Joseph Atwill, Why the Bible is Pro-Roman |464|

#21
It may well be that Atwill has an answer to that - and indeed I hope he will join us on the furum!
He doesn't, and he won't.

Atwill is a bored, rich crank who regurgitates the work of others, without attribution, and without much critical investigation, simply to amuse himself.

I've watched Atwill for years. He wants to be a Conspiracy Theorist, but is too lazy to do any research himself.
 
#22
He doesn't, and he won't.

Atwill is a bored, rich crank who regurgitates the work of others, without attribution, and without much critical investigation, simply to amuse himself.

I've watched Atwill for years. He wants to be a Conspiracy Theorist, but is too lazy to do any research himself.
You may be right, but you still need to explain the parallels with Josephus that Atwill uncovered. I reckon I might have just cracked it, see above, though perhaps others have already said this before me.. I’m just discovering it for myself for the first time and the penny has really dropped!
 
#25
I'm going to play the devil's advocate: So the Bible is a piece of social engineering. Great. What's wrong with that? Serious question. Do we get mad at engineers for coaxing iron out of rock and making a building? Structures are pretty cool. Why is social engineering the only form of engineering we consider to be "evil"? A human being needs an operating system. A religion provides a GUI and handy dialog boxes with "yes" "no" and warnings etc. Not all humans are mentally equipped to hack their own systems with Kali Linux.

In the podcast, Joe said that deception is unequivocally immoral. That seems to be the main rub with social engineering is that at some point, despite its many possible or actual pros, you run into deceptions. We can argue whether these are noble lies or a cynical egoic power grabs or a mix of both.

This recent podcast with Jason Reza Jorjani is well worth the listen. Before talking about his opposition to the Elite's latest social engineering efforts and breakaway civilization, he first makes their case for them and that is what I've been trying to do myself the last few months.

We're faced with two revolutions: the "spectral revolution" as Jason calls it and the technological singularity. Both of these threaten power structures and make the future completely unstable, unpredictable, and quite possibly a dystopian nightmare. On top of these we have a population explosion and that growth is not occurring from the best and brightest but in the poorest and least developed. The best case the elites can make is that humanity is not ready to be trusted with either the power of the technological singularity or the power of the "spectral" (e.g. recognizing and developing psi abilities) and that we have entered a progress trap which threatens to bring a greater destruction unless we "inoculate" the population with smaller controlled disasters that cull and goad the herd into a managed state.

My nature is to yearn for "Freeeedoooommm" and to side with Jason and Prometheus, but I have to be pragmatic as well and recognize that power structures will always exist and humanity will not progress morally, genetically, spiritually, economically, without some organized effort to engineer that. The Bible, with all its faults, seems to be an effort at that, and when the Catholic church lost its monopoly on the Bible with the Gutenberg press, it caused a revolution, an increase in individual freedom, and a renaissance in the arts and sciences. So the Bible seems to contain some of the most successful social engineering to date.

That said, I am still dreading going back to Church which my wife has decided we will do this very Sunday... I have promised to keep my unorthodox opinions to myself and not scare away potential friends. She's not strictly Christian either, but for the sake of our children we want some form of traditional communal and moral structure. I don't know... we'll see how it goes.
 
#27
When you get there, grab a Bible and flip to the index.
I didn't know they had one! Anyway, you normally only get a prayer book and hymn book as I remember it!

That said, I am still dreading going back to Church which my wife has decided we will do this very Sunday... I have promised to keep my unorthodox opinions to myself and not scare away potential friends. She's not strictly Christian either, but for the sake of our children we want some form of traditional communal and moral structure. I don't know... we'll see how it goes.
I think you should report back and tell us how it went!

David
 
#29
I get your point to a certain extent, but isn't it really about one's relationship with god / christ consciousness. isn't that what really matters here?

as soon as we start giving power to "gospels" we start slipping IMO.
Thanks, Alex. No offense intended but have you ever carefully and thoughtfully read the Gospels? That's really all it takes to fall in love with Jesus. His directions for us and His promise for us are found nowhere else. they have no equal in bringing hope to our suffering bodies and Souls in this demonically controlled and evil world. the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John total a mere 250 or so pages. Hardly more than a booklet. Compare this with all the other lengthy literary bullshit we readily seem to have time for... and which leave us puzzled. Jesus does not leave us, certainly not me puzzled. Kind regards, ~g
 
#31
Yes it says liars will burn. It also says the Lord sent a lying spirit to go deceive a king.
And a lot more...

