Michael Tsarion on Race, Jordan Peterson, and Why Conspiracy Work is Spiritual Work |372|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Silence

    Silence Member

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    Sheesh. Go out, get some fresh air, and talk to a few actual Americans. There is no need for a conspiracy as he has offended large groups of people with his own words. An entire population of citizens want the guy gone. So, the political machine that could profit from Trump going down (e.g., the Democratic Party) has mobilized to meet the stated goals of their base.

    No conspiracy from the supposed "deep state" whatever the hell that may be.
     
  2. Silence

    Silence Member

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    Nothing to pin on him David? You are costing yourself whatever credibility as a rational thinker you had.

    The man's own words have been his own worst enemy to the myriad of voting Americans that I talk to on a daily basis. Those on the right/conservative/Republican side of the aisle acknowledge a very real quandary here as they don't approve of much of his commentary but support much of his policy. Those on the left/liberal/Democratic side are insulted by much of what comes out of the man's mouth.

    For many its not so much about the policy. Folks I talk to understand our system and embrace it. If the typical conservative policy fare isn't their bag, they patiently wait their turn to chime in by voting in elections. Same holds true for those who dislike the liberal policy fare. However, talking about grabbing women in the private parts, asserting a moral equivalency between white supremacists and counter protesters, broadly talking about immigrants as rapists, etc, etc. crosses the line for most folks I know regardless of their policy bent.

    Some folks simply aren't hardcore "ends justify the means" proponents. For some of us, like myself, how we get where we are going is important too.

    If you like the way he conducts himself, that's fine. But don't be so obtuse as to accuse those who do not as needing to "take up and smell the coffee". Ridiculous, inane, naïve, arrogant. I'm really not sure how to categorize such a statement.
     
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  3. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    You know, if the man had committed a rape, or a murder, or any number of other crimes, you would say so. Instead of that you report - well nothing really - I am sure there are plenty of Americans that would react as you say, but they too would find it hard to pin down exactly what they dislike about him.

    His remark about grabbing women by their private parts was made years ago - no doubt as some kind of bantering humour, whereas George Bush Senior seems to have done the real thing repeatedly:
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...r-claims-he-groped-second-woman-a3668431.html

    Hillary Clinton was accused of bullying a woman not to report the fact that she had been raped by Bill Clinton. Your right thinking Americans probably don't even know either of those facts, because the media tend to filter out such stories.

    If the media cover up all the misdemeanours of the politicians they approve of, and blacken the President in whatever way they can, you can understand Americans agonising over odd words Trump has uttered while ignoring far more serious issues - because they never hear about them.
    Unrestricted immigration is a real problem - as Germany and Sweden are starting to realise.

    Most of the immigrants are men, arriving from countries where women are covered up far more than in the West - this has resulted in a variety of sexual assaults including rape.

    Some immigrants come with the intention of performing terrorist acts.

    President Trump describes all that in his style, but what he says isn't without foundation.

    You need to realise that the idea of countries without effective borders is extremely recent, and will probably die the death after it has caused no end of harm. One obvious problem with the concept, is that criminals take advantage of it, because they become harder to track.

    You need to think why nearly half of those who voted, voted for Donald Trump. Perhaps you take the arrogant, elitist opinion that they are 'deplorables', whose votes should be discounted - I respect them.

    War is the ultimate attrocity, far exceeding anything else because of the death and suffering it brings. Under successive presidents a whole range of those attrocities have been committed:

    Vietnam

    Cambodia

    Laos

    Afghanistan/Soviets

    Afghanistan/Taliban

    Iraq

    Libya

    Syria

    Each one of those involved countless deaths, goodness knows how name lesser casualties, rapes, torture, the lot. That is what I very much hope President Trump will halt. He is already achieving something interesting in Korea.

    David
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  4. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Seriously, you can't be this clueless, David. You just can't. I mean... can you? Is this really the same David Bailey who has offered such thoughtful critiques on everything from natural selection to artificial intelligence? I may not always have agreed with every aspect of every critique, but I have always perceived a strong grasp and acknowledgement of the facts in contention - of reality.

