Miguel Conner, Gnosticism and the Evil Question |446|

#41
This post has Alex in mind -

I have heard you (Alex) make the point many times that so many people who have had an NDE, OBE or experience with "the spirit world" report an experience that fits within the "Christian" theme. When you make this point, I seem to get the feeling you suggest this "validates" (my word, not yours) the Christian theme of angels and God and loving relatives waiting for you in heaven, etc.

The more I have watched your Skeptikos, the more I think I "get" the Skeptiko process... and so I have doubts as to my earlier "leans" as to what you may have been implying. By saying this, if I am more so now "on the right track" as to your process... as "riled up" as I have sometimes been from what seems to be this "Skeptiko" thing where I feel you take a position and then, later, or in another video, you seem to attack that very position... I really do now (at least I think), "get it" - the Skeptiko way.

And so when you hit Miguel with that big "maybe!" and then you explained you are going "Skeptiko" on him... for the first time - I didn't get pissed off! Not because I also though, "maybe"... no, no. Because I have realized my own deficiency in always holding on to that all important "maybe," finally!

Apologies for the long "setup" but here's what I was thinking with regards to Miguel's position of which he is absolutely convinced -

My current opinion -

In one "zone of being" there is no "I" to be seduced into this world by some Demiurge.

In another zone of being, I am a soul, unfettered.

In another zone of being, I am a soul held hostage by the Demiurge and his creation.

I am all of those (and more)... and it is my responsibility, alone, as to which context I allow to be of the greatest influence at each and every moment.

The bottom line is - I am responsible for all my experiences, even when I allow myself to be tricked into thinking I am not. It is I who is the prisoner, it is I who is the trickster that I listened to whereby I found myself in the prison. It is I who is the Demiurge, it is I who doesn't see a matrix to begin with (thus no Demiurge).

Which of those (and others) do I decide is "true" moment to moment?
Liked for this:
"The bottom line is - I am responsible for all my experiences, even when I allow myself to be tricked into thinking I am not. It is I who is the prisoner, it is I who is the trickster that I listened to whereby I found myself in the prison. It is I who is the Demiurge, it is I who doesn't see a matrix to begin with (thus no Demiurge). "

A personally responsible point of view allows for memory to work for you.
What? "In my opinion?"
This is a forum. Play the reads as you will, but for "gods' sake" know you are doing it.

Thanks for that Sam
 
#42
Liked for this:
"The bottom line is - I am responsible for all my experiences, even when I allow myself to be tricked into thinking I am not. It is I who is the prisoner, it is I who is the trickster that I listened to whereby I found myself in the prison. It is I who is the Demiurge, it is I who doesn't see a matrix to begin with (thus no Demiurge). "

A personally responsible point of view allows for memory to work for you.
What? "In my opinion?"
This is a forum. Play the reads as you will, but for "gods' sake" know you are doing it.

Thanks for that Sam
Allow please this addition:
If personal responsibility does not resonate with you, inspect what you mean with "you".

Point of view:
Non-local spirit is the you.
So any item that can be localized (in word, symbol, or impression) is not non-local. Those are local.

My "signature" has "Claim your responsibility"
This means (in effect) try to own ALL.
When you know you can do this, you will be more familiar with non-local. More familiar with you. Actual owner of all.
 
#46
Copying and pasting from a phone is annoying lol
...a Freudian "copy paste" slip? haha... one issue some people have with the word, "soul" is that some feel the word is inseparable from "religion." Few, seem to agree on a definition.

I happen to define the word as follows - the container of my individuation. In other words, that within which "me" as an individualized expression in consciousness arises. I see the word to mean the same thing that Don Hoffman is pointing to when he uses the phrase, "conscious agent."
 
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lonevoice

#48
As for the claim of tulpas and egregores, see
You all need to watch this for a variety of reasons. It is skeptiko AT ITS BEST. Gary Schwartz is over the top in the supranormal, but demonstrates science at its very very best.

P.S. For yrs I thought Michael Jackson was a pedophile, but thanks to this video I now know the truth.
 
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#51
You all need to watch this for a variety of reasons. It is skeptiko AT ITS BEST. Gary Schwartz is over the top in the supranormal, but demonstrates science at its very very best.

P.S. For yrs I thought Michael Jackson was a pedophile, but thanks to this video I now know the truth.
Can you give me a bit more idea what this video is about before I spend an hour listening to it? Can you explain how it relates to Michael Jackson, whom I have also thought was a weirdo and probable paedophile.

