Joseph Atwill, Why the Bible is Pro-Roman |464|

#41
depressingly true... who would be a good Skeptiko guests for this topic?
Jason Jorjani is one of my favorite guests on Jeffrey Mishlove's New Thinking Alowed.

I totally get this. we faced the same dilemma. we just kind of stumbled through it. very unsatisfying all the way around.
Yes, the main thing we need is community... I work remote so I only get out to walk the dog or go to the grocery store... hard to meet people that way. We did invite some new people over for board games last week and that was a lot of fun. I managed to not put my foot in my mouth too much so maybe they'll come back.

I'm not too worried about giving my boy a religious foundation to grow out of though... I think he's going to be extremely smart and curious. By his 1st birthday he already knew all 26 letters and numbers 0-10. He can read a few words, and he really studies things to try and figure out how they work. Anyway, he'll be fine.
 
#42
Haven't listened yet, so.....

Always wondered why a supposed 'perfect all loving' god, exhibits so many negative human traits, expectations, wants, desires.
(rhetorical, as humans created god(s))

I dunno. Humans seem to need rituals as some kind of stabilizing, cohesive glue for societies to function. Humans also absolutely need to have a set of beliefs, even regardless of any evidence whatsoever, in order to anchor themselves to some kind of consensus reality. And the more people who subscribe to that reality the more stable that structure. Has nothing at all to do with intelligence. I'm sure there's part of the brain devoted to all that. Perhaps the only difference in the quality of anyone's particular beliefs is..... that a more intelligent person's beliefs may be derived more from considered logical thought, while a cretins beliefs may be utterly bizarre no matter how you slice it, heh.

Religion does provide a foundation for moral codes, ritual behavior and all that. But there is also the down side to religion which is obvious to all. Of course it doesn't also stop those manipulating that psychology for their own purposes.
 
Last edited:
#43
Another great interview as always Alex. I haven't commented in awhile but I've listened to all your shows, just wish I had more time to discuss further on the forum.

I did want to comment on one thing though because I rarely disagree with you Alex and that's usually what compels me to come on here to comment haha...but towards the end of the interview you said that basically there's no hope. No hope in overthrowing the oligarchy that rules this world. I'd have to disagree. Sure, the odds are slim and stacked against the masses of humanity, but there's always a chance to overcome. I think Joe made a great point about the internet and the ability for people to connect and have access to knowledge like never before. Of course, because of that, the powers that be have made a very concerted effort to pollute this space with disinformation, censor independent media (FB removed like 700-800 independent/alternative news pages a year or two ago, for no good reason....also PropOrNot and their attack on indy media, calling out legit organizations like TruthDig, Counterpunch, etc...signs that perhaps the elite ARE scared of the influence these independent sources are having)....and other tactics. These pages have hundreds of thousands of followers, sometimes millions, so it can, and I think does, influence society at large. Not enough to reach that "tipping point" where the majority start to awaken, but certainly making progress.

As a side note, I recommend everyone watch The Social Dilemma if you haven't already, it's a really important documentary on Netflix. These internet giants like Facebook and YouTube, with their algorithms and goal of keeping us hooked on their platforms and promoting whatever content holds our attention most, intentionally or not, they are distancing us from some semblance of truth and a common acceptance of what's real. This might be part of the elite's plans to reign back the internet and its potential for revolution. It's a double edged sword really. The internet can be a great disseminator of truth....but also of disinformation. Who will win that battle?

But in the end, I still believe (and hope!) the internet can be our savior. Outside some alien race intervening on this planet, it's probably the only way we can really overcome the rule of the oligarchs by ourselves. On a more personal note, I had built a website specifically for this purpose, a website dedicated to truth and helping people organize and facilitate change, but that project did not have the necessary marketing or money behind it to go far enough. Maybe one day I'll try again and perhaps before then I'll share a more detailed essay on my vision for how it would be designed in its ideal state. Then, with the power of the community and brainstorming the best ideas, the platform would only improve and better reflect the needs of the community, as originally intended. Anyway, I'm hoping that is something that interests you Alex and fellow Skeptiko fans, those that are dedicated to truth and care about making this a better world because in these dark times we live in, it's one of the few things that give me hope.
 
Last edited:
#44
Before watching any of those, people might like to watch the following video, where Atwill lays out the essentials of his thesis:


I note that near the end of the video (from about 50 mins, although I recommend watching the whole thing), Atwill points out that the original intention of those who allegedly contructed the NT wasn't a long-term one: they didn't envisage the lasting effects of the formation of Christianity as we now know it, but just did it for purposes of shaping then current politico-military aims. However, they spawned a "monster" that would have incalculable effects on history and politics in a way they couldn't have forseen.

