Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Feb 14, 2017.
What are "2nd Matrix folks"?
I've never heard that term.
Well Charlie, 2nd matrix is a term that I believe originates with Jasun Horsley. (http://auticulture.com) In my mind the 2nd matrix is where you land when you reject the standard notions of a reality based only in deterministic materialism. The webs of the second matrix are spun with the concepts of the spiritual and the paranormal may be even more difficult to navigate. The second matrix encompasses all the subjects we talk about here including conspiracy, shamanism, the concept of the afterlife, and on and on. You name it. Certainly a bigger trap than the relative simplicity of materialism.
I hadn't seen auticulture mentioned here on Skeptiko before. Awesome. I probably missed it, as usual!
Ah, I see. Thank you.
Your thesis regarding Marrs + Scientology makes sense.
Scientology is an E.T. Religion. Marrs' hidden alien controllers thesis confirms Scientology's religious doctrine. They make good partners.
Thanks for the info! Scientology is no doubt very creepy. I listened to that Joe Rogan interview of an ex-scientologist... answered many questions too.
It just shows how essential meaning and structure is to life. People are willing to trade so much including personal sovereignty and liberty just to have meaning and purpose and structure.
It also kind of discredits the idea that if people were freed of the fear that death is the ultimate end, they would automatically live more free and open lives.
Perhaps that was one major goal of the Scientology experiment: how do we maintain control of people who have lost the fear of death? Billion year contracts? Intergalactic dramas? Bolshevik style tattle-telling?
I think if you look at Marrs as a kind of meme it makes sense. Or to mix the metaphor, Marrs and his "followers" fit into place like a protein and its receptor. I think Scientology is guessing that the receptor is compatible and that, given the current understanding that "alien" life forms are more likely than not, at least some Marrs "followers" will investigate and chose Scientology.
I had a phone conversation with him followed by a lengthy email exchange in preparation for a potential interview. I'll share on excerpt from Jan:
"In fact, though, those who make the claim of the grand plan of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews – the onus of proof is on them – you to back it with primary documentation. That claim has never been substantiated through actual documents."
I responded with the following:
The reason I referenced the WANNSEE is because, more than anything else, this gets to the heart of the issue... did the Nazi plan and partially implement a system for the deliberate, physical annihilation of the European Jews? I looked through your attached docs (and elsewhere) and I don't see where any credible researchers are even trying to refute this (pls give me specific references if I am wrong). Moreover, here's a transcript of Eichmann's testimony in Jerusalem regarding Wannsee:
So, given the Nazi's were trying to kill all the Jews in Europe (a horrible deed), it just doesn't seem to matter a whole heck of a lot as to whether they killed 6M or 3M... they sure as heck were trying there best, right up to the end, to follow-through with their "Final Solution."
Of course, he got really pissed off and broke off communication.
Sounds like Jan... Regardless of anyone's religion I think it would do Jan (or anyone who gets a little carried away in a debate) some good to read and take to heart 1 Corinthians 13
Interesting stuff. Would you like to re-post yr article here. I'd like to read it.
Indeed. Jan’s online social behavior is atrocious. I believe he genuinely suffers from a mild form of autism.
Ironically, this autism is the very thing that make him such an uncompromisingly good and honest researcher. The autism drives him to do the unglamorous actual historian work of traveling to old University libraries to spend hours reading boring government documents, and filing endless FOIA requests.
Few historians do that kind of core original research anymore. The majority of "historians" today earn their academic paychecks as easily as possible by simply compiling and regurgitating facts uncovered by previous historians.
I must agree with Jan that the onus of proof rests upon the person making an assertion.
Your characterization of him as a “Holocaust Denier” for simply questioning the historical veracity of certain aspects of the official World War Two historical narrative seems unfair to me.
He's still doing interesting work. His company is working on some very radical alternative energy sources. His life didn't stop when Stargate was over.
Yes Jan does some legit research. But I think he makes unnecessarily strong moral judgments based on connections and whether something is structural or destructive.
Having done psychedelics himself, he is strongly against their use because they remove mental structure - and if the state supplies the replacement structure, then yes that can be a potentially very bad thing. But if the mental structures are failing to help an individual cope with life and are themselves a source of stress and pain, a little destruction and reconstruction can be a good thing if supplied with the the necessary myths and tools and community to successfully build them a new and better structure.
Jan rails against Terrence McKenna and Alan Watts and others for their CIA connections and philosophy which helped bring about the deconstruction of individuals and society in the 60s. But again, whether or not destruction is a good or bad thing depends on what replaces it.
