John the Baptist - a Drowner?

Psiclops

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I found this rather bizarre quote in a Sheldrake book 'look inside' on Amazon.

While expounding the merits of the various Christian denominations, he says: “The Baptists keep alive the idea of an initiation, a rite of passage, much more strongly than any other Christian tradition. Baptism by total immersion is potentially a near death experience and my own view is that John the Baptist was a drowner. If you hold people under the water long enough, they are bound to have a near death experience: leaving their body, seeing the light, coming back again and life never being the same – they really do feel they’ve been born again. All these traditional Christian beliefs make sense if baptism was originally a rite of passage that involved near-death experience”

Seems a bit of a dodgy way to initiate NDEs! A kind of Biblical forerunner to the Flatliners movie......
 
Shamans used to undergo similar extreme initiation rites, often times pushing their lives on the edge of death.

Shamanic initiation is a series of experiences that “calls, trains and prepares a person to become a shaman.”¹ The initial call from the helping spirits often involves a life crisis, such as near-death, accident or serious illness.

Initiation is an opportunity to connect with the inner life of the spirit, laying the groundwork for realizing and using the great gifts and unimaginable potential stored within.

There are three big stages in the initiatory process: suffering, death, and resurrection.² When looked at from the outside, you may think — why would anyone want to participate in this? But from the inside, initiation is often what we have been longing for — ecstatic connections with the power of the universe and the revelation of who we truly are.
Source: http://www.shamanicuniverse.com/shamanic-initiation.html
 
Sounds more Dan Brown than Rupert Sheldrake. I need a second opinion, with historical sources. Most Christian groups favour infant baptism. Are they really going to risk drowning babies? I smell hokum.
 
Sounds more Dan Brown than Rupert Sheldrake. I need a second opinion, with historical sources. Most Christian groups favour infant baptism. Are they really going to risk drowning babies? I smell hokum.
But infant baptism isn't by total immersion - the priest holds the child over a font and sprinkles water over it.

Baptists and Pentecostalists have a special 'baptistry' - like a small swimming pool - in the churches and some fundamentalists sects still baptise in a river or the sea.

I know because my father was a hot gospel preacher and I got talked into being baptised in church as a boy.

But it's a quick plunge in and out - no mystical experiences, just a few 'Praise Gods' and 'Hallelujahs' from the congregation.
 
But infant baptism isn't by total immersion - the priest holds the child over a font and sprinkles water over it.

Baptists and Pentecostalists have a special 'baptistry' - like a small swimming pool - in the churches and some fundamentalists sects still baptise in a river or the sea.

I know because my father was a hot gospel preacher and I got talked into being baptised in church as a boy.

But it's a quick plunge in and out - no mystical experiences, just a few 'Praise Gods' and 'Hallelujahs' from the congregation.
Precisely. Is there any evidence of extended immersion? I think there's an elision between a symbolic act and a real one being made to join a few dots that don't exist. Physiologically, the line between inducing an NDE and killing the person is vague even with modern medicine's tracking apparatus. In amateur hands this proposal would lead to a body count for which there is no record I'm aware of. My BS meter is completely in the red zone.
 
I suspect there may be some basis for this. Many ceremonial acts have at their heart, some long-forgotten basis in fact. Religions don't spring fully-formed from a vacuum, there are other ancient traditions which seem to suggest the resurrection of initiates. Possibly the full-on ceremonies, regardless of risk, were limited in number and reserved for the innermost circles among the priesthood (of whatever religion), rather than shared openly with the masses. Maybe even a simple practicality of the need to limit the use of a risky procedure, was neatly combined with the rather too convenient one of a controlling hierarchy.

It is the modern widespread occurrence of the NDE phenomenon, enabled by advances in medical capabilities, which may be unpicking this structure, by simultaneously releasing the secret knowledge into the masses, as well as dismantling the controlling structures which formerly accompanied it it.
 
I found this rather bizarre quote in a Sheldrake book 'look inside' on Amazon.

While expounding the merits of the various Christian denominations, he says: “The Baptists keep alive the idea of an initiation, a rite of passage, much more strongly than any other Christian tradition. Baptism by total immersion is potentially a near death experience and my own view is that John the Baptist was a drowner. If you hold people under the water long enough, they are bound to have a near death experience: leaving their body, seeing the light, coming back again and life never being the same – they really do feel they’ve been born again. All these traditional Christian beliefs make sense if baptism was originally a rite of passage that involved near-death experience”

Seems a bit of a dodgy way to initiate NDEs! A kind of Biblical forerunner to the Flatliners movie......