His thesis is interesting and may possess some degree of truth, but one thing that always strikes me is that the constructors, if that is what they were, must have been aware of such things as compassion and love. They may have derided any such sentiments as weak, but nonetheless, they, as controlling members of a pretty barbaric empire, seemed to be aware at some level that there was an alternative way to govern the behaviour of people.

What I ask myself, is whence came this awareness? And is it possible, despite all the alleged cynicism, that they not only constructed something that would, through the ages, help the elites, but also resonate with underlying truths about human nature and purpose and help ordinary people too?

One can draw parallels with present-day events in the USA. Elites are busy creating narratives, ostensibly based on humanitarianism, which some deem to be surreptitiously attempting to ensure that they continue to be in control. Is it a long shot to posit that they're stigmatising the unwashed masses who vote for Trump similarly to how the Romans putatively stigmatised Judaism and Jews? Some say that Trump voters are becoming fair game for violence, and if so, God help us what happens if he wins. It would be contested, of course, and it's possible that TDS people would be at the vanguard of not just opposition, but potential violence.

People may ally themselves with what they think the elites are saying, but the new "monster" has a mind of its own and may eventually devour what spawned it. Unwittingly, those who want to shape events (and control the mass and social media), may be laying the ground for their own destruction.

I'm not supporting the Republicans per se; rather, I'm simply trying to point put as objectively as I can some of what might be going on. It's a complex situation and no one knows exactly how things will turn out. One hopes that the eventual end result will be a better society, but at the same time can't help but be dismayed by what is currently transpiring. I suspect there's radical change afoot and hope that whatever emerges, it will be neither "left", "right" nor indeed "centre" in present terminology. I hope it will in fact be less based on politics and more on commonsense.

This isn't the Trump thread and I don't want to get too much into that subject. All I'm trying to point out here is that Atwill may not be as far out on a limb as it might appear; at least, the kind of thing he's suggesting could have been happening throughout human history -- progress through fits and starts despite the immediate ends of ruling elites.
 
#45
There is a modern parallel to all this: Western intelligence agencies have in the past encouraged and supported Islamic Sufi orders as an antidote to Middle Eastern secular Nationalism. This is because Sufis, being mystical types, are generally less interested in world affairs than both standard Muslims and secular Nationalists. Sufism is, of course, definitely not an invention of Western intelligence agencies.

Similarly the gospels, despite their desert topicality, strike me as outlining a personal spiritual path - something not dissimilar to certain strains of Hinduism and being very close indeed to the philosophical roots of Daoism.

Okay, to be sure, Atwill does point to some striking parallels between the gospels and roman militarism, definitely, no denying it. But I still can't help but feel this to be a rather odd thing for the Romans to have done and I have a few questions.....

1) Did it work? Did Jews convert to Christianity on mass? Gentiles sure did, eventually.
2) Are there not Roman records chronicling the persecution of Christians before Josephus?
3) Why would the Romans persecute Christians to begin with? Why not encourage them?
4) Weren't early Christians persecuted because they refused to honour the cult of Caesar?

I dunno.

He doesn't, and he won't.
Hey Charlie, long time no see. How's the goose-stepping going?

Otherwise, are you still reading up on Orthodox Christianity? For the last year or so, I can't get enough of the stuff - especially those crazy hermits.
 
Last edited:
#46
Joseph Atwill, Why the Bible is Pro-Roman |464|
by Alex Tsakiris | Sep 22 | Skepticism
Share
Tweet
0SHARES

Joseph Atwill’s insights about the relationship between power and religion seem more relevant than ever.

