John Brisson, Finders Cult or Another Epsteinesque Brownstone Op |443|

Left hand path from my research has more to do with making yourself a "God" and living by your own moral codes and taking your power back. I think "dark" stuff gets intertwined but doesn't it penetrate every institution? Christianity and Islam has murdered, rape millions in the name of God
My research (and experience with many Left Hand path "movements," "currents," organizations, and paradigms (such as many view quite a few Gnostic sub-paradigms), a specific movement called The 4th Way (Gurdjieff), all share the general tenets of Left Hand Path "core philosophies" of which you highlighted, Baccarat.

The Right Hand Path essentially submits one's existence to an external authority and/or a finality of outcome external to one's ability to control.

These are very basic descriptions and there's much more to each.

What I had hoped to convey is that underneath the overall Left Hand Path "umbrella" is what I refer to as "Left-down." This is all and only my own term. What the term points to is the direction taken within the grand framework of Left Hand Path among particular currents that use "magickal" practices for personal or "group" gain against others. This then moves further "down" when these practices could be called "magickal ritual abuse" and "magickal ritual sacrifice."

That the "Christian paradigm" is a currently, worldwide known paradigm and in many regions of the world is a dominant paradigm held deep within the psych-spiritual regions of an individual's consciousness, it is easy to understand how the dynamic of - God and God's angels vs a super natural "adversary" (Satan) and Satan's demons spurs the terms - Satanic Ritual Abuse and Satanic Ritual Sacrifice.

Do these practices happen? Maybe... some would say definitely, some would say likely, some prefer to believe it isn't happening in any organized fashion, some don't even entertain the possibility. The biggest point of all is - where across that entire spectrum does your opinions/beliefs fall? And then, how does your belief/or opinion help yourself and perhaps more critically - help others?

Because that was the single biggest point Alex attempted to bring out starting around 1 hours and 37 minutes and until one can get past the understanding that, by placing a potential practice within a framework of a specific paradigm (The Christian Paradigm), one creates a massive barrier between reaching a operation method of being whereby we effectively co-create a better reality for us all because we are blocked from broadly achieving this operational methodology because of a religious paradigm accepted by far too many as fact and, to a far greater extent, accepted within the deeper sub-conscious that it may be fact.

There can be no greater understanding than the actual "how" "the individual conscious agent" functions within and affects the full reality experience as to the form of manifestation of the actual shared reality(s) we experience.

This is how the individual impacts all.

And it is up to each individual to achieve these understandings. IMO it is the 100% fullest responsibility of each and every individual at each and every level of their individuated experience, whether within this "ordinary reality" (some call call physicality, some call the material realm) or from the anchored viewpoint of a possible extended reality (or sub level within extended reality). This is the Grand Cosmic Game to use a metaphor. And a Left Hand Path oriented understanding (understanding and acting on one's own personal responsibility as tenet #1) is, for me, T H E - V I E W - T O - H O L D. It is separate from one's personal position with regards to themselves as an individuated conscious agent and one's view towards other individuated conscious agents.

What I also like in your post, Baccarat, is your pointing out one's "moral codes." I don't need an external framework telling me what is right or wrong or pushing on me what is right or wrong. I only owe it to myself to bring forth from within what I think and feel is right or wrong. Yet, what is a fact about this "ordinary reality" we share, there are those who threaten the future or others to continue to share this "ordinary reality." So this makes "Earth Game" within the Grand Cosmic Game" an interesting sub-level (where "intensity" is its number one feature).

This means we have to form collectives, collective norms whereby society can protect the opportunity for all conscious agents that manifest in bodily form within this "Earth Game" sub-reality to have a.) a right to a future, unbroken/continuous individuated experience (prior to physical death - the end of the sub-game) and b.) that each individual experiences the freedom to feel alive, to have the opportunity to love life while c.) not threatening the opportunity of others to experience a fulfilling a.) and b.) and then d.) what do we do with those who cross lines where they can be assessed properly and to each, their own proper degree, so that we can strive to provide them an opportunity to reform or where we must take measures to protect the rest of society.