That's how Rudolph Steiner claimed baptisms were performed at that time, at least by John The Baptist. It think Edgar Cayce said the same, but don't quote me on that.

EDIT: well, he never used the word NDE, more like, held under long enough to induce a mystical experience, or something along those lines
 
Let's be realistic. Being held under water for a long time induces panic, not enlightenment. Once you begin breathing in water, you'll drown. Some drowners have NDEs, but no more than any other method of dying, and the risk of cardiac arrest and brain damage is high. As a way of scaring the shit out of someone, it's terrific. As a method of inducing spiritual enlightenment, it doesn't add up. I spent a lot of time in a pool this summer, and at one point I swam four lengths underwater, which takes quite some time. All I induced was a serious headache.
 
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Let's be realistic. Being held under water for a long time induces panic, not enlightenment. Once you begin breathing in water, you'll drown. Some drowners have NDEs, but no more than any other method of dying, and the risk of cardiac arrest and brain damage is high. As a way of scaring the shit out of someone, it's terrific. As a method of inducing spiritual enlightenment, it doesn't add up. I spent a lot of time in a pool this summer, and at one point I swam four lengths underwater, which takes quite some time. All I induced was a serious headache.

I sure wouldn't want to do it, but don't forget we're talking about a guy who lived in the desert on scraps for food, wore clothing that was as comfortable as wearing a large Brillo pad so he wouldn't think about girls, and was willing to be beheaded for his cause. Trying to induce a mystical experience via lack of oxygen seems to fit into that list of activities just fine ;-)

Steiner said the folks coming to the baptism knew what they were in for and it was only successful for a small percent, as far as inducing a meaningful experience, IIRC. I don't know if I buy into it myself, but just passing it along since it jived up with the OP.

EDIT: Again though, Steiner never said NDE. More like what Bernardo talks about when he gives his examples of what folks do to achieve similar experiences via lack of oxygen. The only one I can remember is the teen "suffocation game".
 
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I found this rather bizarre quote in a Sheldrake book 'look inside' on Amazon.

While expounding the merits of the various Christian denominations, he says: “The Baptists keep alive the idea of an initiation, a rite of passage, much more strongly than any other Christian tradition. Baptism by total immersion is potentially a near death experience and my own view is that John the Baptist was a drowner. If you hold people under the water long enough, they are bound to have a near death experience: leaving their body, seeing the light, coming back again and life never being the same – they really do feel they’ve been born again. All these traditional Christian beliefs make sense if baptism was originally a rite of passage that involved near-death experience”

Seems a bit of a dodgy way to initiate NDEs! A kind of Biblical forerunner to the Flatliners movie......

There is little doubt in my mind that early rituals like baptism (which has much earlier pre-Christian roots), and fear death type rites of passage etc. were probably ways of attempting to effect some type of near death experience.
 
Let's be realistic. Being held under water for a long time induces panic, not enlightenment. Once you begin breathing in water, you'll drown. Some drowners have NDEs, but no more than any other method of dying, and the risk of cardiac arrest and brain damage is high. As a way of scaring the shit out of someone, it's terrific. As a method of inducing spiritual enlightenment, it doesn't add up. I spent a lot of time in a pool this summer, and at one point I swam four lengths underwater, which takes quite some time. All I induced was a serious headache.

It's lasted a lot longer then setting people on fire as a baptism IMHO.
 
Follow the evidence. It leads elsewhere. People are projecting. It's a cleaning ritual. Show me one piece of historical data that baptism was an attempt to induce an out of body experience.
 
There is little doubt in my mind that early rituals like baptism (which has much earlier pre-Christian roots), and fear death type rites of passage etc. were probably ways of attempting to effect some type of near death experience.
Go on, I'll rise to the bait.

Why is there no doubt in your mind?
 
Follow the evidence. It leads elsewhere. People are projecting. It's a cleaning ritual. Show me one piece of historical data that baptism was an attempt to induce an out of body experience.

Rereading some of this stuff online... you might be right...
 
Well I actually said '...little doubt...' and not 'no doubt', but in any case I think after rereading some stuff over the past hour, I'm far less certain about this than I was when I wrote that.

Little doubt suggests to me a person is confident. How do you go from 'little doubt' to being far less certain in an hour? What led to there being 'little doubt' in your mind in the first place?
 
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