photo by: Skeptiko
[Clip 00:00:00 – 00:00:31]
That’s a clip from Gladiator, and although the movie is fiction, people who really know Roman history, like today’s guest Joseph Atwill, will tell you that the movie is spot on when it comes to the kind of political manipulation, mind control and conspiracy wielding that the Romans had mastered 2000 years ago.
Of course, this movie has another side to it, a very deep interpersonal family and spiritual angle to it, which, as we all know, plays a much greater role in the rough and tumble world of world politics and social engineering. I love this next piece.
[Clip 00:01:17 – 00:01:27]
Today’s guest on Skeptiko, Joseph Atwill, author of Caesar’s Messiah, has become a real cornerstone in my understanding of how we should approach so many of the deepest, most important questions about religion and spirituality, well, from a Skeptiko perspective at least. At any rate, it was so great to reconnect with Joe and be reminded how especially relevant his work is today.
Joseph Atwill: [00:01:55] Yeah, I actually am quite, intrigued and supportive of your perspective on consciousness because of its political aspect. And, of course, given my background, obviously the first thing I’m looking at is how are our ideas about ourselves manipulated politically? Have we been basically given an idea about our consciousness that is untrue, just so that we can be more easily ruled? And the idea that we are an illusion is, in my mind, a decadent political position. And it’s not even worthwhile discussing in terms of it as spirituality, because you already have this enormous problem, that if you think of yourself as an illusion, if you think of life as something that is absurd or meaningless, then you basically don’t have the right kind of resiliency, in terms of coherent political perspective.
I’m not sold on Atwill’s theories, both about Jesus and about Christianity as a socially engineered program initiated by the Romans. Maybe you can ask Atwill these questions the next time you have him on. Here are a few key reasons (and there are others) as to why I don’t accept his arguments:

First, regarding the social engineering argument: If Rome introduced Christianity to control the populace, and Mark’s Gospel was the initial tool, why did they wait 242 years to make Christianity the official state religion? And why in the interim period, from 70 AD, when Mark’s Gospel was likely written, until 312 when Constantine converted, were Christians viewed in a very negative light, leading to persecution, torture, and execution? Such treatment doesn’t seem to provide much motivation for people to adopt such a religion. There’s no doubt that the state took a position against the religion: For an early example, look up Roman Magistrate, “Pliny the Younger” (no, not the double IPA from Russian River Brewing Company ;-) He put Christians to death for merely stating that they were Christian.

Pertaining to the issue of whether Jesus was a real person of history, I keep hearing about Josephus, but Atwill never mentions the reference to Jesus found in the “Annals of Imperial Rome”, written by Publius Cornelius Tacitus:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.”

Concerning the Tacitus’ account, History.com quotes Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman: “As a Roman historian, Tacitus did not have any Christian biases in his discussion of the persecution of Christians by Nero. Just about everything he says coincides—from a completely different point of view, by a Roman author disdainful of Christians and their superstition—with what the New Testament itself says: Jesus was executed by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, for crimes against the state, and a religious movement of his followers sprang up in his wake.

When Tacitus wrote history, if he considered the information not entirely reliable, he normally wrote some indication of that for his readers,” Mykytiuk says in vouching for the historical value of the passage. There is no such indication of potential error in the passage that mentions Christus.”

According to Athiest blogger (yes, that’s right, Atheist) Tim O’Neill, a seemingly unbiased truth-seeker, “Tacitus was one of the most reliable of all Roman historians and many first-century figures are known to us solely through his mention of them. This means his passing reference to Jesus in Annals XV.44 remains a fly in the ointment of the Jesus Myth hypothesis. Despite Tacitus’ reliability and the scholarly agreement that the reference is genuine, Mythicist ideologues have several ways by which they try to dismiss this reference; all of them characteristically weak.”

Further supporting a historical Jesus, here is an excerpt from a 2006 blog written by Bishop John Shelby Spong who is by no means a traditional Christian. Rather, Spong is viewed by many as a heretic and has received death threats from Fundamentalist Christians. One example of Spong’s views not aligning with mainstream Christianity is his rejection of the “sacrificial lamb” idea, whereby Jesus had to die to pay the price for the sins of humanity. Here are Spong’s comments on the historicity of Jesus:

“Paul writing to the Galatians around the year 51 C.E. chronicles his activities, including his consultations with Peter and others who were called by Paul "the pillars" of the Christian movement. This means that Paul knew Peter and others who were the disciples of the Jesus of history. Paul says that this meeting took place three years after his conversion (see Galatians 1:18-24). The best evidence that has been amassed to date the conversion of Paul was done by a 19th century church historian named Adolf Harnack, who places it no earlier than one year and no more than six years after the crucifixion. So Paul was in touch with disciples of Jesus within 4 to 10 years after the crucifixion. These disciples did not think of Jesus as a fantasy or a mythical person. Indeed myths take far longer than 4 to 10 years to develop. There is thus ample data to support the historicity of the man Jesus. Paul would hardly have given his life to a myth.