And we must accept that none of the above is likely to be done perfectly. And further to that not very many of us would unanimously agree as to what would be considered perfect.
 
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pls ask John Brisson... he was my source... and repost if possible.
Okay, I’ve been in touch with John Brisson, he informed me that James Toward was listed on the dedication page of Satan’s Silence. In my copy there is no such page or any reference to anything about the Toward case anywhere in the book. John is currently occupied, but has told me he will check his copy later in the week.

He also informed me Ross Cheit referenced this in The Witch Hunt Narrative. Indeed, on page 116 Cheit claims Toward is mentioned on the dedication page not present in my copy. On page 137 Cheit goes on to say this is the only time the case is mentioned.

What we have then is Nathan might have mentioned Toward’s name once on a dedication page that was at some stage removed from the book. I can’t see any evidence she has ever written on the case beyond that.
 

Alex

Administrator
Alex, could you please define the three levels, as in your stated preference for level 3 dialog. Merci!
sure... for example:

Level one: Are we biological robots in a meaningless universe? Let's deconstruct Dean Radin's Six Sigma result on presentiment in an attempt to answer the question.

Level two: Why are seemingly intelligent and fair-minded scientists unable to deal with the above result... even when he bends over backwards to play by their rules. Why do they distort, misinform and "intentionally deceive" (remembering Rupert Sheldrake's comment about Richard Wiseman)? Is there a hidden agenda?

Level three: What are the implications of Dean Radin's presentiment experiment? It seems to point to an extended Consciousness that is outside of our space-time. This would seem to undermine some fundamental assumptions scientists made about "reality "and our ability to measure it.
 
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sure... for example:

Level one: Are we biological robots in a meaningless universe? Let's deconstruct Dean Radin's Six Sigma result on presentiment in an attempt to answer the question.

Level two: Why are seemingly intelligent and fair-minded scientists unable to deal with the above result... even when he bends over backwards to play by their rules. Why do they distort, misinform and "intentionally deceive" (remembering Rupert Sheldrake's comment about Richard Wiseman)? Is there a hidden agenda?

Level three: What are the implications of Dean Radin's presentiment experiment? It seems to point to an extended Consciousness that is outside of our space-time. This would seem to undermine some fundamental assumptions scientists made about "reality "and our ability to measure it.
If consciousness is beyond space and time wouldn't that leave NDE to be produced by brain chemicals since the proceeds of dying is still in this realm? Where do we draw the line?
 
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Alex, I’ve listened to every one of your podcasts. If people are leaving, then that’s OK. We all merge and diverge as we follow our own road. As you’ve said all along, this path you are on is your path. I listen to a lot of podcasts on a lot of subjects. I’m still as fascinated now as ever. Do I like contemplating evil for the acts? Absolutely not. My heart breaks for the victims. But I think you are on to a critically fascinating open ended question on the nature of conciousbess and possibly forces abundantly present within our universe. It’s challenging as hell to face the possibilities.
 
PS... the long format shows are the way to go if your guests are up for it. It doesn’t seem like, in most podcasts, the meat of what people want to hear and think about comes out right always. A collaborative critical though processes has to be allowed to establish, and that usually doesn’t happen until hour 2. Hour 1 always tends to be just framing the discussion and getting the disclaimers out of the way. This seems to be true for any real discussion podcast format. It’s why network programming is so unsatisfying in many ways. The problem still exists today in the overly processed, legacy media folks trying their hand at podcasts. IMHO they are coming up short compared to the independent shows like yours that don’t answer to marketing and cancel culture type controls.
 
I contacted Debbie Nathan and asked her if a dedication page mentioning James Toward had been removed from the 2nd edition of the book. Here’s her reply:


‘Indeed, Mike Snedeker and I did include the James Toward in our 1995 (original edition) list of the falsely accused.

‘The material in Cheit doesn't address the issues I've since uncovered with that case. I don't want to go into them publicly because the records I got were given to me confidentially. Suffice to say that there is strong evidence that Toward was sexually exploiting and abusing older children (almost all older teenagers though some younger). These victims were not students at the preschool. The full story is actually fascinating--I hope to be able to do that eventually. Some of this was mentioned in contemporaneous news accounts from Stuart Beach. You could find them in the local newspaper.'

