Jesus’ Existence

#61
False. But you don't care about things like facts and logic, so meh.

Go with your fake Gnostic hippy narrative. It makes you happy.
References? by all means, yes please.

And yes very happy, It gives the fuller picture that was hidden beyond the exoteric symbolism that Christians falsely think is literal. It is much richer and has much more meaning and they knew it was just allegory.
 
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#63
I agree with you.

Cool allegorical stories and the richness of gud feelz are far more pleasurable that actual facts and logic.

Enjoy!
Yes the bible is a book of facts and logic.
Not.

It's myth and can't be understood until it is accepted as such. But I guess it feelz gud to believe it is literal, but then you are missing the point.
 
#65
I think it is easy to obsess about whether a person - or indeed a virus - did or did not exist. It sort of misses the point. Can you say that a virus exists, if it doesn't have the properties stated for it? Likewise, can you say that a figure like Jesus existed, if he didn't have a life anything like the one he is recorded as having.

Thinking about Jesus, i am struck by the strange fact that he was (or is supposed to be) lauded by three kings who brought him expensive gifts, then he just about disappears till he is nearly 30 (except I seem to recall something happened at age 12) before becoming the Messiah. It couldn't be perhaps that the first Jesus was conveniently plucked from the many stories of a coming Messiah around at the time, and his 'return' - about 30 years later was simply someone else - or a stitched together myth? I mean, if people knew you were special as you were born (rather like the Dalai Lama) wouldn't people record your childhood in some degree of detail?

David
The nativity was embellishment. Paul apparently knew nothing of this. It's symbolic.

The mother of the Christos was in gnostic terms Barbelo the primary thought emanation of the source. The thinking a thought of itself thinking. This three part process was the divine trinity.

The father, nous or mind, the thinking, the invisible spirit. The object of the thinking, the thought is ennoia (Barbelo). The feminine principal. The thought thinking itself is the child, Christos. In fullness actually the Christ/Sophia. Mary Magdalene represents the feminine aspect Sophia. That is why she is revered in some sects.
 
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#69
Enjoy the matrix of deception, some do.
That’s actually the funniest part.

Internet Gnostics think they are anti-system and cool because they are "out of the Matrix". They stumbled across some YouTube video where they discover this Gnosis thing for the first time and “WHOA!”

Next they google up some hippie Gnostic websites telling them they are smarter than the average bear for realizing this cool secret where there’s a Goddess and mean ‘ol misogynist Yahweh is only for low-class bible-thumpin Hillbilles who are afraid of sex. “I knew it!”

They never learn the part where the Essenes were hard-core militant ascetic weirdos akin to ISIS who hated women and would have slit your throat in a heartbeat for simply wandering into their village.

I’ve been doing this for 20 years LS. After wrestling you guys to the mat on textual criticisms and Neo-Platonism, you always wind up saying “Well, I just like it cuz I like it”. There. I just saved both of us a LOT of typing.

Here’s my 20 year-old copy of Nag Hammadi.

Show me yours.

 
#70
Wrestled to the mat! :) Anyone can see what's gone on here. I'm not interested in your pissing contest sorry.

My copy is only a PDF. Same translation. Nice pristine copy there. :) After reading it I still did not understand, just like you. It took far more than the text to grasp it. You won't find any magic keys in it either. It's just words. I am not even interested in owning a hard copy. It's useless to me, other than the historic intellectualism and symbology of such principles.

It was my own experiences in gnosis and incredible encounters with a feminine entity I later recognized as Sophia that led me to Gnosticism and other schools of thought in the first place. It allowed me to understand serpent mythology and that what I was experiencing was something very ancient and global but intellectually unaware of.

I first read the Tibetan book of the dead at age ten and kept searching for decades, books, religions, the occult. It wasn't until many, many years later, about three decades, that I found what I was looking for all my life. It does not exist in books or in churches and no one can spoon feed it to you.

It's not about books or websites, it's about experience. No faith required. Intellectualizing the ineffable is also is a hindrance. It's all useless without the experience. You can spend a whole life with your head in the books and you still would not be any closer to knowing.
 
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#71
The nativity was embellishment. Paul apparently knew nothing of this. It's symbolic.
This is he whole problem with ancient religions - or maybe any religions at all - you learn stuff at school, and then it is claimed some of it is meant allegorically, and then other bits flake off - it just isn't a practical way to live unless you shut down part of your brain!

David
 
#72
That’s actually the funniest part.

Internet Gnostics think they are anti-system and cool because they are "out of the Matrix". They stumbled across some YouTube video where they discover this Gnosis thing for the first time and “WHOA!”

Next they google up some hippie Gnostic websites telling them they are smarter than the average bear for realizing this cool secret where there’s a Goddess and mean ‘ol misogynist Yahweh is only for low-class bible-thumpin Hillbilles who are afraid of sex. “I knew it!”