David
 
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Baccarat

#52
Thank goodness I had not come upon "that" yet... or I might have bailed. In the past, I would bail learning of this. Now, I am able to consider information without throwing out the babies with the bathwater.
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/14/6841...es-3-000-page-translation-of-the-hebrew-bible
Take, for example, the word "soul" — you won't find it in Alter's translation.
"That's because the Hebrew word translated very often as 'soul' means something like 'life breath,' " Alter explains. "It's a very physical thing and there is no concept among the biblical writers in a split between body and soul. So I got rid of the soul."
 
#53
Those very same people left us Spiritual Wisdom too. Love of Wisdom has always been the highest virtue of Man. Philosophy comes from two Greek words, Love & Wisdom. The ruling families created counterfeit philosophical organizations (Corporate religions/ churches) to replace the three branches (Logic, Ethics, Physics) of Philosophy with Dogma and Doctrine, Fear, Superstition and ignorance. and explain how the powers that be, (The Elite Oligarchies) through their religious, political, monetary, corporate (etc) institutions, have been suppressing the true Science/ Religion that was bequeathed to us by more advanced civilizations i.e.: Egypt, Babylon, Persia, India, Greece etc. The science of the stars and
"...of stars and" life's relationship to them.
...in my opinion would be suitable for the missing or left out ending there.
 
#54
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/14/6841...es-3-000-page-translation-of-the-hebrew-bible
Take, for example, the word "soul" — you won't find it in Alter's translation.
"That's because the Hebrew word translated very often as 'soul' means something like 'life breath,' " Alter explains. "It's a very physical thing and there is no concept among the biblical writers in a split between body and soul. So I got rid of the soul."
Yes, some people choose not to have the concept of an individualized expression of consciousness that isn't dependent on expression through a single living physical body as a possibility within their set of all possibilities, therefore, would have no need for such a word.

Of course, they then would not be able to have a discussion with someone who does have "soul" (as I define it) unless it is an argument for against this possibility.

In my operational process, I remain ever open minded to all possibility. I strive to be honest as to what "i know" (or at least think I know) and what I take on as an assumption (commonly called "a belief"). I "believe" this process has allowed me to experience meaningfulness and thus, a great deal of meaningful experiences which, when I look back to when I was a materialist.physicalist/scientism based atheist, is far more fulfilling. But all that I just stated was from a single point of view, my own.

What I have also discovered is how my current process seems to generate a form of being which, based on my observations but even more so based on the commentary I receive from others, raises the sense of meaningfulness and increases the general feelings of fulfillment with my loved ones and close friends.

So I make my case supporting my current process (which assumes "soul" as I define it) because of how this benefits others as well as myself. And I don't have "to know" for certain, there be "soul" (as I define it).

One last point... if all there is to life is "you" (and anyone for that matter) are born, live, die and that;s it... there was no you (or essential you) prior to your birth and there will not be after your death... considering how short life is and considering how the vast majority of us have just about zero impact in a single lifetime on anything lasting... what does any of this matter then anyways?

Just something to think about.
 
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Baccarat

#56
Yes, some people choose not to have the concept of an individualized expression of consciousness that isn't dependent on expression through a single living physical body as a possibility within their set of all possibilities, therefore, would have no need for such a word.

Of course, they then would not be able to have a discussion with someone who does have "soul" (as I define it) unless it is an argument for against this possibility.

In my operational process, I remain ever open minded to all possibility. I strive to be honest as to what "i know" (or at least think I know) and what I take on as an assumption (commonly called "a belief"). I "believe" this process has allowed me to experience meaningfulness and thus, a great deal of meaningful experiences which, when I look back to when I was a materialist.physicalist/scientism based atheist, is far more fulfilling. But all that I just stated was from a single point of view, my own.

What I have also discovered is how my current process seems to generate a form of being which, based on my observations but even more so based on the commentary I receive from others, raises the sense of meaningfulness and increases the general feelings of fulfillment with my loved ones and close friends.

So I make my case supporting my current process (which assumes "soul" as I define it) because of how this benefits others as well as myself. And I don't have "to know" for certain, there be "soul" (as I define it).

One last point... if all there is to life is "you" (and anyone for that matter) are born, live, die and that;s it... there was no you (or essential you) prior to your birth and there will not be after your death... considering how short life is and considering how the vast majority of us have just about zero impact in a single lifetime on anything lasting... what does any of this matter then anyways?

