Jim Marrs is not a Scientologist |340|

#61
The AWARE II study is up in May and he was all over the news back a few months ago. I agree that comment was unfortunate, but I don't think that it was really directed towards this audience, but served more as some sort of defense mechanism to avoid being called "woo woo" or something like that. He is, after all, operating in a very difficult market for this kind of thing (the heavily skeptical U.K.). In last December he was interviewed in public radio and discussed the stance that consciousness' "source" may not be the brain with relative normalcy (maybe he already secured the funds for the final stages of AWARE II?), which is a posture that he had prodded in his book before. Whether saying that -just a few months before the project is due- points towards them getting a hit, I don't know... But at least it points to them not having a patient that went into an OBE and missed a target.

I think of Parnia as a "secret" proponent, he is cautious as hell and puts his career first, but every once in a while there are these blurbs that reveal what is in his mind.

I'm happy to learn that we are delving back into the VR stuff soon, that particular field is getting increasingly hot and systematically becoming more "mainstream". The proposed experiments are also a welcome sight that could very well have repercussions about the way the public sees consciousness if successful.
I had forgot about AWARE for a little while now, but was reminded of it the other day and went to look into the status of AWARE II. Couldn't find anything anywhere. Just curious where you got the information on it? Thanks

Seemed like AWARE Part I was originally supposed to be "up" at some particular date, but didn't it get delayed for quite some time past it's original due date?
 
#62
...the fact that any other explanation of evolution seems to require a (probably non-physical) intelligence.

David
yeah, I think self-directed neuroplasticity (and related stuff like psi) comes into play as well. if your thoughts can turn genes on/off then all bets re evolution are off.
 
#63
So, no need for anyone to respond to this message. I didn't read the other responses and I won't read them for this post either. I do want to apologize though for being kind of harsh in my previous post. I've been a listener for over a few years now and have listened to just about all of the podcasts, minus one or two. While I don't always agree, I still find them worthwhile and I appreciate that we are able to receive (for free!) high quality, non-fluff discussions on parapsychology and afterlife topics . Although, I've been increasingly frustrated by the content of recent shows. I actually didn't listen to the end of this one because for me, this guy was discredited as soon as he went on his very subjective political rant. I couldn't take anything else he said seriously. This podcast reminded me of mainstream neuroscientists who argue for materialism while ignoring vast amounts of evidence - empirical evidence, to the contrary. This guy is steeped in his dogma as well.
I do appreciate the Skeptiko podcasts (not this one. haha)! I've listened to many podcasts and podcasters on the paranormal and hold Alex's interviews to a higher standard because they're usually more engaging, informative and well researched than a lot of the other stuff out there.
I was angered by this interview, and if I had waited awhile to respond, I would have re-phrased my remarks. Therefore, I do apologize.
Cheers.
 
#65
Y'know... the people I know from my government, the media, big business....they're all nice and kind and friendly. I've no reason whatsoever to believe they are in any way trying to con me or anyone else. It's not as if there's any evidence they ever did.

:eek:

As for the question: it's obvious that if some people within the three letter agencies (probably in my country too) were interested in mind control, they would look to cults and sects to learn from them. I don't know if there was any direct connection, though. I don't see any reason why they should enlist a hack writer, even if he had managed to churn out so much pulp in so many different genres that he could afford a yacht. Maybe through his writing about unusual stuff he had stumbled on a few genuine things about consciousness, but I guess, mostly, Hubbard was just making up more (bad) fiction.
 
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#66
But why would he hurt his credibility to use his reputation to push their merchandise?
The Occam's Razor, simplest explanation is that Marrs sold out.

Marrs is 74 years old. Guys that age sometimes decide it's best to cash-out all the credibility they spent decades building and give the money to their children.

I've seen this phenomena many times in the martial arts industry. Masters who spent decades building credibility sometimes transform their chain of franchise martial arts schools into chop-socky belt factories for kids during the last few years of their lives.
 
