Michael Tsarion on Race, Jordan Peterson, and Why Conspiracy Work is Spiritual Work |372|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Vault313

    Vault313 New

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    I totally agree, David. I'm so tired of not being able to discuss certain topics because of the fear of hurting feelings.

    I'm interested in truth. Whatever that truth may be. Truth can be ugly. It can often reveal things about ourselves, our society or the world at large that we'd rather not be true. But it is what it is. The better equipped we are to deal with reality as it truly is, which means being honest about things, the better chance we have of actually creating societies that truly are beneficial to all. But denying truth, realities, often means we don't discuss major issues, which means they either aren't being dealt with or they aren't being dealt with properly.

    I've always said I'd rather someone tell me the truth and risk hurting my feelings than continue on a path that could be detrimental to myself or those around me. How can I improve myself if I'm never made aware that I'm making mistakes? I beg those around me to please tell me when I'm being stupid, so I can change that. Don't just let me go on acting like an idiot! This also means that I have to be honest with myself. I must acknowledge my own limitations, whether those be due to genetics (because genetics are real and have a real effect, even if they aren't the be all, end all to everything), socioeconomic forces or plain old ignorance.

    We live in a world that is inherently "unfair". Some are born smart, some are born dumb. Some are born rich, some are born poor. Some are beautiful, some are ugly. I don't know where this notion came from that we could somehow even the score. That we could take away all that makes humanity inherently different, one to another. Moreover, are we sure we would want to do that? I grew up very poor. I was also abused and had a pretty rough childhood. I've made my fair share of mistakes in adulthood and have suffered the consequences of those mistakes. But I blame no one other than myself for the choices I have made. I could have blamed my parents, the circumstances of my birth or the inherent unfairness of life and set myself on a path to self-destruction. But I chose differently. Without making a long post even longer, I'll just say that I'm at a place in life where I'm at peace with it all. IMO, there's a lot of "blame the other" going on right now. And that gets us absolutely nowhere.

    My point is, if you believe in the idea that we are here for a reason. That the circumstances under which we were born may not be so random, or even if it is, that it serves some sort of purpose, then are we sure we should even strive to create some sort of Earthly utopia? Would we be missing the whole point of life? Not to say that we shouldn't try to improve ourselves or the situations we find ourselves in, but perhaps the old saying "that which does not kill us, makes us stronger" contains truth.

    I think there is a distinct misunderstanding of concepts here, or perhaps the issue is being confused purposefully, it's hard to know these days. But that issue is the concept of differences vs. equality. There is this notion that pointing out differences, no matter how obvious, is somehow implying inferiority/superiority. It's not. I'm a woman. Obviously, not a man. There are many differences between my husband and I that go well beyond culture or personality. I have no problem with this. It blows my mind that some people do.

    It seems to me that those that object so ardently to the notion of race are in effect implying inequality where there actually is none. Why object to the reality of race, unless you think it means one is inherently superior to another. Acknowledging the reality of different races does not in any way imply a superior/inferior dynamic. It just simply means there are differences. And in my opinion, different doesn't mean bad, it just means different. And I can appreciate that idea.

    Thank God not everyone is like me!
     
  2. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    I'm sorry, but saying entire groupings of people (based on skin colour) have a biological propensity to thickness and criminality has a huuuuge value judgement built in.

    And disagreement doesn't imply the presence of PC thinking. Anyway, considering the current administration in the US, doesn't chanting 'build that wall' count as political correctness?

    I'm actually sorry I've contributed to this running on so long. I'm done, promise.

    Peace.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  3. Inner Space

    Inner Space New

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    Whatever rocks his boat
     
  4. Alex

    Alex New

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  5. Alex

    Alex New

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    was referring to epigenetics. conventional explanation is pretty dumb.
     
  6. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    An anecdote is insufficient to challenge general trends found in statistics, the claim wasnt that these expressions were universal. Merely that they exist and that they exist in a substantial way.
     
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  7. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    Sure kids do see race - in the same way they see colours, but studies also show that racial attitudes are shaped by the make-up of their parents social groups. Children of parents with mixed friends show less racial bias and living in a mixed household creates changes in race based responses in very young children. Interestingly, teaching kids at school about previous discrimination against certain groups has more of a levelling effect than promoting positive examples of the group.

    So, while their may be developmental factors at play, the outcome looks to me like a socially constructed repeating cycle.

    Hmmmmm, I said I wasn't going to comment anymore. Low willpower. :)
     
  8. Michael Patterson

    Michael Patterson New

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    Interesting. Please say more.
     
  9. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I think some people tend to forget what the playground was like as they get older. Kids love to talk (and behave!) in ways their parents reject. However, I am sure that living in a mixed-race home really does produces a huge change, but this is not the norm. Has anyone done any research on what really goes on in the playground - as opposed to merely surveying their attitudes.

    David
     
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  10. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    There is a long thread here on Skeptiko about the shortcomings of (particularly) modern science, and in the modern context, I would not place much confidence in any supposed results of this sort.