‘PS: Yes, the 1995 edition (Basic Books) had a dedication page and we removed it in 2001 for the IUniverse edition because almost everyone by then was out of prison. (As I recall, the dedication page was confined to everyone still incarcerated.)’
 
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lonevoice

sure... for example:

Level one: Are we biological robots in a meaningless universe? Let's deconstruct Dean Radin's Six Sigma result on presentiment in an attempt to answer the question.

Level two: Why are seemingly intelligent and fair-minded scientists unable to deal with the above result... even when he bends over backwards to play by their rules. Why do they distort, misinform and "intentionally deceive" (remembering Rupert Sheldrake's comment about Richard Wiseman)? Is there a hidden agenda?

Level three: What are the implications of Dean Radin's presentiment experiment? It seems to point to an extended Consciousness that is outside of our space-time. This would seem to undermine some fundamental assumptions scientists made about "reality "and our ability to measure it.
Many thanks, Alex. Are you familiar with panentheism? A good discussion is in Beyond Physicalism, a follow on to the masterful book Irreducuble Mind by the gang at the center of NDE research at the U of VA.
 
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Alex

Administrator
Alex, I’ve listened to every one of your podcasts. If people are leaving, then that’s OK. We all merge and diverge as we follow our own road.
thx Skep... I've always felt similarly. I think back about all the great people I've meet thru skeptiko... so cool... but just as yr saying some folks do move on... and that's gotta be ok.
 

Alex

Administrator
PS... the long format shows are the way to go if your guests are up for it. It doesn’t seem like, in most podcasts, the meat of what people want to hear and think about comes out right always. A collaborative critical though processes has to be allowed to establish, and that usually doesn’t happen until hour 2. Hour 1 always tends to be just framing the discussion and getting the disclaimers out of the way. This seems to be true for any real discussion podcast format. It’s why network programming is so unsatisfying in many ways. The problem still exists today in the overly processed, legacy media folks trying their hand at podcasts. IMHO they are coming up short compared to the independent shows like yours that don’t answer to marketing and cancel culture type controls.
I get yr point. I've tried to open myself up to stretching out to longer format when it feels right... and when guests are willing.
 

Alex

Administrator
I contacted Debbie Nathan and asked her if a dedication page mentioning James Toward had been removed from the 2nd edition of the book. Here’s her reply:


‘Indeed, Mike Snedeker and I did include the James Toward in our 1995 (original edition) list of the falsely accused.

‘The material in Cheit doesn't address the issues I've since uncovered with that case. I don't want to go into them publicly because the records I got were given to me confidentially. Suffice to say that there is strong evidence that Toward was sexually exploiting and abusing older children (almost all older teenagers though some younger). These victims were not students at the preschool. The full story is actually fascinating--I hope to be able to do that eventually. Some of this was mentioned in contemporaneous news accounts from Stuart Beach. You could find them in the local newspaper.'

‘PS: Yes, the 1995 edition (Basic Books) had a dedication page and we removed it in 2001 for the IUniverse edition because almost everyone by then was out of prison. (As I recall, the dedication page was confined to everyone still incarcerated.)’
how does this jive w/ yr personal investigation of the Toward case?
 
@Mishelle - two things... regarding the Ken Wilber book, One Taste... though you get a sense of the human being, Ken Wilber (aka as the "Bald Ego" by some), the gold you can mine is found in the specific segments where he addresses consciousness, self, the Absolute, etc... matters related to the deepest esoteric, philosophical explorations one might probe in contemplative exploratory processes - meditation, contemplative "prayer" etc.