#67
#68
Y'know... the people I know from my government, the media, big business....they're all nice and kind and friendly. I've no reason whatsoever to believe they are in any way trying to con me or anyone else.
nice :)

As for the question: it's obvious that if some people within the three letter agencies (probably in my country too) were interested in mind control, they would look to cults and sects to learn from them. I don't know if there was any direct connection, though.
I discovered there was an original direct connection i.e. Hubbard was working on this stuff for the CIA before they were the CIA (see: http://www.wanttoknow.info/mind_control/scientology_remote_viewing).

so one of the big questions is what did all this become. one possibility is that Scientology is some kind of social experiment in mind control being run by...
 
#71
nice :)


I discovered there was an original direct connection i.e. Hubbard was working on this stuff for the CIA before they were the CIA (see: http://www.wanttoknow.info/mind_control/scientology_remote_viewing).

so one of the big questions is what did all this become. one possibility is that Scientology is some kind of social experiment in mind control being run by...
So have you ever talked to Hal Puthoff about Scientology? I've heard Ingo Swann and Hal Puthoff say that they left the church. But the link you provided suggests otherwise.
 
#72
So have you ever talked to Hal Puthoff about Scientology? I've heard Ingo Swann and Hal Puthoff say that they left the church. But the link you provided suggests otherwise.
yeah, it's pretty crazy... can't quite get my arms around it:

(https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.co...g-for-the-cia-at-stanford-research-institute/)
Here’s the plain text of Puthoff’s letter –

As the attached material indicates, I am a physicist at Stanford University working in the field of lasers in which I have several patents and publications, including co-authorship of a textbook on lasers widely used throughout the United States and Europe.

As part of my professional work in education and technology, I am continuously involved in assessing various forms of educational systems. In this capacity I have come into contact with and have studied extensively the system developed by L. Ron Hubbard known as Scientology.

Although critics viewing the system from the outside may form the impression that Scientology is just another of many quasi-educational quasi-religious “schemes”, it is in fact a highly sophisticated and highly technological system more characteristic of the best of modern corporate planning and applied technology. Examination of the system at close hand reveals that upwards of millions of man hours of carefully supervised research have gone into the development of the system, and the successes obtained in the rehabilitation of people’s abilities and emotional stability is truly phenomenal, even in such areas as alcoholism and drug abuse which are known classically to be highly resistant to conventional therapy techniques.

From a more technical viewpoint, the use of the “E-meter” to measure physiological variables which correlate with emotional responses can be viewed as representative of a large-scale innovation in medical analysis and computer education known as “physiological feedback”. These techniques are currently being applied on an increasing scale by the medical profession in the treatment of physical and emotional ailments which require that a person learn to control high blood pressure, anxiety states, muscular tension, etc. In the technical community here at Stanford, we have projects underway employing the techniques developed in Scientology, which techniques have been found to be quite advanced and practical.

The philosophy and understanding of human nature which has arisen from these studies and is expounded in the Scientology literature I find to be an uplifting and workable system of concepts which blend the best of Eastern and Western religious traditions. After seeing these techniques in operation and experiencing them myself, I am certain that they will be incorporated eventually in a large scale in modern society as the readiness and awareness level develops.
 
#73
yeah, it's pretty crazy... can't quite get my arms around it:

(https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.co...g-for-the-cia-at-stanford-research-institute/)
Here’s the plain text of Puthoff’s letter –

As the attached material indicates, I am a physicist at Stanford University working in the field of lasers in which I have several patents and publications, including co-authorship of a textbook on lasers widely used throughout the United States and Europe.

As part of my professional work in education and technology, I am continuously involved in assessing various forms of educational systems. In this capacity I have come into contact with and have studied extensively the system developed by L. Ron Hubbard known as Scientology.

Although critics viewing the system from the outside may form the impression that Scientology is just another of many quasi-educational quasi-religious “schemes”, it is in fact a highly sophisticated and highly technological system more characteristic of the best of modern corporate planning and applied technology. Examination of the system at close hand reveals that upwards of millions of man hours of carefully supervised research have gone into the development of the system, and the successes obtained in the rehabilitation of people’s abilities and emotional stability is truly phenomenal, even in such areas as alcoholism and drug abuse which are known classically to be highly resistant to conventional therapy techniques.

From a more technical viewpoint, the use of the “E-meter” to measure physiological variables which correlate with emotional responses can be viewed as representative of a large-scale innovation in medical analysis and computer education known as “physiological feedback”. These techniques are currently being applied on an increasing scale by the medical profession in the treatment of physical and emotional ailments which require that a person learn to control high blood pressure, anxiety states, muscular tension, etc. In the technical community here at Stanford, we have projects underway employing the techniques developed in Scientology, which techniques have been found to be quite advanced and practical.

