Naturalism has failed, so naturalists resort to legislation.

I don't believe in the natural, so I'm with you to a certain degree.

I'm sort of with you on the island in the chaos idea. It goes back to Feyman's nets that I mentioned in my last post, and how Wigner noted there's nothing natural about natural laws - we don't have to live in a reality that makes sense from a mathematical/mechanical perspective.

That said, I would like some ironclad parapsychological data to come out as, if nothing else, I think it will be a grand boon for philosophy.
 
You sound almost as though you want to deliberately avoid seeing or believing any truth that might provide comfort.
That is a very odd position!
Cannot we be satisfied with what is true? (That is, what explains all proper evidence about nature, mind and spirituality).

Curious - Do you mean finding a livable truth, or an absolute truth?
 
The only livable truth would be one that is absolutely true. Otherwise we just live a lie.

Well, it seems there must be absolute truth, but evidently we don't know what it is. In our ignorance, we are forced to live according to some kind of conception or interpretation or belief, even if that happens to be complete nihilism. Most of us carry on living by choice and don't commit suicide, so apparently we're all living a lie: might as well just accept that. Thinking about it, this is the nearest to truth we can approach. Some would call it humility, I suppose: accepting our own ignorance.
 
You sound almost as though you want to deliberately avoid seeing or believing any truth that might provide comfort.
That is a very odd position!
Cannot we be satisfied with what is true? (That is, what explains all proper evidence about nature, mind and spirituality).

You've given me something to think about. You're probably right.

But what about a truth to suit everybody? One person's fantasy is another person's nightmare as we all know from the sadomasochistic literature. So maybe I'm just too empathetic to want there to be truth :)
 
Well, it seems there must be absolute truth, but evidently we don't know what it is. In our ignorance, we are forced to live according to some kind of conception or interpretation or belief, even if that happens to be complete nihilism. Most of us carry on living by choice and don't commit suicide, so apparently we're all living a lie: might as well just accept that. Thinking about it, this is the nearest to truth we can approach. Some would call it humility, I suppose: accepting our own ignorance.
I think the whole point about spiritual life is to learn and live what is true. After all, the truth will set us free.
I happen to believe that God is continually trying to tell us what is true and good (and so suitable for living), but we so often resist understanding / seeing / listening. It seems so to me. But we seem to all have our prejudices about what truth should look like, and that does not often allow us to see what is true.
 
I think the whole point about spiritual life is to learn and live what is true. After all, the truth will set us free.

If you substituted "to try to learn" for "to learn", I think we'd agree more, but in a way, the truth doesn't set you free, because it offers no reasonable alternative to acting in accord with it. I've mentioned elsewhere the analogy of the perfect chess player who knows exactly the best move to make. If that were possible, making an intentionally inferior move would set one free. The only freedom we have is to do the wrong thing, which we do a lot of the time because of our ignorance.

I happen to believe that God is continually trying to tell us what is true and good (and so suitable for living), but we so often resist understanding / seeing / listening. It seems so to me. But we seem to all have our prejudices about what truth should look like, and that does not often allow us to see what is true.

I'd hazard a guess that that's the lapsed Catholic way of expressing it.;) Put another way, I'd say that at some level, we sense what is nearer the truth but think acting in some other way is better. That's us exercising our free choice the do the wrong thing.
 
I happen to know that we lapsed Catholics are a secret fifth column on this forum.:)

Well, add one lapsed Russian Orthodox Christian to the mix! As well as lapsed anti-theist. I was both, and I'm happy I'm neither Orthodox Cristian nor anti-theist anymore. These were two grand exercises of social, intellectual and experiential self-limitation. As an agnostic, I changed from limitation to exploration. My best recommendation for anyone. :D
 
Well, it seems there must be absolute truth, but evidently we don't know what it is. In our ignorance, we are forced to live according to some kind of conception or interpretation or belief, even if that happens to be complete nihilism. Most of us carry on living by choice and don't commit suicide, so apparently we're all living a lie: might as well just accept that. Thinking about it, this is the nearest to truth we can approach.
To me, that sounds like nihilism. :)
Some would call it humility, I suppose: accepting our own ignorance.
But accepting our ignorance is different from accepting that it will ever be so.

Pat
 
If you substituted "to try to learn" for "to learn", I think we'd agree more, but in a way, the truth doesn't set you free, because it offers no reasonable alternative to acting in accord with it.
I interpret "The truth will set you free" as being less about free will than it is about being free from the negative consequences of ignorance. But I do think that some of those consequences consist of our being slaves to choices driven by influences of which we are only dimly aware, if at all.

Pat
 
I interpret "The truth will set you free" as being less about free will than it is about being free from the negative consequences of ignorance. But I do think that some of those consequences consist of our being slaves to choices driven by influences of which we are only dimly aware, if at all.

Pat

I agree. A lot of the the time, we run on autopilot.
 
Well, add one lapsed Russian Orthodox Christian to the mix! As well as lapsed anti-theist. I was both, and I'm happy I'm neither Orthodox Cristian nor anti-theist anymore. These were two grand exercises of social, intellectual and experiential self-limitation. As an agnostic, I changed from limitation to exploration. My best recommendation for anyone. :D

Yup. Agnosticism is where all the cool kids are.
 
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