previously mentioned over 2 thousand years. Except the apologetic view that it was Satan's work or rather the erroneous ad hoc equivalent of Lucifer that was responsible and not actually men acting in Gods name.

It is not devil worship Charlie, it is a personal path for spirituality not this comic book view of a cult.
 
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#48
There is no reference to the Monad, that would be blasphemous! Although this is who Jesus refers to
You contradict yourself.

Because it isn't.
The destructive systems of Transhumanism, Communism, and Global NWO Totalitarianism are indeed based upon Gnosticism/Luciferianism/Satanism.

Keep studying all those philosophies and you will eventually realize this fact.

What percentage of the world's population do you calculate is Christian? Please show your work.

It certainly can't be argued that the Church has not been responsible for all the things I previously mentioned over 2 thousand years. Except the apologetic view that it was Satan's work or rather the erroneous ad hoc equivalent of Lucifer that was responsible and not actually men acting in Gods name.
Correct. The basis of Evil is deception.
 
#49
You contradict yourself.
No, I think I was quite clear, but please if you can find reference to the Monad in the bible I would very much appreciate the quote. It is a Gnostic term first used by Pythagoreans, so yeah that would be interesting, connecting with such previous schools of thought.

The destructive systems of Transhumanism, Communism, and Global NWO Totalitarianism are indeed based upon Gnosticism/Luciferianism/Satanism.

Keep studying all those philosophies and you will eventually realize this fact.
Thomasine, Johannine and Valentinian Gnosticism were forms of Christianity. You need to do some actual research and not listen to church propaganda. I have quite thoroughly researched for many years which is why I know none of those are equivalent. Satanists who think Lucifer is the devil are idiots and haven't a clue what they are talking about. Would you like to know how that error occurred? I know because I have studied these things.

Equating them to Gnosticism is even more flawed. Sorry Charlie that is ridiculous. Please..... be reasonable.

Why is it that Christians are so unlike the Christ? Why do they consistently demonize anything that is outside their circle of doctrine and knowledge?

For the record I consider myself eclectic and Pagan, I use Shamanism which is line with Gnosticism. I do not adhere to any one system. Call me a Devil worshipper if you like. I was usually accused of being demonically possessed by Christians. Always gave me a laugh. These days I have learnt not to engage in person. They are too indoctrinated and too closed minded.

Wait till I tell about my old friend I call the serpent spirit, It goes by many names in many cultures. Then you may wish to burn me at the stake. :)

What percentage of the world's population do you calculate is Christian? Please show your work.
It is Just a guess. It's not a minority, Churches are everywhere.

And it seems I was way short in that estimate.

"As of the year 2015, Christianity had approximately 2.4 billion adherents out of a worldwide population of about 7.5 billion people."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country#cite_note-World-1
https://www.learnreligions.com/christianity-statistics-700533
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/which-countries-have-the-most-christians-around-the-world.html
 
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#53
Mutual exclusivity - "In logic and probability theory, two events are mutually exclusive or disjoint if they cannot both occur at the same time. "

2 gods
One named.

Go figure.
 
#55
It’s always tricky with these mythic/legendary figures from the past, and in what sense they “existed”. I’ve been doing a deepish dive into the Trojan War recently and it appears to have been based in a germ of real events.

Did Achilles “exist”? It’s possible.

Are all the (surviving) stories about him true? Unlikely.
 
#56
Noting magical or mystical about a person living on earth or not; they did or didn't . Fact is Jesus did exist and was killed crucified by the powers of be in Israel at the time along with the Jewish leaders because of things he was doing. Any Atheist PHD in history will tell you that. I mean did George Washington really exist? How do you really know? Dumb question right ? If the shoe fits!
 
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#57
There is absolutely no references during the life of Jesus, nothing. It's like he had no impact at all. None of his words were written down by him or by anyone listening at the time or any historian at the time.

Let's say he did, but then everyone totally forgot for several decades and then remembered again and the story was gradually folded into what it is today on the back of Roman imperialism while everything about him that was deemed heretical was censored to manufacture the cannon.

That is the history. It is the anti thesis of certainty.

I much prefer the JEU, the Jesus extended universe. :)
 
#58
Noting magical or mystical about a person living on earth or not; they did or didn't . Fact is Jesus did exist and was killed crucified by the powers of be in Israel at the time along with the Jewish leaders because of things he was doing. Any Atheist PHD in history will tell you that. I mean did George Washington really exist? How do you really know? Dumb question right ? If the shoe fits!
I think it is easy to obsess about whether a person - or indeed a virus - did or did not exist. It sort of misses the point. Can you say that a virus exists, if it doesn't have the properties stated for it? Likewise, can you say that a figure like Jesus existed, if he didn't have a life anything like the one he is recorded as having.

Thinking about Jesus, i am struck by the strange fact that he was (or is supposed to be) lauded by three kings who brought him expensive gifts, then he just about disappears till he is nearly 30 (except I seem to recall something happened at age 12) before becoming the Messiah. It couldn't be perhaps that the first Jesus was conveniently plucked from the many stories of a coming Messiah around at the time, and his 'return' - about 30 years later was simply someone else - or a stitched together myth? I mean, if people knew you were special as you were born (rather like the Dalai Lama) wouldn't people record your childhood in some degree of detail?

David
 
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