Michael Tsarion on Race, Jordan Peterson, and Why Conspiracy Work is Spiritual Work |372|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Michael Tsarion on Race, Jordan Peterson, and Why Conspiracy Work is Spiritual Work |372|
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    Michael Tsarion’s books ask tough questions about our occulted history and its impact on modern culture.
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    photo by: Skeptiko
    What do you think about race? And what does it have to do with the extended consciousness stuff I’m always talking about?

    (clip from the movie, Get Out) Hey Chris, I want to introduce you to some friends. This is a David and Marcia Wincott, Ronald and Celia Jeffries, Hiroki Tanaka and Jessika and Fredrich Walden.

    Too many names to remember, but hi.

    Do you find that being African-American has more advantage or disadvantage in the modern world?

    It’s a tough one.

    Yeah, I know man.

    Hey man. They were asking me about me about the African-American experience, maybe you could take this one.

    Sorry man.

    Get out… (screams)… get out… get out!

    That’s a clip from the 2017 Oscar nominated movie, Get Out. It is a movie that approaches some of these topics of race, genetics, blood lines, in a rather new and novel way. But from my perspective, from the Skeptiko perspective of consciousness and extended consciousness, it just sounds like bullshit.

    Alex Tsakiris: I mean, I’m just going to be really blunt. I’m looking at a picture of you and I’m going Irishman? Man, this guy’s pretty brown skinned, and then I’m reading your background and you say in your bio that your grandfather was this, kind of, famous Sikh, right?

    Michael Tsarion: That’s right. I am Irish with Norwegian background and part of my family comes from Northern India. When you say Sikh, that’ll pretty much nail it for people because within Sikhism there’s several different castes and the highest caste, the philosopher caste, was called Jat, and my ancestors came from the Jat Sikhs. So, these are a philosopher caste. This is a caste that is known to be pure Aryan and pure Caucasian. So even though the tone of the skin maybe off-white, you know, darker because of the hot climate and that my ancestors moved over to India, they are, in fact, Caucasians. So, on both sides of my family, it’s Caucasian blood there, partly from Norway and then the Norwegians came over.

    Alex Tsakiris: This history, the land, the blood. You feel like that’s important to you?

    Michael Tsarion: Yes, it’s important to me, yeah.

    (later in the interview)

    Alex Tsakiris: I’m with you on that, and I think you’re right to point that out and point all the corruption that often comes with religion, because it’s essentially about controlling people. No matter how good the idea is initially, it becomes institutionalized and it becomes this vehicle for control, because it’s pushing on all the same buttons, right?

    So, your ‘spiritual’, whatever that means to you, development, opens you up and makes you vulnerable to some very human, cultish, manipulative kind of things, and we see that happening again and again.

    But let me slow down because sometimes we get into talking inside baseball and people aren’t following, and let me tell you a little bit about my journey with Skeptiko, because when I approached these topics for myself, I was relying on science as you alluded to. I thought there were problems with the way that this fake dogmatic materialism was being applied, but I liked the method.

    So, one of the first questions I came to was this question of consciousness, and then when you get into consciousness, quickly, the fundamental question becomes, what is the nature of consciousness? Is it brain based or is it not? And you’ve nailed that over and over again, and I like how you’ve done it and my work kind of mirrors and is very compatible with yours.

    But then, you know, I take this question of the survival of consciousness, which is really the fundamental question for completely blowing apart the scientific materialism, ‘you are biological robot,’ mean.

    So, you look at that and the science behind that is, “Hey, we’ve started to resuscitate all these people,” you know? So, the people that first ran across this, and you know this, but I’m recapping it for the benefit of all our listeners.

    You had heart surgeons and the guy has a heart attack and they resuscitated him and the guy goes in to talk to him the next day and he goes, “Hey Doc, I heard what you said while I was under. You said, ‘How does this guy have such a heart like this?’” And the doctor turns white as a sheet, he goes, “How the hell did you know I said that? You were dead, you had no heartbeat. I was there, your heart was [unclear 00:05:02].” And he goes, “Well, I was above and I looked down and I saw what was happening.”

    So, you’ve, got that as a point. There’s now 200 peer-reviewed papers of near-death experience. But if you go between lives, you take, you know Michael Newton is a hypnotherapist and anyone who doesn’t believe in hypnotherapy needs to just do a little bit of research, but he’s regressing people, so we can find out why they’re afraid of spiders or why they are afraid of heights or whatever. He’s regressing people and all of a sudden this person says, “I’m on a battlefield in Ireland”, or wherever the hell it is, “and I’m holding a sword and a shield.” He spontaneously brings these people back to prior lives, right? So, then he applies that and does a bunch of research on that and it’s good research.