They never learn the part where the Essenes were hard-core militant ascetic weirdos akin to ISIS who hated women and would have slit your throat in a heartbeat for simply wandering into their village.

I’ve been doing this for 20 years LS. After wrestling you guys to the mat on textual criticisms and Neo-Platonism, you always wind up saying “Well, I just like it cuz I like it”. There. I just saved both of us a LOT of typing.

Here’s my 20 year-old copy of Nag Hammadi.

Show me yours.

1) Just to ask, Charlie - do your own views and positions make you feel bad? Otherwise, I can't understand why you are so angry at someone feeling good about theirs. :eek:

2) How far does you Bibilical literalism goes? I hope, not to the hardcore Young Earth Creationist level...

3) I'm perfectly aware that teachings and practices of many ancient (and not so ancient) Gnostic sects wouldn't perfectly fit in the modern Western(ised) societies' value systems - but well, so are the ones of many ancient (and not so ancient) Christian churches. But Gnostics, as well as Christians, were (and are) a very diverse bunch, differing from one another to a notable degree. It's up to everyone to learn and decide what forms and manifestations of Gnosticism - and / or Christianity - one accepts, and which forms and manifestations one rejects.

P.S. In the end, it is always up to a particular human being, to his or her own thought, experience and volition. The ultimate judgement is always yours - for yourself; other person will always think, experience and decide somewhat differently. There is no universal external arbiter - well, unless one decides to create one for oneself... What's ironic, however, is the fact that such creation of supposedly external and universal authority is itself arbitrary and comes from within.

The problems rise only on the level of social interaction, where the Self meets the Other.
 
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#73
The people that wrote down the letters in the interviews , kind of like like interviews the eye witnesses , plus the many historians at the time that wrote about Jesus , even his supernatural claims. You have no evidence to refute that other then your limited bias of the subjetc matter. I can say there is no evidence of ghostis people at the time.
I think it is easy to obsess about whether a person - or indeed a virus - did or did not exist. It sort of misses the point. Can you say that a virus exists, if it doesn't have the properties stated for it? Likewise, can you say that a figure like Jesus existed, if he didn't have a life anything like the one he is recorded as having.

Thinking about Jesus, i am struck by the strange fact that he was (or is supposed to be) lauded by three kings who brought him expensive gifts, then he just about disappears till he is nearly 30 (except I seem to recall something happened at age 12) before becoming the Messiah. It couldn't be perhaps that the first Jesus was conveniently plucked from the many stories of a coming Messiah around at the time, and his 'return' - about 30 years later was simply someone else - or a stitched together myth? I mean, if people knew you were special as you were born (rather like the Dalai Lama) wouldn't people record your childhood in some degree of detail?

David
I would say he might have been introduced to Yoga type mediation while his family lived abroad maybe in Alexandrea Egypt ; that was the cross roads of most of the world at the time and people from the east I'm sure came. My only argument is : just to say he didn't exist or walk the earth is wrong.
 
#74
This is he whole problem with ancient religions - or maybe any religions at all - you learn stuff at school, and then it is claimed some of it is meant allegorically, and then other bits flake off - it just isn't a practical way to live unless you shut down part of your brain!

David
I agree ! that's why I say I'm a naturalist type basic mystical Christian only to a degree.
 
#75
My only argument is : just to say he didn't exist or walk the earth is wrong.
Yes, but suppose for the sake of argument, the baby Jesus and the Jesus that his deciples followed, were two different people, or one of them was made up. The seemingly sharp dichotomy - existed vs didn't exist - can dissolve into a lot of much messier possibilities. I am not sure if Alex realises that this is equally true of viruses!

David
 
#77
do your own views and positions make you feel bad?
No. And I'm not angry.

> 2) How far does you Bibilical literalism goes?

I don't know what scale you use for Biblical Literalism. The Bible is full of metaphor, allegory, and occult symbolism. It was written by iron age people, so you have to read with that in mind.

> 3) It's up to everyone to learn and decide what forms and manifestations of Gnosticism - and / or Christianity - one accepts

That's why the texts exist.

> There is no universal external arbiter ...What's ironic, however, is the fact that such creation of supposedly external and universal authority is itself arbitrary and comes from within.

If there is no external standard other than me, I'm perfectly justified in raping you to death and then throwing your backstrap on my BBQ because it pleases me.
 
#80
Where do you separate the possible man or amalgam of men from the myth?
There is no line of separation. The further you go back in history, the more mythical they become.

It's like comparing facts about Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. vs. Jesse James vs. William Shakespeare vs. Plato

All have myths built up around them. There is more evidence Jesus actually existed than there is that William Shakespeare did.
 
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