    But here: a blanket denial of the facts. There's simply nothing in your eyes of which Donald might be accused - of which Donald has been accused - that warrants censure.

    "Grab 'em by the pussy" - oh, you know, that's just "a coarse remark". Presumably, then, he didn't actually do what he said he did in that remark, in which case he was lying for notoriety amongst the lads, which presumably is plenty enough likeable to you. Never mind that at least sixteen women to date have confirmed that he does do the sort of things about which he was recorded boasting - and no doubt those are just the few who have been brave enough to come forward publicly and cop the inevitable push-back.

    And the important aspect of the Stormy Daniels allegations? Oh, boy, that how unethical she is, to have blackmailed Donald! Never mind that the point in contention is Donald's bad behaviour, not anybody else's. Never mind that the fact that there's something about which Donald could be blackmailed (assuming "blackmail" is even the right word) in the first place confirms bad behaviour on his part.

    According to you, I "really didn't have much to report". The irony is that you're behaving exactly analogously to pseudo-skeptics of psi: "There's no evidence for psi or anything paranormal. See how easily I debunked the couple of weak examples of supposed evidence that you were able to offer? [Whilst utterly ignoring the cache of evidence which somebody - in the case of psi, perhaps Dean Radin; in the case of Donald, malf - has helpfully compiled/provided]". That's what's so strange to me. You can spot it a mile off when they do it, but you're blind to it in yourself.

    David, there's a cavern of reportables. I literally spent just a few seconds picking the examples I picked. Here is another sample:

    1. Donald was recently ordered to pay $25 million to his former "students" of Trump "University":

    Ripping people off with a high-fee, low-grade pretense at "university" education by your "instructors" who often enough were even less educated than your "students", and then bringing up the race of the judge in the case to allege bias against your unscrupulous greed - what's not to like about that?

    2. Donald has a long history of self-serving offensiveness towards native Americans:

    Portraying native Americans as criminal drug abusers under the cover of a fake "pro-family" institute so as to further your commercial aims, and then, when it suits your commercial aims, allying yourself with native Americans: what's not to like about that? As Donald himself put it: this could be good!

    David, this stuff goes on and on. I can smell the coffee alright. The stench is unbearable.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  5. Laird

    Laird Member

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    In fact, his former wife did in a deposition accuse him of rape (see the first link in my previous post). She later kind of weakly walked it back somewhat, under who knows what pressure?
     
  6. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    OK Laird and Silence,

    If there is so much against Donald Trump, how come it is proving so hard to come up with an impeachable offence? I mean the Mueller investigation has gone on for ages, and meanwhile there have been several Senate reports announcing that no evidence of collusion with Russia has been found.

    Who would have expected over a year ago, that it would still be President Trump busy negotiating over North Korea etc.

    Wouldn't gross fraud have been grounds for impeachment? Why try to get him on what looks increasingly like an attempted frame-up?

    The trouble is, the media has thrown everything at him, and when you look at the Mueller investigation, nothing seems to be sticking.

    Well who does know what - maybe she was offered some vast sum of money to make this accusation, and then thought better about perjuring herself. I don't know, but neither do you - we can't really run on allegations alone - particularly when the world's press have been trawling for stories - probably with an obscene budget.

    Let me say this. The story of ψ tells us that just because a lot of loud-mouthed people tell us it is bunk, doesn't mean it has to be so. We have seen so many so called sceptics wriggle in Alex's interviews. 'Everyone ' will tell you ψ is total rubbish, fraudulent, anti-science, proved to be false, and yet most people here have heard enough to come to a different conclusion. I guess I feel somewhat similarly about President Trump.

    Perhaps it is time to let this drop - it hasn't got too much to do with ψ (I think).


    David
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  7. malf

    malf Member

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  8. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Goalpost shifting - really?