There are other things that are so counter-intuitive about the way the Jesus story has been told that to me they constitute compelling additional evidence for his historicity. One is that Jesus is said to have come out of Nazareth, a dirty, petty and insignificant town that had a dreadful reputation. It was said even in the New Testament that people asked "can anything good come out of Nazareth" (see John 1:46)? His Nazareth and Galilean origins were an embarrassment to the Jesus movement. No one creates a myth that will embarrass them. It was undoubtedly this embarrassment that helped to create the myth of his birth in Bethlehem. One does not try to escape a lowly place of origin unless that place is so deeply a part of the person's identity that it cannot be suppressed. Jesus of Nazareth was a person of history.”
 
#48
Hey Charlie, long time no see. How's the goose-stepping going?
Better than ever! The escalating AntiFa violence has been a huge plus for our side. Republican support for the Covid lock-downs and their grovelling to BLM has soured many normie Civic Nationalists on the G.O.P. They are looking to us for a Real Conservative alternative.

Increasing Facebook and Twitter censorship is driving them to our social media in record numbers. The high levels of unemployment and growing wealth inequality are forcing them to reconsider their support for "free market" Capitalism.

I haven't done the deep dive on Orthodox Christianity I intended. I'm keeping an eye on how it resists CIA export of Globohomo. I will have to wait until this winter when chores subside before I can perform the required reading on their history and theology.
 
#49
... who would be a good Skeptiko guests for this topic?
I searched Skeptiko.com and could find no interviews with Catherine Austin Fitts.

It would interesting to hear about on how her Boomer financial investment clients use hippy Christ-Consciousness "intention" thoughts to make the world a better place.

She would get into the conspiracy theory of Elite malevolence with their Breakaway Civilization, a bit of UFO stuff, and the Good vs. Evil debate.


Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Austin_Fitts

Her website: https://solariadvisors.com

Previous Interviews: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query="Catherine+Austin+Fitts"
 
#50
We threw Jorjani out of the Alt-Right because he is a nutjob.

I predict you will arrive at the same conclusion if you study him.
As far as I know, Jason are quite happy to leave the "Alt-Right" (a.k.a. the Right's own SJWs) behind.

I think, he should not associate himself with them in the first place, this mistake only damaged and hindered a devepoment of his own beyond-Left-Right-and-Center promethean vision. Like Keith Preston from Attack the System, he should have explicitly distanced himself from the meaningless and counterproductive Right-vs.-Center-vs.-Left feuds, dedicated himself fully to the creative synthesis of all strands of progressivism - as much as Keith dedicates himself fully to the productive integration of all types of anarchism. We will need both very soon, as the global American Empire seems to crumble before our very eyes, and we must find a way to defeat the ultimate threat of the digital totalitarianism and its likely attempt to build a new - now truly inhuman, if not to say infernal - global empire on its ruins.
 
Last edited:
#51
...this mistake only damaged and hindered a devepoment of his own beyond-Left-Right-and-Center promethean vision.
I must apologize to Hurmanetar.

I criticized Jorjani because he tried to infiltrate and use the Alt-Right to advance his own Iranian agenda. I watched about an hour of the Arktos video Hurmanetar posted above. Jorjani has some interesting ideas I'd never heard about.

Three years ago all I saw was Jorjani harming our nascent political movement. I called him a nutjob because his injections seemed toxic back then. That wasn't fair becuase I don't actually know enough about his thesis to make any judgement of how crazy, or not, it may be.

"Promethianism" sounds flawed, but interesting.
 
#52
As far as I know, Jason are quite happy to leave the "Alt-Right" (a.k.a. the Right's own SJWs) behind.

I think, he should not associate himself with them in the first place, this mistake only damaged and hindered a devepoment of his own beyond-Left-Right-and-Center promethean vision. Like Keith Preston from Attack the System, he should have explicitly distanced himself from the meaningless and counterproductive Right-vs.-Center-vs.-Left feuds, dedicated himself fully to the creative synthesis of all strands of progressivism - as much as Keith dedicates himself fully to the productive integration of all types of anarchism. We will need both very soon, as the global American Empire seems to crumble before our very eyes, and we must find a way to defeat the ultimate threat of the digital totalitarianism and its likely attempt to build a new - now truly inhuman, if not to say infernal - global empire on its ruins.
Jorjani said he was approached by some people at Blackwater who promised funds to help him steer the dangerous identitarian alt-right movement in a more positive direction. Those funds never materialized and with his reputation tarnished by associating for a short while with the Alt-Right and the likes of Richard Spencer, he got fired from his teaching position.

It’s a shame as he has a masterful command of mythology, philosophy, history, and he grew up watching Mishlove so he is steeped in the world of Psi research.
 
