Miguel Conner, Gnosticism and the Evil Question |446|

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Miguel Conner, Gnosticism and the Evil Question |446|
by Alex Tsakiris | Apr 14 | Spirituality
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Miguel Conner explains how Gnosticism tackles the evil question.
photo by: Skeptiko
Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers thinkers and their critics. As the creator and host of Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio, Miguel Conner truly is veteran of a thousand existential deep dives. Through his interviews with nearly all of the notable esoteric thinkers of our time, Miguel has become recognized as a leading voice of not just Gnosticism, which has always been his foot in the door of your mind calling card, but the leader of, I think an undeniable alternative spirituality zeitgeist that we’re in the middle of.
So, it’s great to talk to Miguel… I’ve learned so much from him… he is one of my go-to mystics. It’s great to have you Miguel, thanks for joining me.
 
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I was very pleased that Miguel pointed out the way Schizophrenia is almost certainly a spiritual disease, and it treated conventionally in a totally inadequate way. This has always seemed to me to be one area where materialism really fails.

Then there was the clip of someone restating the core ideas of Christianity in a wonderfully disrespectful way (unfortunately Miguel forgot who said it).
What are we supposed to believe? God got mad at the human race for eating a piece of fruit in Armenia 6000 years ago. He got so mad at the human race, but he condemned everybody to eternal damnation, except he kind of felt bad about this afterward. So he set a part of himself down to have it tortured to death, which somehow made it all right. Except not really, because if you don’t buy this story, you’re still going to fry forever. Does that make any sense? Of course it doesn’t. It’s phrased in, of course elaborate theologies and rituals and doxologies, but it’s still ridiculous story.
Not only did it make me laugh, but it also reminded me that however clear it becomes that there is an afterlife, it is clear as mud as to what the overall goal is.

I am also glad that the concept that people make their own reality - which does seem very relevant.

David
 
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#6
I was very pleased that Miguel pointed out the way Schizophrenia is almost certainly a spiritual disease, and it treated conventionally in a totally inadequate way. This has always seemed to me to be one area where materialism really fails.

Then there was the clip of someone restating the core ideas of Christianity in a wonderfully disrespectful way (unfortunately Miguel forgot who said it).

Not only did it make me laugh, but it also reminded me that however clear it becomes that there is an afterlife, it is clear as mud as to what the overall goal is.

I am also glad that the concept that people make their own reality - which does seem very relevant.

David
It's not a disease because it doesn't exist. It's has no biological mechanism, neither does most other mental health issues. The DSM 5 uses to diagnose is under fire from mainstream and anti psychiatry components. You could be classified off of subjective opinion, that's scary. You could be classified schizophrenic in America by our standards and not in the UK.
There are studies about people who had brain encephalitis and got wrongly diagnosed with sczophrenia. In face on psychology.com one mainstream proponent was diagnosed and found out she had brain inflammation, so she is pushing to redefine how to diagnose it. So is it really spiritual?
 
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  • Contemporary thought may have a lot to learn by a scientific study of mind and consciousness from the perspective of the eminent Indian philosopher Jiddu Krishnamurti.
  • Awareness of the self is an essentiality for a free mind. We have always looked at our past and troubled ourselves, but it is important that we dwell inwards and free ourselves from our own ridicule and guilt. We must do this to avoid repression and self-blame.
  • Society can be organised or organic. An organic society is preferred as per Krishnamurti, where individuals have no choice but to dwell in that society, but one where the interests of the individual and of society are the same.
  • Religiosity and orthodox thought is often the result of conditioning from an early age.
  • One must cultivate an investigative and scientific mind.
  • There is no pleasure without difficulty; and living in totality, not in segments, is a must.
  • We often just dwell on one part of consciousness and miss its holistic nature.
  • One must uncover the mind, layer by layer, to achieve complete growth.
  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673342/
 
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It's not a disease because it doesn't exist. It's has no biological mechanism, neither does most other mental health issues. The DSM 5 uses to diagnose is under fire from mainstream and anti psychiatry components. You could be classified off of subjective opinion, that's scary. You could be classified schizophrenic in America by our standards and not in the UK.
There are studies about people who had brain encephalitis and got wrongly diagnosed with sczophrenia. In face on psychology.com one mainstream proponent was diagnosed and found out she had brain inflammation, so she is pushing to redefine how to diagnose it. So is it really spiritual?
Clearly you can't have a mechanism for a mental phenomenon - I suppose that this is a manifestation of the Hard Problem.
I think we basically agree, but have somewhat different definitions of that word 'disease'. I suppose I don't define disease as something exclusively biological, but as including mental phenomena.