    I mean, for starters,some people are sadly unable to even fill in an IQ test, while others can breeze through and score very highly. Is it plausible that this tells us absolutely nothing for their suitability for any job? The value of an IQ test must surely be a relative thing!

    David
     
  11. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    You obviously like very short answers, but the problem is that in the context of a forum, that can stretch conversations to the point that others lose interest. I think expanding on your point a bit always makes for a more interesting read.

    David
     
  12. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I agree, and moreover, I think society is making the same mistake as it did over Hans Eysenck, who famously attempted to show that Black people had (on average) a slightly lower IQ than white people. What do you do with a claim like that? I see several possible responses:

    1) Accept it as a scientific truth.

    2) Doubt its ultimate validity because Blacks and Whites have had (on average) different life experiences.

    3) Oppose such research on political grounds.

    4) Point out that even if true, his 'discoveries' mean almost nothing, because the distribution of IQ among every race is much broader than the differences he claimed in his research.

    5) Claim that IQ measures absolutely nothing anyway!

    In the modern world, I think the typical response would be (3) or (5). I think the best response would be a combination of (2) and (4)

    upload_2018-2-10_11-38-15.png

    David
     
  13. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    Which attributes of race do you feel have not been substantiated by contemporary research?
     
  14. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    I.Q. correlates very strongly with job performance.

    For example, research has shown that Policemen with high I.Q. don't make good Policemen.

    Research has shown that people with below average I.Q. don't make good Theoretical Physicists.
     
  15. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    Denial of facts is a very bad way to make public policy.
     
  16. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    You have totally missed my point, or I expressed myself badly!

    Given that every race has an IQ like the above - with a huge standard deviation - if you wanted to employ a theoretical physicist, you would do far better to look at each individual's actual IQ, rather than look at their race, which (at best) only displaces the curve a few percentage points!

    BTW, shouldn't you supply references to this research?

    David
     
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  17. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    We are talking about groups, not individuals.
     
  18. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Funny, I'm blocked from seeing this, copyright violation in my country apparently.
     
  19. Deaglan MacCanna

    Deaglan MacCanna Member

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    That's okay, Mischelle. The cover by A Perfect Circle is much better anyway. Listen to that.
     
  20. Deaglan MacCanna

    Deaglan MacCanna Member

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    It seems the thread has been focused down to the question of racial differences and the politics around discussing that. So I feel comfortable in sharing my perspective on Alex' Race vs Extended Consciousness conundrum.

    If you do read my opinion, please know that it is just that. I cannot possibly know anything of the existence beyond this mortal life, only go by what I instinctively know to be true. As Human consciousness plays a central role in... well.. human consciousness, I'm sure I couldn't be far off the mark.
    It was the general belief of the Indo-European people that generational reincarnation occurred. The same chamber an elder was laid to rest in would be the same chamber a mother would enter to give birth, with the belief that the soul of the ancestor would incarnate into the body of the newborn. This was taken for granted by my ancestors and is very similar to almost all pre-historic peoples' beliefs of the soul. We can't know the exact detailed thoughts they had on questions of why this happened and whether incarnation into different tribes or races was somehow cosmically taboo or impossible, but we have to assume that if these people had such complicated beliefs and built burial tombs in the shape of the female reproductive system, they weren't stupid. What we do know is that it was a process of transmutation of the soul into Godhood and that the tribe/race was telling an epic story through the multiple generations. A son or daughter carried the burdens and the gifts of the father and mother, and they carried the burdens and gifts of the ancestors. Today, the only legitimate form of Shamanism that I know of involves the individual going back through their lineage and healing ancestral trauma. I'm certain that anyone who investigates this will find it to be true, but that leaves us with Alex' question of transracial migration of the soul.

    When we hear about people being regressed into or told about their past lives it always seems to be experiences of people in a different country - I, myself, have a distinct memory of being a four year old in 1800s Italy. Why? Could it be that we sometimes transmigrate to different tribes/races for a particular purpose or to learn something? Of all the potential 100s, 1,000s, or millions of lives we've led, we only remember one or two? Generally, our clearest memories are the spectacular, traumatic, or important ones. Maybe racial transmigration is a kind of cosmic Sensitivity Training or serves some other function we can't possibly comprehend.

    Note my use of words like "could", "maybe", "possibly", and "perhaps." I'm just trying to fit an anomalous piece of data into what our supremely wise and intelligent ancestors espoused since the dawn of time. If reincarnation has any purpose at all, surely it would be rendered meaningless if we transmigrated willy-nilly here and there. There's an incomprehensible order to this.

    No offense to my American and other New World friends like Alex, but I have to agree with Michael that you're leaving behind something vitally important. All of us here at home have to contend with our ancestral baggage, consciously or unconsciously, while you have run away from that pain and anguish. Of course it's easy for you to feel just fine being a Californian, New Yorker, or South African. That's what trauma does, allows us to forget. It's the same mechanism as birth or traumatic childhood abuse. We wipe ourselves clean and try to carry on as best we can. This might be the easy way to live your life, but there are many unresolved things lying underneath the surface waiting for you to address them. They're going to haunt you, in this life and for many lives to come.

    Related:

     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018

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