    The point in contention (yours) - and rhetorical though it may initially have been, you have in any case doubled down on it - is that there is nothing to dislike about Donald Trump, not (shifting the goalposts) that there is anything with which to impeach him (which there may well be - I honestly don't know at this point).

    Being ordered by a court to pay $25,000,000 for scamming people out of money via a fake university makes Donald Trump pretty dislikeable in my eyes.

    Being fined $250,000 for faking a grass-roots organisation labelling Native Americans as criminal drug-abusers for his commercial gain makes Donald Trump pretty dislikeable in my eyes.

    Malf has just offered an article informing us that Donald Trump was denied a casino licence in Australia due to mafia connections.

    The list goes on and on...

    The guy's your run-of-the-mill corrupt, lying, greedy, egotistical, sexist, racist, exploitative capitalist without moral scruples, but somehow he's challenging business as usual? Get real, David.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
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  9. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Yeah, and maybe it's anaesthesia awareness, or lack of oxygen in a dying brain, or confabulation. Maybe she just bumped her head. Or maybe (as seems to be the case) she was offered a vast sum of money in her divorce settlement to walk back her accusation.

    Please do drop it. Having to read your contortions is excruciating.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  10. Laird

    Laird Member

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    One more response before letting this drop.

    We've covered his first wife's sworn deposition to that effect. This is a whole other level of evil. Lawsuit Charges Donald Trump with Raping a 13-Year-Old Girl:

    The case was dropped due to threats, it is claimed, so it hasn't been tested in court. But there is no doubt that Donald Trump was (is?) friends with convicted child sex offender Jeffrey Epstein - which says something in and of itself - so the allegations are prima facie plausible.
     
  11. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    SJWs are out in force, outraged at Donald Trump but relatively quiet about Bill Clinton, a shady dealer if ever there was one.

    Amongst the half of the population that Clinton's wife Hillary managed not to insult as deplorable are people who incessantly mewl and puke in an orgy of self-righteous sour grapes. But I wonder whether Trump's morals matter half as much as the fact he had the temerity to win: whether that's what really irks. The election didn't go according to orchestrated script, and amongst the deplorables, there's grim amusement at the ensuing pantomime.

    Perhaps this is easier to grasp from the perspective of a Brit who has a low opinion of politicians of any stripe. Perhaps it's easier for him to sit back with a bag of popcorn and view the soap opera/cesspit of American politics: not so much with schadenfreude, as inveterate cynicism.

    I see one amongst us is protesting that having to read David's contortions is excruciating. Is it? Or might it be the knee-jerk reaction of someone trying to have the last word in lieu of managing to shut down all opposition? Let's see what transpires and whether any of the innuendo holds up in court. Join me on my couch and bring along your own popcorn; whichever way it goes will make for fascinating entertainment.

    Roll up, roll up, see them all go nuts in America! Watch it for free on a TV/PC near you! Or maybe you'd prefer to watch the other channel where they're showing the end of the world due to climate change!
     
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  12. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Michael, you don't seem to get it. Donald Trump is the current president of the USA and the subject of the contested claim over the past page or two of this thread: that there is nothing to dislike about him. Bill Clinton is irrelevant to that claim. If you do want to know people's views on or claims about Bill Clinton, then just ask, for pity's sake!

    I neither identify as an SJW (though I definitely support social justice) nor a Democrat, nor am I a particular supporter of Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, nor of any "script". I'm not even American. If I had been an American voter, I probably would have voted for Jill Stein.

    Trying to have the last word in lieu of managing to shut down all opposition? Are you trying to suggest that "one amongst us" (I wonder whether you realise how pretentious a phrase that is?) is a dreadful regressive leftist who just hates free speech and wants to SILENCE EVERYBODY WHO DOESN'T AGREE?

    If so, you know what: don't be silenced. Keep on responding. You and/or David. Address every claim made about Donald Trump in this thread. Explain why it is either false or fails to demonstrate appalling character. But please, leave out the presumptuousness and pathetic argument from moral equivalence.