David
 
#10
Geometry and fractals... I wish I was more able to get a handle on how the physical imposes.
Or why I can't seem to turn it on or off for myself except by physical means.

I know it's gonna come down to knowing "who" I really am, but this game of searching and reasoning is getting quite old (stagnant state).

All that rant aside, good god I have new respect for the breadth of Alex's understandings.
And incredible insights this guest has.
Very impressive show this one was.
 
#11
Right on, Miquel! I had a hard time dealing w/ some of the mystical literature b/c you were encouraged to be thoughtful, but then they threw in all this business about demonic forces & black substance, but after reading a lot more sources of this kind of thinking, I'm beginning to see how it works. It would be nice to think that we can have it both ways: a whole slew of projections by humans, but ignore as best we can things like mind parasites. I listened to a TED talk that made a lot of sense. This highly successful writer wants people to consider bringing back the idea of the daemon helping creative persons & take away that burden that seems to destroy so many artistic people too early & too often. Miguel, why don't you & Jeremy Irons have a contest to see who wins the best speaking voice, or , as my mother liked to call it, best bedroom voice?
 
#13
Great discussion Alex and Miguel.

I consider myself something of a neo gnostic. I see the mythology as a symbolic reflection of the psyche as I do other myths. Gnosticism turns much of christianity on it's head completley and symbolically speaking makes much more sense to me. I just wanted to share my perspectives as it relates to several points that were raised in the discussion.

I's start with the old alchemical concept of as above so below. That our inner world is a reflection of extended consciousness or beyond that cosmic consciousness. A fractal continuity so to speak. To take a page from Jung, we have our individual subconsciousness our individual consciousness and beyond that the collective (un)conscious with the ego the "i" that is the separation or the blockage between what we perceive as the individual and the larger collective consciousness.

Within ourselves we have the shadow the potential for evil, I see this as the lower consciousnes, the egoic materialistic demiurge along with the higher spiritual sun, the higher self or the god like aspect. The Gods exist within us and in this model so to speak also outside of us depending on the perspective of the separating ego. (Demiurge).

Symbolically the psyche is well represented by the symbol of baphomet which coincidentally enough using the Hebrew atbash cipher translates to Sophia the gnostic goddess of wisdom. So in this symbol we have both the light and the darkness, male and female, the horned donkey or goat headed god and the higher spiritual flame, the ignorant and the enlightenment. As above so below.
These motiff's are reflected in many myths and esoteric symbolism. Demiurge like gods are in many cultures from the biblical Yaweh, to Zuess, Odin etc... A creator god born of a higher god ultimately the Monad the one that flowed back upon itself causing self reflection and resulting individualization.

When we dream we create alters, our minds also individualize and separate into different personalities that seem distinct from ourselves and have personalities onto themselves. We see it also in the case of disassociative identity disorder where the mind splits into multiple personalities. The idealism folks, (I am one) consider this to be how the cosmic consciousness fragments into individual consciousness, yet the many are still the one.

Just as the Monad folded back on itself. In Dreams we do the same. As with evil, a nightmare, a demon, monster or predator is actually an alter your subconscious has created. Parts of your own shadow becoming manifest.

I suggest the individualization that we all experience in our dreams and even in mental conditions can occur at the level of the collective unconsciousness as well. These could be malevolent or benevolent entities or archetypes if you like seemingly independent to us depending if you perceive from one side of the separating "I" or Ego.

I believe this is symbolically reflected in the Gnostic myth of Sophia and her fall from the pleroma giving birth to the Demiurge. This abomination (Yaweh) was manifested from the goddess of wisdom through her intense desires. A accidental creation of hers, an alter. How we may manifest our own demons from our own shadow.

This is where I get a little out there with this if you don't think I already am that is.

This may also be happening with schizophrenia., even poltergeist and hauntings and other so called super natural phenomena.

Entities may come in a variety of manifestations. The simplest being the thought form. Single minded simplistic entities born of strong negative emotions, fear, anger, jealousy. They perpetuate themselves by inducing these states in human beings. This being there food basically. We could also call them lower archonic parasites.