You can't blame the wrecking crew for demolishing an old closed factory just because the state decided to put some "projects" turned crack-houses in its place.
I love Jim Marrs..... but there's a but. Three actually:
1) There is a serious flaw in his viewpoint that reflects badly on him as to analytical thinking. It's this: he claims (rightly in my view) that the MSM is totally controlled, cannot be trusted and lies to the populace for its own agenda. Fine. I agree. He then goes on to state that 911 was an inside job. Ok, fine again, mileage may vary but still no problems.
This is where the problems start: his view on Islam is in fact the exact same view promulgated by the MSM and the exact same view that is inspired by the orthodox 911 viewpoint. That's a problem... not because of any Islamophobic element but because it shows a blind spot where analysis and deep thinking is not happening.
2) The statement in the podcast that 'the election was a referendum on the NWO' is perhaps the most mind-boggling and inane misreading I've heard in ANY media.
I know many, many people who voted for Trump. I know many, many people who hate Hilary - my family are in fact Evangelical politicos who know vast numbers of lobbyists. Not ONE of them would EVER deviate from the orthodox view of 911 for example. They ALL - almost without exception - derive their news from Fox News and other right-wing orthodox sources. They may think there is a NWO but their view of it is some sort of Satanic enterprise. Jim's views on this only make sense if he too is some sort of Evangelical - and I'm half starting to wonder.
3) I am not a Socialist, Marxist or a Communist - far from it - but for sure Jim does not know what these things are. His labelling of Hilary (who I detest as much as he does probably) as leaning to such views with an agenda to implement these ideologies is laughable and utterly ludicrous.
I am kind of sad about Jim lately. He seems like he's been losing his edge for a few years but you almost have to give him a pass.
Another Rogan Podcast on Scientology...
I've moved this discussion to a new thread:
but will repeat my post (please respond in the new thread)
I don't think you're getting the gist of our conversation. I mean, he told me about, and then later send me, all this stuff/research from Holocaust deniers and he was very, very supportive of all of it.
And again, pls read and respond to the excerpt from the above email:
"..those who make the claim of the grand plan of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews."
So, I'm not just throwing a label around here... I mean, he's clearing saying that the Nazi's didn't plan to exterminate the European Jews... and of course, this is a provable false/ridiculous claim. So, when I called him on this he didn't say "oh yeah, well of course we all know the Nazis were trying to kill all the Jews," he scolded me for not fully absorbing all the "research" he had sent me.
Question... do you think the claim of a "grand plan by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews" is an unproven historical fact?
I'd like to know more about this connection. do you have any good links to share?Secret Agent 666. Alester Corwley, British Intelligence and the occult. Occult groups are all about mind control. There is no way Hubbard made up that elaborate system of spying on each other Remini goes into. I think it's the same in other cults
I don't know... I see it much more like this:
I have trouble believing Trump cares so much about the common man he is willing to take on the deep state. He eats McDonalds, creates fake universities, failed casinos and abuses workers and tenants while gloryfying himself in the most tawdry ways possible. He's practically RuPaul. Give me a break. He spews a populist message to get votes and is probably being used unwittingly in a deeper machination most likely dealing with destabilization of the USA and fomenting civil war to bring on the police state the elite crave.
I thought I did
Yeah but that didn't attack the faulty theory that denies existence of spirit. It just made him a plagiarizer. I listened to it a couple years ago. Great show!
Evolution denies spirit so the only mystery left in that area is.....Aliens! You can be totally scientific and still believe in Aliens. So they made a religion that involves Aliens (and somehow reincarnation as well) All the while these 'scientific' occult groups are attempting to contact demons!!! The irony is just too much. That's why I think Evolution needs to be knocked off it's pedestal. The fact that everybody who has an education believes in random mutation Evolution and also black holes and the big bang is a sophisticated form of mind control. And ya don't have to be a Jesus freak to NOT believe in it. Stephen Meyer is damn good. Will try and see what he has been up to.
The CIA did the opposite. They destroyed an existing structure that was alive and working, and replaced it with a crack house.
I don't know... maybe we can look back at the Leave it to Beaver 50's and idealize that form of "structure", and in some ways it may have been better. But I do think the process of deconstruction and reconstruction must be ongoing to a certain extent... otherwise, existing structures become stale, stagnant, brittle, corrupt, etc. To be a positive thing though, I think it typically has to be measured and judicious and slow.
Curious - do you see parallels in the mind control techniques of Scientology and how "skeptics" try to assert materialism as something more than nonsense?
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