The philosophy and understanding of human nature which has arisen from these studies and is expounded in the Scientology literature I find to be an uplifting and workable system of concepts which blend the best of Eastern and Western religious traditions. After seeing these techniques in operation and experiencing them myself, I am certain that they will be incorporated eventually in a large scale in modern society as the readiness and awareness level develops.
But that letter goes back a ways. I'm curious if Puthoff stayed in the cult or not. And if he didn't, would he recant his earlier statements about the e-meter?
 
#75
But that letter goes back a ways. I'm curious if Puthoff stayed in the cult or not. And if he didn't, would he recant his earlier statements about the e-meter?
IDK, but one tidbit I found interesting was the part where Puthoff says he was remote viewing a building after his Scientology training... way before Project Stargate
 
#77
IDK, but one tidbit I found interesting was the part where Puthoff says he was remote viewing a building after his Scientology training... way before Project Stargate
Yeah, I noticed that too. And I'm sure that I've heard him say in talks about remote viewing that he didn't do remote viewing at SRI because they wanted the scientists to be separate from the psychics. He's tried to make it clear that he is a scientist, not an experiencer.

Any plans to get him on the show? :)
 
#78
Yeah, I noticed that too. And I'm sure that I've heard him say in talks about remote viewing that he didn't do remote viewing at SRI because they wanted the scientists to be separate from the psychics. He's tried to make it clear that he is a scientist, not an experiencer.
interesting :)

Any plans to get him on the show? :)
naa... I think I've hammered on Stargate enough... especially considering the next episode is with Ed May.
 
#79
I have no idea... is there a Scientology bible somewhere that will give me a primary source full explanation of their religion? All I've ever heard about Scientology is that they're a creepy cult that persecutes detractors and defectors and L. Ron Hubbard started the religion as a cynical bid to control people and make money. Of course, like Jim Marrs points out, the same could be said and has been said of many prominent religions and there's good and bad apples in every institution.

This was a great interview!
I think the best book I read about Scientology is Jon Atack’s book A Piece of Blue Sky, first published in 1990. I read it in 1998. This was back when I was still writing for a Skeptic site, and my brother sent me the book. At the time he lived in Clearwater, Fla, Scientology’s “Flag Base.” The St. Petersburg Times relentlessly covered Scientology back then. My brother had witnessed RPFers (RPF=Rehabilitation Project Force, a punishment for errant Scientologists) eating out of trash cans.

The book covers Atack’s own experience in Scientology, as well as Hubbard’s (actual) career — his stint in Naval Intelligence, his involvement with the occult, and so on. It also covered the surreal takeover of Scientology by the CMO — Commodore’s Messenger Org — after he died. It covers their war with the IRS, Hubbard’s philosophy and “tech,” OT levels, Xenu, and many other topics.

I have not read or seen the film of Going Clear. I did read Paulette Cooper’s book, the one that made her a target of Scientology (“Operation Freakout”). I still have two huge binders of Scientology print-outs I found off the Internet back then, and a huge collection of personal stories. Particularly fascinating were the ones from people who spent time on “Commodore” Hubbard’s ship with him. I have copies of many Scientology books — some not for the public and some that were — that I found in used bookstores. I have a transcript of David Miscavige’s two-hour victory speech on the IRS. I have a copy of his Nightline appearance too, since he rarely gave interviews. (These are probably on YouTube by now, I assume, but back then it was hard to find.) Basically, I studied this cult for about a year and a half.

(I did, eventually, write about them for the aforementioned Skeptic site, but it is no longer online.)

It’s a fascinating glimpse into a cult and how mind control and conditioning work. These days I do wonder if intelligence agencies were using his “research” of the members of his cult. The techniques are so familiar. (I also wonder about People’s Temple too.) I found it strange that the Federal Government eventually gave them what they wanted, and so I now wonder if they offered something in return. I have my suspicions of what that is.

But, anyway, yes, I recommend Jon Atack’s book as an introduction, though I know there are many more out there now. He was very brave to publish that when he did, and of course he got sued.
 
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