The next level was mentioned in the show, Egregores. Born in the collective unconscious, so they can be cultural or religiously derived. More intelligent, mistaken for angels, Demons or even Gods. They can be secondary infections to a particular environment. Eg A haunting. Being more creative it can create more ways of feeding itself, through the environment and can use multiple people. When it becomes stronger it may manifest into a poltergeist effect.

I could go on but this is a long enough rant. I hope the continuity in idea is apparent. I needed lot's of words to try and convey a difficult concept. It is just my way of seeing things as I have had a few encounters I have struggled to rationalize, so I have given it a lot of thought and reflection and have a deep interest in the occult and mythology.
 
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#14
I dunno I just feel like this doesn't solve anything. It's like going from step 1 to step 10. For example bacteria and viruses. We could surmise they came from mutations, mother earth, or they were placed on earth by "entities" etc. I can't help but wonder how does this leap help? If anything it makes us more helpless? The easy way to gather attention is through superstition. Blaming everything on spirits is intellectually lazy and dangerous. To be honest most people on this message board/new agers would be classified as schizophrenic. I'm also noticing that word coming up a lot on social media. One girl I know got labeled that after turning in to a Jesus freak. She claimed she has demons because she did yoga. She seemed normal until she joined the church now she is batty. I wonder if new age beliefs/religion is increasing these diagnoses. Tribal villages. Schophrenia in and of itself is not real, many mainstream psychiatrist stand on this as well. The last author of the dsm wants it removed.
I'm getting the inkly religion/new age/occult groups are negatively affecting people. Maybe that's why some people believe the new age movement is a psy ops.

There's a huge Grey area
There was a recent study of people who don't even hear their own inner voice. I was shocked I thought everyone had an inner voice. Apparently this people only see images. The mind is a mystery and we should take a practical approach not to debunk other theories but to have a pragmatic groundwork to work from otherwise we go off on spiritual equation after equation ending up nowhere. Similar to Teslas quote
 
#15
To put it simply It's an extrapolation of what occurs in individual consciousness in a Jungian perspective of sorts. I can't show the steps from 1 to 10 as I can't show how consciousness actually comes to be, only that it is. Our consciousness individualizes and creates, eg. dream alters on the sub conscious level ( i don't know how it works, yet I do it as does everyone else who dreams) and dissociative identity disorder at the conscious level. These are readily perceived phenomena. (So below)

Going further, this individualization also occurs at the level of the collective unconscious, archetypes and egregores. For the spiritual this would occur at the God head. Spirits is one way of thinking the other is that it is all consciousness and simply what consciousness does. It is just a matter of perspective. following it to it's conclusion, there is really only one consciousness. (As above)

Removing that blockage, opening those doors could drive someone batty. What I am saying is that some of these entities are of our own creation.

The leap for many would be extrapolating into extended consciousness what we know happens in individual consciousness. For me not so much.
 
#16
There are such things as machines of destruction (evil?) made within a person's "private" or "owned" space which may also be thought of to be in a shared space... but no where could an outside detached viewer/researcher find those machines actually in the physical realm.

Technically, a human body thought up in a person's owned space is an example of such a machine.

Control. All the searching comes down to, "Who or what is in control here?"
And how are the decisions given the ok to go into effect.

Aesthetics might help to release from the automatic-like creating of these machines.
 
#18
#20
I posted this interview sometime back, this is one of the most amazing NDE experiences I have ever heard of or read about. It recounts a encounter with the Demiurge as well as the true light and remarks on the difference. Normally we would see these things culturally but the experiencer, Wayne Bush seems to have had no prior exposure to Gnosticism that I can tell. Since hearing I have recognized similar symbols and terminology attributed to what the experiencer believes to be the God, but it is not the actually the true light but something else.

"I think God split up, and I think what God created was a lesser aspect of herself" - Wayne Bush

He says herself because the true light is more feminine not that it is feminine but because it is neither and both.

If he had not been exposed the the Gnostic creation myth this statement is truly on the money. Amazing.

This story has stayed with me since I first encountered it. I've listened multiple times and will probably continue to do so. It is truly bitter sweet and extraordinarily profound story. It specifically addresses the question of Evil, it's place, it's purpose. the 2/3 light 1/3 darkness game of the Demiurge.

This is just an ordinary guy, definitely not a saint or a sage, but the wisdom that this experience has gifted him with is beyond any spiritual teacher I know.

I believe this is truth. You really need to hear this.




 
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