    You’ve got the guys at the University of Virginia, which I alluded to. They’re doing real research on reincarnation, and in some ways it’s not that hard to do. You go and find all these points of memory that these young kids, three and four years old have, that it would be impossible for them to know.

    My whole point in that whole thing, and I appreciate you listening, is that there’s all this scientific evidence that suggests that the life that we have is one of many lives that our consciousness occupies during this existence that it has. I’m kind of being careful with the words, because it does get into this very spiritual sounding, dogmatic kind of stuff. But at the very least, consciousness survives after bodily death and consciousness seems to occupy many different life forms during its existence.

    Isn’t that fundamental to some of these questions that we’re talking about in terms of who we really are?

    Michael Tsarion: Yes it is, and see, my whole coming at the same topics that you’re talking about, is to analyze the credibility of the types who deny everything you’re saying.

    In this interview I have coming up with Michael Tsarion, we talk about a lot more than race and I want to say again, I say it many times in the interview, I’m really glad that there are people out there like Michael, who are willing to push some of these buttons and most importantly, are not afraid to get on a show like this and hash out things, so that people can get, maybe some different perspective on these points, and as you’ll hear, there are a lot of things that Michael and I see eye to eye on. Race doesn’t happen to be one of them, but hey, that’s okay.

    So, the interview is coming up in just one second, but I did want to make a little note before we get started.

    You know, I realized as I was recording this, I talk about Skeptiko, as if there’s a Skeptiko perspective somewhere out there in the universe, or that I’ve defined, and you know, I’ve always wanted it to be that way. I’ve always wanted this show to generate a community of like-minded people who are interested in skeptically analyzing everything, in a real, genuinely skeptical way that incorporates in a deeply spiritual perspective as well, because I think, ultimately, that’s where we wind up.

    So, this is a call out to anyone who’s thought about getting involved in Skeptiko in a deeper way. I have a number of projects that I’d love to do, that I’d never get around to doing, that I don’t have time to do, and quite frankly, I don’t have the talent to do.

    So, if you’re out there and you’re a good writer, or a good YouTube producer. or have other talents that might be useful to this endeavor, let me know. I even have a little bit of money to throw at it as well. So, if that can help you out, maybe we can do some things together.

    I’ve reached out in the past and it’s fun to connect with people who are interested in, kind of, rolling up their sleeves and, kind of, making this project part of something on their to-do list. That’s all it is for me, it’s a passion project. Obviously, you know, I don’t make any money on this, I just spend money on it, because I think it’s important. It’s important to me and to whatever extent it contributes to the ongoing dialogue we’re all having in generating, and at the same time. being a part of. Hey, that’s great as well. So, reach out to me, let me hear from you if you’re interested in joining this community in a deeper way.

    But now, let’s get on to this interview with Michael Tsarion.

    (continued below)
     
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  2. The subject of race and extended consciousness was not discussed much in the excerpts, but my belief (based on statements of NDErs and evidential mediums) is that spirits do not have a race. You can reincarnate as a different race, a different gender, or on a different planet as a different form of life for that matter. In the afterlife, you will initially go to a place that is similar to the earth environment you are familiar with and be among like minded individuals, but that is to help you adjust - to do otherwise could be traumatic and confusing. But ultimately spirits do not have race.

    My concept of spirit is based on empirical evidence. And there is also empirical evidence of God - a creator and designer - but not necessarily as described in the Bible.

    "Why Conspiracy Work is Spiritual Work"

    Personally, I don't like to mix spirituality and politics because there is the danger that it leads to labeling different political opinions as unspiritual or evil. People in different situations are affected by government policy in different ways and it is natural for political differences to exist and they should be resolved by democratic processes. In my opinion, is a huge mistake to try to relate this or that political position to spiritual beliefs.

    But I think conspiracy theories are relevant to skeptiko because they get at an important issue, epistemology: why we believe what we believe, how we know what we know. The big issue in beliefs about paranormal phenomena, cognitive bias, plays the same role in determining what people believe about individual conspiracy theories.

    I have always felt that live interviews and debates were a poor way to explain one's ideas because, personally, I like to take time to think before answering questions and I like to improve rough drafts before I present my ideas. As far as I am concerned any live interview is like a very rough draft - I would rather read a finished manuscript.