#53
Better than ever! The escalating AntiFa violence has been a huge plus for our side. Republican support for the Covid lock-downs and their grovelling to BLM has soured many normie Civic Nationalists on the G.O.P. They are looking to us for a Real Conservative alternative.

Increasing Facebook and Twitter censorship is driving them to our social media in record numbers. The high levels of unemployment and growing wealth inequality are forcing them to reconsider their support for "free market" Capitalism.

I haven't done the deep dive on Orthodox Christianity I intended. I'm keeping an eye on how it resists CIA export of Globohomo. I will have to wait until this winter when chores subside before I can perform the required reading on their history and theology.
Unfortunately, I fear you may be right.

This little excerpt from Dutch historian Johan Huizinga, writing in 1935, has been on my mind lately:

We are living in a demented world. And we know it. It would not come as a surprise to anyone if tomorrow the madness gave way to a frenzy which would leave our poor Europe in a state of distracted stupor, with engines still turning and flags waving in the breeze, but with the spirit gone.

Everywhere there are doubts as to the solidity of our social structure, vague fears of the imminent future, a feeling that our civilization is on the way to ruin. They are not merely the shapeless anxieties which beset us in the small hours of the night when the flame of life burns low. They are considered expectations founded on observation and judgment of an overwhelming multitude of facts… We see forms of government no longer capable of functioning, production systems on the verge of collapse, social forces gone wild with power.”

Of course the above premonition was fulfilled in the horrors of WWII. I hope we get off more lightly this time.

As for Ortho Christianity, well, it's more the theology and practice that interests me, but if you're looking for dedicated reactionaries, they've got that too.
 
Last edited:
#55
As for Ortho Christianity, well, it's more the theology and practice that interests me, but if you're looking for dedicated reactionaries, they've got that too.
The Reactionary part is what got me interested in Orthodoxy. The fact that Orthodoxy was able to survive the murder of 80 million Christians by Marxism indicates they are doing something right.

They are the only major denomination today actively resisting enslavement by the Marxist New World Order.

You might enjoy this email propaganda newsletter from Russian Faith .com https://russian-faith.com/pages/subscribe-our-mailing-list

They publish approximately bi-weekly. It's pretty slick and well-done.
 
#56
Jorjani said he was approached by some people at Blackwater who promised funds to help him steer the dangerous identitarian alt-right movement in a more positive direction. Those funds never materialized...
Has Jorjani ever explained why the operation didn't continue, why they dropped him?

Richard Spencer is so darn greedy he ignored the many strong complaints and warnings about Jorjani from our base.
 
#57
The Reactionary part is what got me interested in Orthodoxy. The fact that Orthodoxy was able to survive the murder of 80 million Christians by Marxism indicates they are doing something right.
Personally, I think it might have something to do with their dogged insistence on maintaining traditional theology. This tradition is, in my view, diametrically opposed to something like fascism, which is more like, again in my view, a kind of modernist anti-tradition - far closer to the most extreme manifestations of Marxism than anything 'traditional.'
 
#58
I trust you are probably right. I can't say because I'm ignorant of how Orthodox Theology compares with the goofy Protestant Evangelical theology I was raised in, versus Catholic universalism, versus the esoteric forms of Christianity.

You will be pleased to learn that one of the biggest problems we have in the Hard Right is that we can't even agree on what Fascism actually is, and all the malcontent Spergs we attract think that question is worth stabbing each other in the back over. :)
 

Alex

Administrator
#59
...that's usually what compels me to come on here to comment haha...
I get that :)

but towards the end of the interview you said that basically there's no hope. No hope in overthrowing the oligarchy that rules this world. I'd have to disagree. Sure, the odds are slim and stacked against the masses of humanity, but there's always a chance to overcome. I think Joe made a great point about the internet and the ability for people to connect and have access to knowledge like never before.
I think you and joe make great points in this regard. I'm persuaded... well someone persuaded :)
 

Alex

Administrator
#60
Atwill points out that the original intention of those who allegedly contructed the NT wasn't a long-term one: they didn't envisage the lasting effects of the formation of Christianity as we now know it, but just did it for purposes of shaping then current politico-military aims. However, they spawned a "monster" that would have incalculable effects on history and politics in a way they couldn't have forseen.
excellent. Thanks for sharing this.

I agree with this point but I think joe over plays it. all psyop masters (and the romans were certainly that) know they can't control the outcome of the game... only influence it as it plays out. I think joe's excellent breakdown of constantine is evidence of this in action. I mean, there's no way they could have originally planned on co-opting this christian thing they helped create and elevating it to the state religion hundreds of years later, but that's what they did.
 
Top