Just something to think about.
That's how I felt, upon doing research for nearly 5 years, nothing solid formed. The new age occult community is full of hucksters, scam artists, ego maniacs and people who are lonely and have no friends. The nuances of different opinions is way to broad to bring in to a working. Clashing of opinions research and etymology, metaphors, dates, interpretation makes you realize no one has a solid foundation on any of this stuff. Besides what do you gain or lose from being an occultist or new ager or hyper religious? Most of these people are dead broke, lead seemingly miserable lives and have nothing to show for. They breathe live and die like us, like an atheist. They claim they want to transcend then why don't they end their lives? Now I'm not saying they should I don't condone that but they make living sound so miserable you have to wonder some times what exactly their angle is? Why not do things you enjoy doing like playing a poker game or traveling the words, creating an app that helps people. Does that make you any less spiritual? In fact if you do create something to help people you'd be more "spiritual" than some false preaching prophet who ask for 1000 for a yoga retreat or doing ayahuasca. Being to subjective is dangerous, because it's based on personal research, experience and opinion. There literally is no end to what you can imagine. It has to be tempered with rationality, with an open mind. I'm more focused now on my health, nature, travel, workouts, sex, astronomy and medicine, all types of medicine and I can't forget tech. Every human being regardless of what cult they are has a nuanced opinion on the nature of life. The reason I think you're mind can give you messages is because of your curiosity, they brain will organize the random programming to come up with the best answer. I enjoy the mystery now instead of trying to "solve" it. Let it be what's its gonna be I'm enjoying life its short,for me why waste it on something with no evidence?
 
#57
I enjoy the mystery now instead of trying to "solve" it.
Me too... and I also love to discuss it with others... and like all good mysteries, everything about it keeps changing, new stuff keeps appearing. I try on a theory today and BAM, new information arrives that blows it apart or expands it to something it wasn't before... and it never seems to stop doing that.

Let it be what's its gonna be I'm enjoying life its short,for me why waste it on something with no evidence?
The voice inside says "Sam... that's damn good advice. And you know it." Yet I seem to always find myself forgetting that advice. I must be a masochist at heart.
 
#58
Me too... and I also love to discuss it with others... and like all good mysteries, everything about it keeps changing, new stuff keeps appearing. I try on a theory today and BAM, new information arrives that blows it apart or expands it to something it wasn't before... and it never seems to stop doing that.



The voice inside says "Sam... that's damn good advice. And you know it." Yet I seem to always find myself forgetting that advice. I must be a masochist at heart.
"I must be a masochist at heart. "
Something rings "ok" as in an acknowledgement on that.

But on that, in our mind spaces we model out comparatives or names for what we were just surprised to recognize about ourselves or think we should be surprised about.
However, as we are individual souls (though non-local) we basically know anything we say that we are is only for try-it-on purposes.
Nothing sticks longer than we know it to be sticking for ourselves.

Politicians who understand that well, can get their public image to change and morph into almost anything - and get away with it.
Sometimes we hold ourselves to a "higher" standard for integrity. Something like "be true to yourself". But this is a kind of masochist attitude if we see ourselves as the impression we created for others, or wanted to create.

Probably the only actual truth we could hold ourselves to be true to is that we (or individually "I") exist.
Anything else is up to whatever I accomplish (which ain't much for myself if I must say so myself).
 
#59
I was very pleased that Miguel pointed out the way Schizophrenia is almost certainly a spiritual disease, and it treated conventionally in a totally inadequate way. This has always seemed to me to be one area where materialism really fails.

Then there was the clip of someone restating the core ideas of Christianity in a wonderfully disrespectful way (unfortunately Miguel forgot who said it).

Not only did it make me laugh, but it also reminded me that however clear it becomes that there is an afterlife, it is clear as mud as to what the overall goal is.

I am also glad that the concept that people make their own reality - which does seem very relevant.

David
I’ve always had the thought that “if one suffers from major depression, who ought they go see? A man in a white coat who will give them pills for it? Or a Buddhist monk who has mastered the psychological/spiritual aspect of life, and who has entered a state of ‘enlightenment.’ And is a man who almost fears nothing and is able to Maintain a near constant state of peace and happiness?”

The answer is clearly the Buddhist monk. But it’s not the socially popular answer. Also, swallowing some pills allow us to take action against depression in a less demanding way. The Buddhist monk would seriously put us to work. And people feel they don’t have time for that. But no way is pill swallowing nearly as effective. I don’t think our therapy methods would stack up well to the monks methods either. I’m speaking more about generalized anxiety and depression here than I am some of the more serious psychological conditions. But perhaps much of this is true for those conditions as well?
 
#60
I’ve always had the thought that “if one suffers from major depression, who ought they go see? A man in a white coat who will give them pills for it? Or a Buddhist monk who has mastered the psychological/spiritual aspect of life, and who has entered a state of ‘enlightenment.’ And is a man who almost fears nothing and is able to Maintain a near constant state of peace and happiness?”

The answer is clearly the Buddhist monk. But it’s not the socially popular answer. Also, swallowing some pills allow us to take action against depression in a less demanding way. But no way is it nearly as effective. I’m speaking more about generalized anxiety and depression here than I am some of the more serious psychological conditions. But perhaps much of this is true for those conditions as well?
Liked for the proposing non-white coat helping sources.
 
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