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV / 1,741 helpful votes

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
Proverbs 12:22 ESV / 1,675 helpful votes

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.
Proverbs 19:9 ESV / 1,474 helpful votes

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.
Psalm 101:7 ESV / 1,157 helpful votes

No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.
Proverbs 12:19 ESV / 929 helpful votes

Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Colossians 3:9-10 ESV / 919 helpful votes

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Luke 8:17 ESV / 775 helpful votes

For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
John 8:44 ESV / 629 helpful votes

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Ephesians 4:25 ESV / 599 helpful votes

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
Exodus 20:16 ESV / 591 helpful votes

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
1 John 2:4 ESV / 587 helpful votes

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
Revelation 21:8 ESV / 526 helpful votes

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Proverbs 19:5 ESV / 497 helpful votes

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.
1 John 1:9 ESV / 443 helpful votes

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Leviticus 19:11 ESV / 426 helpful votes

“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.
Proverbs 24:28 ESV / 399 helpful votes

Be not a witness against your neighbor without cause, and do not deceive with your lips.
Matthew 15:18-20 ESV / 348 helpful votes

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Proverbs 21:6 ESV / 341 helpful votes

The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a fleeting vapor and a snare of death.
Psalm 58:3 ESV / 325 helpful votes

The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Proverbs 14:5 ESV / 324 helpful votes

A faithful witness does not lie, but a false witness breathes out lies.
James 3:14 ESV / 306 helpful votes

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
John 8:32 ESV / 289 helpful votes

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Proverbs 26:18-19 ESV / 280 helpful votes

Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I am only joking!”
Romans 12:17-21 ESV / 279 helpful votes

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Psalm 109:2 ESV / 278 helpful votes

For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues.
Proverbs 13:5 ESV / 273 helpful votes

The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace.
John 8:43-47 ESV / 263 helpful votes

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Colossians 3:9 ESV / 259 helpful votes

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Proverbs 26:28 ESV / 233 helpful votes

A lying tongue hates its victims, and a flattering mouth works ruin.
Numbers 23:19 ESV / 233 helpful votes

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
James 1:26 ESV / 227 helpful votes

If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Psalm 34:13 ESV / 220 helpful votes

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
Revelation 21:7-8 ESV / 209 helpful votes

The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
1 John 4:1 ESV / 203 helpful votes

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Psalm 119:163 ESV / 170 helpful votes

I hate and abhor falsehood, but I love your law.
Proverbs 17:7 ESV / 163 helpful votes

Fine speech is not becoming to a fool; still less is false speech to a prince.
Titus 1:2 ESV / 160 helpful votes

In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV / 157 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Proverbs 12:5 ESV / 157 helpful votes

The thoughts of the righteous are just; the counsels of the wicked are deceitful.
1 Kings 22:21-23 ESV / 157 helpful votes

Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
Luke 16:10 ESV / 155 helpful votes

“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.
Proverbs 14:25 ESV / 149 helpful votes

A truthful witness saves lives, but one who breathes out lies is deceitful.
2 Chronicles 18:20-22 ESV / 144 helpful votes

Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The Lord has declared disaster concerning you.”
Luke 8:15 ESV / 143 helpful votes

As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
Proverbs 19:22 ESV / 143 helpful votes

What is desired in a man is steadfast love, and a poor man is better than a liar.
Zephaniah 3:13 ESV / 137 helpful votes

Those who are left in Israel; they shall do no injustice and speak no lies, nor shall there be found in their mouth a deceitful tongue. For they shall graze and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.”
Hosea 4:2 ESV / 135 helpful votes

There is swearing, lying, murder, stealing, and committing adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
Psalm 34:12-13 ESV / 132 helpful votes

What man is there who desires life and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
Hebrews 6:18 ESV / 131 helpful votes

So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.
Psalm 120:2 ESV / 131 helpful votes

Deliver me, O Lord, from lying lips, from a deceitful tongue.
Psalm 31:18 ESV / 129 helpful votes

Let the lying lips be mute, which speak insolently against the righteous in pride and contempt.
1 Peter 3:10 ESV / 126 helpful votes

For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit;
Genesis 3:4 ESV / 124 helpful votes

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV / 122 helpful votes

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Jeremiah 23:32 ESV / 119 helpful votes

Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, declares the Lord, and who tell them and lead my people astray by their lies and their recklessness, when I did not send them or charge them. So they do not profit this people at all, declares the Lord.
Psalm 51:6 ESV / 119 helpful votes

Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Psalm 5:6 ESV / 118 helpful votes

You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Matthew 5:11 ESV / 117 helpful votes

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Psalm 119:69 ESV / 117 helpful votes

The insolent smear me with lies, but with my whole heart I keep your precepts;
1 Timothy 4:2 ESV / 114 helpful votes

Through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,
Psalm 119:29 ESV / 112 helpful votes

Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!
Proverbs 26:24 ESV / 110 helpful votes

Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart;
John 14:6 ESV / 107 helpful votes

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Psalm 59:12 ESV / 107 helpful votes

For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips, let them be trapped in their pride. For the cursing and lies that they utter,
Revelation 22:15 ESV / 106 helpful votes

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Exodus 23:1 ESV / 106 helpful votes

“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.
Romans 10:9 ESV / 105 helpful votes

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Isaiah 32:7 ESV / 103 helpful votes

As for the scoundrel—his devices are evil; he plans wicked schemes to ruin the poor with lying words, even when the plea of the needy is right.
Proverbs 11:1 ESV / 102 helpful votes

A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is his delight.
Zechariah 8:16 ESV / 98 helpful votes

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
John 3:16-21 ESV / 97 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. ...
Proverbs 10:18 ESV / 96 helpful votes

The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.
2 Chronicles 18:19-22 ESV / 95 helpful votes

And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The Lord has declared disaster concerning you.”
Proverbs 25:18 ESV / 94 helpful votes

A man who bears false witness against his neighbor is like a war club, or a sword, or a sharp arrow.
Acts 5:3 ESV / 93 helpful votes

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Deuteronomy 5:20 ESV / 93 helpful votes

“‘And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
James 5:12 ESV / 87 helpful votes

But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.
Revelation 21:27 ESV / 86 helpful votes

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Proverbs 20:17 ESV / 86 helpful votes

Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, but afterward his mouth will be full of gravel.
Matthew 18:15-17 ESV / 85 helpful votes

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Romans 16:17-18 ESV / 83 helpful votes

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Nahum 3:1 ESV / 82 helpful votes

Woe to the bloody city, all full of lies and plunder— no end to the prey!
Leviticus 19:11-12 ESV / 82 helpful votes

“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.
Matthew 7:15 ESV / 81 helpful votes

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Proverbs 17:4 ESV / 81 helpful votes

An evildoer listens to wicked lips, and a liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue.
Revelation 2:2 ESV / 80 helpful votes

“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV / 79 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
Matthew 5:37 ESV / 78 helpful votes

Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
Leviticus 6:1-7 ESV / 78 helpful votes

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “If anyone sins and commits a breach of faith against the Lord by deceiving his neighbor in a matter of deposit or security, or through robbery, or if he has oppressed his neighbor or has found something lost and lied about it, swearing falsely—in any of all the things that people do and sin thereby— if he has sinned and has realized his guilt and will restore what he took by robbery or what he got by oppression or the deposit that was committed to him or the lost thing that he found or anything about which he has sworn falsely, he shall restore it in full and shall add a fifth to it, and give it to him to whom it belongs on the day he realizes his guilt. ...
Psalm 55:23 ESV / 77 helpful votes

But you, O God, will cast them down into the pit of destruction; men of blood and treachery shall not live out half their days. But I will trust in you.
Micah 6:12 ESV / 72 helpful votes

Your rich men are full of violence; your inhabitants speak lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.
Proverbs 10:9 ESV / 71 helpful votes

Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out.
Joshua 2:4-6 ESV / 71 helpful votes

But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. And she said, “True, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. And when the gate was about to be closed at dark, the men went out. I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them.” But she had brought them up to the roof and hid them with the stalks of flax that she had laid in order on the roof.
Ephesians 4:15 ESV / 67 helpful votes

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Ezekiel 13:19 ESV / 66 helpful votes

You have profaned me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, putting to death souls who should not die and keeping alive souls who should not live, by your lying to my people, who listen to lies.
Matthew 7:1-2 ESV / 64 helpful votes

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Psalm 62:4 ESV / 64 helpful votes

They only plan to thrust him down from his high position. They take pleasure in falsehood. They bless with their mouths, but inwardly they curse. Selah
Psalm 44:21 ESV / 64 helpful votes

Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
Psalm 1:1-6 ESV / 63 helpful votes

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; ...
 