    Because no one can develop their expertise on every subject.

    I have watched a few videos of Peterson and I have not seen him use Christian dogma or spiritual beliefs to justify his academic / political / philosophical views. As far as I have seen he does not present himself as a Christian fundamentalist or even an expert on religion or spirituality. The fact that an interviewer had to ask him if he was a Christian, I think, verifies this.

    I read the excerpts but didn't hear the podcast, did you interrogate Michael Tsarion on the Sikh sacred writings? If not why not? Do you hold Christians to a different standard than people of other religions?


    At 1.01:46 on the youtube version Alex says:
    You really don't understand them? Here's the explanation: Not every Christian is a fundamentalist. To me it seems very simple and obvious. I am puzzled that you don't see it.

    To some people, being a Christian is not identical with believing in the miracles. For some people, Christianity involves believing something about humanity, ethics, and morality that distinguishes it from many other philosophies. For some people, saying they are Christian is not saying something about what they believe about the past but about their ethnicity and their culture.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  3. Alex

    Alex New

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    I think this is a error in transcription... Michael said this not me.
     
  4. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions at the end of the podcast:

    Why is it that some druid like Emma Restall Orr can talk about connection to blood and connection to land without being called out on being racist? But that's exactly what it is.

    Then someone else talks about all the benefits that have been bestowed on them by virtue of the fact that they have a particular bloodline or genetic connection and immediately that's a hot-button issue?

    What about all the real scientifc questions there: how does epigenetics really work? Does it follow a bloodline? Does it follow a genetic line? Or, as Rupert Sheldrake's research on morphic resonance points out, is it more of a group, social phenomenon?
     
  5. Alex

    Alex New

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    you could say that about a lotta stuff... doesn't explain/excuse it.

    here's the vid in question:
     
  6. Alex, it sounds like it is you saying it at 1:01:46 on the youtube version. (The link goes directly to that point in the podcast.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  7. Michael Patterson

    Michael Patterson New

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    As an Irish born man who has no longer any attachment to the land or people of his birthplace I am greatly stimulated by Alex and Michael’s discussion. I am going to do a longer reflective essay on this theme for my blog.

    If we are ‘spiritual beings’ having a physical experience as humans on this planet I think race and connection to land are things of now - in the sense that we inhabit actualities that effect us in the here and now.

    On the race side there are historical and moral issues that may require our engagement simply because of who we are in this life. For example as a white man in Australia I choose to confront concerns about our presence here because they are genuine sources of grievance. What is right here? I am the beneficiary of an act that may have been wrong. Is it?

    In relation to land, because it is a living thing, a sense of deeply bonded relationship is something it is natural to feel. This is certainly true for indigenous people who draw all their needs from the place they live. Their bodies become ‘part’ of the ecosystem – part of place – and it is reasonable to affirm that as well as physical connection there is deep psychical connection as well. Experience of place informs identity.

    I get Alex’s position. I can imagine growing upon some places and in some ways provides no opportunity to establish, nurture and cherish deep bonds with place. Contra Alex I was raised in rural areas - on a farm and in country towns. I came to Australia from Northern Ireland when I was 4. I had a passion for the bush from an early age. Now I cannot abide too long in an urban environment.

    But of course race and land can be clung to too tightly in the absence of balancing meaning and identity. As such they can be the fuel for psychological extremes and political manipulation (including religion).

    Both are, I think, part of the backdrop of being human and in a healthy state their roles or functions are benign, and even positive contributors to a life. But our state is not healthy and the result is magnified sensibilities and expressions of angst that reflect powerlessness, senses of injury and opportunities for identity that cannot be discounted. Rather than ignore the passions, or insist that neither race nor place have any validity, our task must be to restore balance.
     
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  8. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    I'm a great admirer of Jordan Peterson, and I reject the idea that he should have his answer to whether he's a Christian all boxed up and ready to go when asked. I don't think he's avoiding anything, or feels embarrassed to pursue the matter, so much as that he's still pondering it and hasn't yet formulated a well-defined response.

    If someone asked me whether I was a Christian, I might well have a similar response, not because it was a question I'd rather not be asked, but because, like him, I don't yet have a fully organised answer (and I'm a dozen years older than him, so my prospects for a definitive answer aren't good). I suspect it's just that he doesn't want to confidently put forth on the matter. My take is that his difficulty answering is existential rather than a conscious avoidance manoeuvre; he's being modest and true to his nature, rather than pusillanimous.