    Or maybe you don't even contest the claim that there's plenty to dislike about Donald Trump? This seems to be implied by your argument from moral equivalence. If so, your own outrage seems to be misplaced (and, again, oh so presumptuous).
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  13. malf

    malf Member

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    On a forum that tries search for meaning, purpose and (dare I say it) love in the universe, to see folk belittled for supporting social justice leaves a pretty nasty taste in the mouth.
     
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  14. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    The subtlety of a concept like SJW, is that its meaning is rather different from the one spelled out by its individual words.

    David
     
  15. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Thanks - a priceless comment - LOL!

    David
     
  16. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    I think I know that taste: it's hypocrisy, one of the vilest of fruits.
     
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  17. malf

    malf Member

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    Exactly.
     
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  18. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Good to see you agree. Now go and brush your teeth and swill out your mouth with peppermint.
     
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  19. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    OK, I know I wasn't going to continue this subject, but something turned up yesterday that is extremely relevant!
    Right - I will try to make this discussion as thoughtful as possible!
    As you may know (unless you read FoxNews or the Daily Mail, the story has, I think been downplayed), Eric Schneiderman, the attorney general of New York State, has resigned because of a string of allegations made against him by former girlfriends:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse

    He revelled in his role as a prominent thorn in Trump's flesh, and was a prominent Democrat, and supporter of #MeToo. Let's look at part of the above report with my added emphasis:
    Now it is my belief that essentially all politicians are in it for themselves, and when they become really puritanical, they have a cynical agenda and are often impossibly hypocritical.

    Back in 2013 Trump tweeted "Weiner is gone, Spitzer is gone - next will be lightweight A.G. Eric Schneiderman. Is he a crook? Wait and see, worse than Spitzer or Weiner".

    So back to Selvaratnam's account - clearly she is saying that he is a racist, sexist, physically abusive individual - yet he held a prominent role in Democratic politics. We have to assume that if Donald Trump knew about his true nature in 2013, so did many others. In other words, the Democratic party was willing to accept this guy as one of them, despite everything they must have known about him. He is, of course not the first.

    Of course, some politicians from the GOP have also had to resign in disgrace, but these were not participating in a puritanical crusade.

    I would suggest that from time to time cynical individuals manage to present themselves as being ultra-puritanical - usually while hiding a private life that is totally different. Think for a moment of the tele-evangelists that ply their trade by making their flock feel wretchedly guilty about minor sexual flaws, until they themselves are caught with a prostitute or rent boy - maybe even paid for using Church funds.

    Although the details vary, this story is probably as old as mankind.

    Sadly, I think this is the modern Democratic party - willing to do whatever it takes to seize power, even if that includes bringing down a duly elected President. The Democrats were once so different, and I used to see them as the more enlightened US political party.

    I am not American, but I hope that most Americans are beginning to learn the hard lesson, that people who present themselves as whiter than white are usually something else.

    As I said above, politicians are by nature fairly self centred, and I am sure that is true of President Trump. However, I think he wants to be remembered for cleaning up the US, and reducing the ever-present danger of another world war. Yes he will beam with pride if he succeeds, (there is already talk of him getting the Nobel peace prize if he can solve the Korean problem).

    David
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  20. Silence

    Silence Member

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    This is where you continue to miss the point, or at least my point.

    I think people with ambition for power often want to be "remembered" and specifically in some type of radiant light. However, this is not synonymous with ethical purity or altruism and seems to be more egocentric in terms of source. There is, literally, no evidence that Trump is altruistically motivated in anything he's doing. His persona surely seems to be screaming more about his ego than anything else. So, whether he ends up being effective somehow or not I simply can not get past the behavior. The disrespect. The rudeness. The myriad of other negative attributes of which I am attempting to teach my children the polar opposite. In this case I do not see the ends justifying the means.

    The fact that a democrat may be as bad, or an even worse actor, has no bearing for me at all. I will certainly use those negative examples with my kids too as I think there are examples on both sides of the political aisle.
     

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