#32
And a lot more...

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV / 1,741 helpful votes

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
Proverbs 12:22 ESV / 1,675 helpful votes

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.
Proverbs 19:9 ESV / 1,474 helpful votes

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.
Psalm 101:7 ESV / 1,157 helpful votes

No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.
Proverbs 12:19 ESV / 929 helpful votes

Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Colossians 3:9-10 ESV / 919 helpful votes

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Luke 8:17 ESV / 775 helpful votes

For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
John 8:44 ESV / 629 helpful votes

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Ephesians 4:25 ESV / 599 helpful votes

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
Exodus 20:16 ESV / 591 helpful votes

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
1 John 2:4 ESV / 587 helpful votes

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
Revelation 21:8 ESV / 526 helpful votes

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Proverbs 19:5 ESV / 497 helpful votes

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.
1 John 1:9 ESV / 443 helpful votes

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Leviticus 19:11 ESV / 426 helpful votes

“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.
Proverbs 24:28 ESV / 399 helpful votes

Be not a witness against your neighbor without cause, and do not deceive with your lips.
Matthew 15:18-20 ESV / 348 helpful votes

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Proverbs 21:6 ESV / 341 helpful votes

The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a fleeting vapor and a snare of death.
Psalm 58:3 ESV / 325 helpful votes

The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Proverbs 14:5 ESV / 324 helpful votes

A faithful witness does not lie, but a false witness breathes out lies.
James 3:14 ESV / 306 helpful votes

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
John 8:32 ESV / 289 helpful votes

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Proverbs 26:18-19 ESV / 280 helpful votes

Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I am only joking!”
Romans 12:17-21 ESV / 279 helpful votes

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Psalm 109:2 ESV / 278 helpful votes

For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues.
Proverbs 13:5 ESV / 273 helpful votes

The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace.
John 8:43-47 ESV / 263 helpful votes

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Colossians 3:9 ESV / 259 helpful votes

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Proverbs 26:28 ESV / 233 helpful votes

A lying tongue hates its victims, and a flattering mouth works ruin.
Numbers 23:19 ESV / 233 helpful votes

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
James 1:26 ESV / 227 helpful votes

If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Psalm 34:13 ESV / 220 helpful votes

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
Revelation 21:7-8 ESV / 209 helpful votes

The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
1 John 4:1 ESV / 203 helpful votes

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Psalm 119:163 ESV / 170 helpful votes

I hate and abhor falsehood, but I love your law.
Proverbs 17:7 ESV / 163 helpful votes

Fine speech is not becoming to a fool; still less is false speech to a prince.
Titus 1:2 ESV / 160 helpful votes

In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV / 157 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Proverbs 12:5 ESV / 157 helpful votes

The thoughts of the righteous are just; the counsels of the wicked are deceitful.
1 Kings 22:21-23 ESV / 157 helpful votes

Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
Luke 16:10 ESV / 155 helpful votes

“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.
Proverbs 14:25 ESV / 149 helpful votes

A truthful witness saves lives, but one who breathes out lies is deceitful.
2 Chronicles 18:20-22 ESV / 144 helpful votes

Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The Lord has declared disaster concerning you.”
Luke 8:15 ESV / 143 helpful votes

As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
Proverbs 19:22 ESV / 143 helpful votes

What is desired in a man is steadfast love, and a poor man is better than a liar.
Zephaniah 3:13 ESV / 137 helpful votes

Those who are left in Israel; they shall do no injustice and speak no lies, nor shall there be found in their mouth a deceitful tongue. For they shall graze and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.”
Hosea 4:2 ESV / 135 helpful votes

There is swearing, lying, murder, stealing, and committing adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
Psalm 34:12-13 ESV / 132 helpful votes

What man is there who desires life and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
Hebrews 6:18 ESV / 131 helpful votes

So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.
Psalm 120:2 ESV / 131 helpful votes

Deliver me, O Lord, from lying lips, from a deceitful tongue.
Psalm 31:18 ESV / 129 helpful votes

Let the lying lips be mute, which speak insolently against the righteous in pride and contempt.
1 Peter 3:10 ESV / 126 helpful votes

For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit;
Genesis 3:4 ESV / 124 helpful votes