    What would be your answer to the question, I wonder?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  9. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    At around 19:30, Tsarion seems to be saying that "oligarchy" etymologically "pertains to the Druids". As far as I'm aware, however, oligos derives from the ancient Greek word meaning few. Hence an oligarchy is rule by the few, an oligopeptide is a peptide chain with only a few peptides (as opposed to a polypeptide where there are many), and so on. So is he saying that oligos derives from a Druid word before the ancient Greeks?
     
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  10. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    However, it is interesting that Ian Stevenson's work seemed to throw up a lot of cases or reincarnation in which the spirit seems occupy successive bodies in close proximity.

    This might be an artefact because cases of more distant reincarnation would be harder to detect, but even so, if people reincarnated totally randomly over the Earth's surface, it is hard to believe the process would be detectable.

    David
     
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  11. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I think that word "Racist" has become politicised beyond belief in the modern world. It is probably best to find some other phrase instead if one wants to have a sensible discussion about its possible relationship to a larger reality. Indeed, as you said, "Personally, I don't like to mix spirituality and politics".

    David
     
  12. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Wow - this reminds me of the many discussions I had about 50 years ago at university when I decided to abandon Christianity. I don't mean this as a criticism of you, Jim, but to me those are weasel words.

    In a strange way, Christian fundamentalists are more pure. They believe a set of things as being really true, while other people who call themselves "Christian", believe some muddle of ideas which is a vague compromise between modern science and Christianity. Such people tend to believe science far too much, because they want to hold on to some supposedly firm truths.

    The real truth (at least as I see it) is that religions have built complicated myths and dogma around phenomena such as NDE's, while science has become extraordinarily authoritarian and inflexible in so many areas, and simply wants to brush phenomena such as NDE's to one side and make their own myths about 11-dimensional. reality, dark matter, etc.

    David
     
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  13. Inner Space

    Inner Space New

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    I understand the notion of race as to be the rather outdated idea that certain phenotypical features e.g. skin pigment, eye colour, hair etc. identify unique genetic properties of people. We know who this to be total bullshit. The notion of a race defined by physical characteristics such as Caucasian and Negroid is not supported by genetics. "Race" as defined this way, accounts for very little genetic variation in homo-sapiens. It's time our society saw that the notion of "race" is a cultural construct which showed it's darkest side in Nazi Germany where it almost became arbitrary who was defined as being Jewish who was defined as being Aryan. On the spiritual side, personally speaking, I have felt deep connections with people of all "races", many different ethnicities, from many different countries . At the risk of sounding like a crazy hippy, I also feel a spiritual connection with animals and all life on Earth. That being said, I also fear that spiritual connection because you can't retain the human ego and also be connected with the rest of sentient life. All of us struggle with this issue of building and protecting our own egos and yet transcending our ego. If we choose to live life fully we transcend our own ego identity by experiencing other living egos. If we choose to not live fully and close ourselves off from the world we stagnate and die. Ironically, it is only by dying do we truly transcend our ego. So we all get there in the end, perhaps by the way of reincarnation or "transmigration" of the soul?
     
  14. I don't understand why they are weasel words. Can you explain that? Thanks.
     
  15. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Newspeak.
     
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  16. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    I'm interested in this Druid history of Ireland. I'm eternally fascinated by the culture that I guess we call the Phoenicians... In my travels as a younger man I spent a ton of time traveling North Africa. A number of people in Tunisia/Morocco/Egypt told me on separate occasions that the type architecture of coastal port towns around most of the Mediterranean weren't in fact built by the Romans, but the seafaring civilization long before them which i guess is Phoenician/Druid, dunno. That type of cobblestone and stone masonry that covers all those rolling hills. Obviously they didn't show me any proof, but I like to think that the interesting racial similarities, like the red headed, pale skinned and freckled people of Syria and Egypt, or the blond haired blue eyed of Rome, have some history mixed up in there.

    Also, great show!
     
  17. Alex

    Alex New

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    my apologies... yes, I said that and I stand behind it. here's what I don't think I said:
     
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  18. Okay, I've update my post with the correct attribution.
     
  19. Alex

    Alex New

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    ???

    in what way are "indigenous people" different/special/superior/inferior/master-race?

    how is this not backdoor racism and backdoor materialism to boot?
     
  20. Alex

    Alex New

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    genetics is not supported by genetics :) see epigenetics.
     

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