The other book I mentioned is a "Pro-Left Hand Path" POV and how I approached the book was as an investigator attempting to learn and maybe understand why someone might be attracted to any of the forms of Left Hand Path practice. The book does not go all the way. What is all the way? What I call Left and Down... which means - the dark "Satanic" practices that are purported to exists and are directly targeted by Brisson and dicsussed in this thread. The benefit in exploring this material is that one can get a better clue into the mindset of folks who "lean Left Hand Path" and thus are ripe to be more successfully recruited into the the really dark stuff. This is not a faint warning I am sharing.

I will work on listing what I would have to include in my current top five as a few books this last year have emerged as taking the spot of previous place holders - Diana Pasulka's American Cosmic is a candidate for me.
I started reading Lords of the Left-Hand Path, interesting, I appreciate the recommendation. This is definitely not something I’d have chosen otherwise. Still, lots to learn from it, as you say, as a philosophical exploration. I’m glad for the overview into eastern traditions and already bored by the author. It seems so odd to me when a man can explore the world, literally and intellectually, and still be so damn dull. Now there’s a worldly mystery! :)
 
I started reading Lords of the Left-Hand Path, interesting, I appreciate the recommendation. This is definitely not something I’d have chosen otherwise. Still, lots to learn from it, as you say, as a philosophical exploration. I’m glad for the overview into eastern traditions and already bored by the author. It seems so odd to me when a man can explore the world, literally and intellectually, and still be so damn dull. Now there’s a worldly mystery! :)
How I view the book is much like what was supposedly attributed to General Patton when he saw a turn towards victory of the US forces in North Africa which is depicted in the movie "Patton." At the moment Patton realized the US had taken the upper hand he exclaimed,

“Rommel, You Magnificent Bastard. I Read Your Book!”
https://www.trendfollowing.com/2012/01/13/rommel-you-magnificent-bastard-i-read-your-book/

The Erwin Rommel book in question is most likely to be Infantry Attacks, published in the middle of the 30’s as ‘Infanterie greift an’. It discusses the Stoßtruppen tactics used in the first world war. Reading as many books as possible on a subject, especially by your competitor, may just give you the advantage you need to win

The point is that by reading and understanding Rommel's views on tank warfare, Patton was able to manage "the battle" in a way that led to victory.

I am glad you posted in a way that you did not suggest I was "promoting" some or all of those views. I do believe in one thing though that is greatly emphasized with regards to Left Hand Path... and that is the importance one accepts and exhibits as to one's personal responsibility.

The "boring" you seem to experience, I understand, yet also... I understand that he was (may still be) a university professor and he wrote the book as a university professor must or risk losing one's professorship. For me, the best chapter is with regards to the Temple of Set and Michael Aquino. It also received Flower's clear preference as the best Left Hand Path organization/movement.

I, personally, do not share a philosophy that requires or heavily promotes "ritual magick." I practice my own form of "magick" that I call clear magick which intentionally avoids "formation of a specific outcome" via a magickal process.
 
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how does this jive w/ yr personal investigation of the Toward case?
Well I really haven't done one. The only reason I can even jump into this conversation is because I've previously read Debbie Nathan's book a couple of times. She doesn't cover this case, so the entirety of my knowledge comes from John Brisson's two videos.

In the first one he goes through Ross Cheit's section on the case. It's highly convincing, but herein lies my problem and point about this whole thing. I've already found Cheit to be at best slanted and at worst dishonest in his reporting of the McMartin case. Even if he's entirely correct about Toward, I would have no basis for trusting him. I'd have to extend this to John Brisson too, as he seems to quote Cheit uncritically.

The other one is the interview with Henry 'Skip' Clements. Again it's compelling as he did a direct investigation and found bottles of chloroform etc. Frankly it would be surprising if a man (Toward) who everyone agrees sexually abused children wasn't doing so at the daycare he ran. I'm certainly open to Nathan having her own ideological blindness. I'll pass the interviews on to her and see if she has any comment.
 
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What's interesting about the video I posted (should interview him) around the 35 minute mark we share a similar concept of death. You're personality is a combination of chemistry that creates you, you're personality. When you die it begins to separate, pretty much the sum of the parts do no define the whole. Check out the 34 minute to 39 minute mark. Wow mind blown
When the energy leave the body it begins to break down in to its own individual existences
 
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