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV / 122 helpful votes

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Jeremiah 23:32 ESV / 119 helpful votes

Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, declares the Lord, and who tell them and lead my people astray by their lies and their recklessness, when I did not send them or charge them. So they do not profit this people at all, declares the Lord.
Psalm 51:6 ESV / 119 helpful votes

Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Psalm 5:6 ESV / 118 helpful votes

You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Matthew 5:11 ESV / 117 helpful votes

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Psalm 119:69 ESV / 117 helpful votes

The insolent smear me with lies, but with my whole heart I keep your precepts;
1 Timothy 4:2 ESV / 114 helpful votes

Through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,
Psalm 119:29 ESV / 112 helpful votes

Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!
Proverbs 26:24 ESV / 110 helpful votes

Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart;
John 14:6 ESV / 107 helpful votes

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Psalm 59:12 ESV / 107 helpful votes

For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips, let them be trapped in their pride. For the cursing and lies that they utter,
Revelation 22:15 ESV / 106 helpful votes

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Exodus 23:1 ESV / 106 helpful votes

“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.
Romans 10:9 ESV / 105 helpful votes

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Isaiah 32:7 ESV / 103 helpful votes

As for the scoundrel—his devices are evil; he plans wicked schemes to ruin the poor with lying words, even when the plea of the needy is right.
Proverbs 11:1 ESV / 102 helpful votes

A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, but a just weight is his delight.
Zechariah 8:16 ESV / 98 helpful votes

These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
John 3:16-21 ESV / 97 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. ...
Proverbs 10:18 ESV / 96 helpful votes

The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.
2 Chronicles 18:19-22 ESV / 95 helpful votes

And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The Lord has declared disaster concerning you.”
Proverbs 25:18 ESV / 94 helpful votes

A man who bears false witness against his neighbor is like a war club, or a sword, or a sharp arrow.
Acts 5:3 ESV / 93 helpful votes

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Deuteronomy 5:20 ESV / 93 helpful votes

“‘And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
James 5:12 ESV / 87 helpful votes

But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.
Revelation 21:27 ESV / 86 helpful votes

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Proverbs 20:17 ESV / 86 helpful votes

Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, but afterward his mouth will be full of gravel.
Matthew 18:15-17 ESV / 85 helpful votes

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Romans 16:17-18 ESV / 83 helpful votes

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Nahum 3:1 ESV / 82 helpful votes

Woe to the bloody city, all full of lies and plunder— no end to the prey!
Leviticus 19:11-12 ESV / 82 helpful votes

“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.
Matthew 7:15 ESV / 81 helpful votes

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Proverbs 17:4 ESV / 81 helpful votes

An evildoer listens to wicked lips, and a liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue.
Revelation 2:2 ESV / 80 helpful votes

“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV / 79 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
Matthew 5:37 ESV / 78 helpful votes

Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
Leviticus 6:1-7 ESV / 78 helpful votes

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “If anyone sins and commits a breach of faith against the Lord by deceiving his neighbor in a matter of deposit or security, or through robbery, or if he has oppressed his neighbor or has found something lost and lied about it, swearing falsely—in any of all the things that people do and sin thereby— if he has sinned and has realized his guilt and will restore what he took by robbery or what he got by oppression or the deposit that was committed to him or the lost thing that he found or anything about which he has sworn falsely, he shall restore it in full and shall add a fifth to it, and give it to him to whom it belongs on the day he realizes his guilt. ...
Psalm 55:23 ESV / 77 helpful votes

But you, O God, will cast them down into the pit of destruction; men of blood and treachery shall not live out half their days. But I will trust in you.
Micah 6:12 ESV / 72 helpful votes

Your rich men are full of violence; your inhabitants speak lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.
Proverbs 10:9 ESV / 71 helpful votes

Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out.
Joshua 2:4-6 ESV / 71 helpful votes

But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. And she said, “True, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. And when the gate was about to be closed at dark, the men went out. I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them.” But she had brought them up to the roof and hid them with the stalks of flax that she had laid in order on the roof.
Ephesians 4:15 ESV / 67 helpful votes

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Ezekiel 13:19 ESV / 66 helpful votes

You have profaned me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, putting to death souls who should not die and keeping alive souls who should not live, by your lying to my people, who listen to lies.
Matthew 7:1-2 ESV / 64 helpful votes

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Psalm 62:4 ESV / 64 helpful votes

They only plan to thrust him down from his high position. They take pleasure in falsehood. They bless with their mouths, but inwardly they curse. Selah
Psalm 44:21 ESV / 64 helpful votes

Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
Psalm 1:1-6 ESV / 63 helpful votes

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; ...
Jesus Christ!
 
#33
I usually wind up in somebody's Baptist church because I live in Texas.

I'm curious. What flavor of church did you attend that doesn't have a Bible within arm's reach of every seat?
Church of England over 50 years ago.

I have seen a Bible, but it definitely didn't have an index - though it would be a good innovation.

That "never lie" rule would wipe out the Father Christmas myth overnight.

David
 
#34
Church of England over 50 years ago. I have seen a Bible, but it definitely didn't have an index - though it would be a good innovation.
Interesting! I never even imagined such a thing as a church without Bibles everywhere.

In the Protestant American South where I live Bibles are fetishized. They are like charms or tokens. People give them to me as gifts. Righteous Cowboys keep one on the dash of their truck and have several on their phones. Women are expected to display them proudly somewhere in their home, open to a favored passage, with an expensive embroidered bookmark.

Last Saturday night I was acosted by a guy at a party while trying to enjoy Margaritas. He took offense because I made a joke about Works being as important as Faith. I admit being acosted for theological debates while trying to enjoy some fine Herradura Tequila is tedious. I got rid of him by claiming disadvantage for not having my reading glasses, and thus being unable to read his phone. :)
 
#35
Interesting! I never even imagined such a thing as a church without Bibles everywhere.

In the Protestant American South where I live Bibles are fetishized. They are like charms or tokens. People give them to me as gifts. Righteous Cowboys keep one on the dash of their truck and have several on their phones. Women are expected to display them proudly somewhere in their home, open to a favored passage, with an expensive embroidered bookmark.

Last Saturday night I was acosted by a guy at a party while trying to enjoy Margaritas. He took offense because I made a joke about Works being as important as Faith. I admit being acosted for theological debates while trying to enjoy some fine Herradura Tequila is tedious. I got rid of him by claiming disadvantage for not having my reading glasses, and thus being unable to read his phone. :)
In the Church of England services I've been to, there would be a large bible on a lectern at the front, from which someone would read out loud during the service. But the congregation would participate only in prayers and hymn-singing. Certainly ownership of a bible is expected, but they would be used at home or wherever a person wishes rather than in church.
 
#38
As social engineering projects go, this one appears impervious to being rumbled.

Thus we find ourselves having to ask what a ‘Kingdom of God’ might look like in 21st Century America?
 

Alex

Administrator
#39
We're faced with two revolutions: the "spectral revolution" as Jason calls it and the technological singularity. Both of these threaten power structures and make the future completely unstable, unpredictable, and quite possibly a dystopian nightmare. On top of these we have a population explosion and that growth is not occurring from the best and brightest but in the poorest and least developed. The best case the elites can make is that humanity is not ready to be trusted with either the power of the technological singularity or the power of the "spectral" (e.g. recognizing and developing psi abilities) and that we have entered a progress trap which threatens to bring a greater destruction unless we "inoculate" the population with smaller controlled disasters that cull and goad the herd into a managed state.
depressingly true... who would be a good Skeptiko guests for this topic?


give me one second chance so did your user guide to your landing pages to get them done]
That said, I am still dreading going back to Church which my wife has decided we will do this very Sunday... I have promised to keep my unorthodox opinions to myself and not scare away potential friends. She's not strictly Christian either, but for the sake of our children we want some form of traditional communal and moral structure. I don't know... we'll see how it goes.
I totally get this. we faced the same dilemma. we just kind of stumbled through it. very unsatisfying all the way around.
 

Alex

Administrator
#40
Thanks, Alex. No offense intended but have you ever carefully and thoughtfully read the Gospels? That's really all it takes to fall in love with Jesus. His directions for us and His promise for us are found nowhere else. they have no equal in bringing hope to our suffering bodies and Souls in this demonically controlled and evil world. the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John total a mere 250 or so pages. Hardly more than a booklet. Compare this with all the other lengthy literary bullshit we readily seem to have time for... and which leave us puzzled. Jesus does not leave us, certainly not me puzzled. Kind regards, ~g
do you think one has to use the magic books in order to "fall in love with Jesus?" are the magic books required to have a relationship with him?
 
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