NDE and the race problem: a retrospective, and some new thoughts

#41
Hello Steve. Again, an assumption that blacks "don't make videos about NDEs" while actually having NDEs needs to be backed up with actual data.
The blog you point to is yet another internet location discussing my original posts on another forum, so I am familiar with it already.
Actually my favourite NDE video features a black man called Roland WebbPhD


Is one enought to prove that they do exist ? There must be others somewhere I would think ? The three people in this video seem really genuine, to me at least.

I thought you might be aware of the blog comments, but thought it was worth posting anyway.
 
#42
I am a Chinese, and I think I'm a very typical Chinese, for example, was born in China mainland, grown up in one of the top 20 biggest cities in China with 8 millions of population. What would I say about this? I am thinking ...
China has more than 13 0000 0000 = 1.3 000 000 000 = 1.3 billion people, 1/5 of the global population. I dread I made a mistake in the numbers, but anyway just around that "large" concept.

Yes, publicly, Chinese hospital has official records about nde. Chinese science research organizations and universities fully acknowledge the existence of this phenomenon, and we have formally documented accounts, though nde accounts have never been taken into serious consideration, they are just there, archived.

And personally, I once listened face to face to a doctor talking about one nde or nde-like account he encountered (with verified obe observation but not very impressive level of information quantity, the patient said correctly about the exact seats his family members were on while waiting during his surgery).

But nde is not, and has never been a somehow "hot" phenomenon both among folks and academies. NDE phenomenon has the least, the very very little prevalence in China.
Let me share my opinions about the reason behind this:

1, Chinese people are relatively poor according to the western standards. Our social assurance can't guarantee everyone of us on receiving the proper medical care (require us to spend tons of money to receive proper treatment otherwise no one would help us so severe illness would be a disaster to any family), the decent education for our children (money money without money the society doesn't care about you being an illiterate), etc. I don't extend on this. Our government is one of the greatest government ever in the human history and also among today internation, because it's a great challenge for any organization to unite and administer such large population. But that to which not a reasonable target to be blamed, is the fact that various social drawbacks and problems are just inevitable. This induces several social problems which are absent in western countries:

1.1, Most of Chinese people are very PRACTICAL, PRAGMATIC, (I don't know which word is more proper), we have scarcely time or money to care about something unrelated to basic living. Trans-european journey belongs to westerners, activities of cuddling lovely pets belong to westerners, religious faiths belong to westerners, paranormal interests belong to westerners, we just work harder and harder to earn the basic living or assurance to our future livings. Someone would tell me, oh, he knows some of Chinese people do believe in Buddha, Christian, etc, yes, that's right but we do not spend money on this kind of "believe" unless some of us are too rich.

1.2, The eagerness to live and live better, impales someone on hobby of juggling as a charlatan, western charlatans are wiser, but Chinese charlatans' quantity is larger. And funny enough, with an environment ubiquitous of charlatans, we are more immune to deceit. Since Chinese people are relatively poor, yesterday I was credulous and lost 100 dollars, today I'm credulous again and lost 200 dollars, tomorrow I won't be credulous again otherwise I would starve. So we generally don't believe paranormal, superstitious things, etc unless someone would provide really tangible evidences.

2, In China mainland we can't access youtube, unless using proxy but those are not stable. For the reason, oh, various, but I can't enumerate them. However, I respect our government's foreign websites blocking policies, no matter for any reasons.

3, Most of Chinese people do not bother learning foreign languages, yes, not even as bad as mine.

4, 5, many other I can't think of ...

To be short, there won't be many trustworthy nde accounts in China to expect, we can easily categorize any reported nde accounts into biological explanation, delirious, brain damage, self-deceive or deceive (I don't mean with malicious purpose of course). If I never heard about western nde accounts, I would probably ignore this thingy and consider it as unscientific as batman legends. Just my personal opinion, though I know my ethnics better and closer. The people surrounding me, all, I mean an absolute all, except me, never heard about the term - nde and never would take interests in it.
Whatever. You're no chinaman. But the answer to the lack of NDEs among chinaman would be the same as to the lack of NDEs among westerners 300 hundred years ago. I'm basing this on your own analysis. This is pretty basic shit. I'd think a chinaman would be smarter.
 
#43
Actually my favourite NDE video features a black man called Roland WebbPhD


Is one enought to prove that they do exist ? There must be others somewhere I would think ? The three people in this video seem really genuine, to me at least.

I thought you might be aware of the blog comments, but thought it was worth posting anyway.
Actually my favourite NDE video features a black man called Roland WebbPhD


Is one enought to prove that they do exist ? There must be others somewhere I would think ? The three people in this video seem really genuine, to me at least.

I thought you might be aware of the blog comments, but thought it was worth posting anyway.
Steve, it has never been my case that they don't exist, only that they are massively underneath their social demographic. By the way, I've not seen that one before, so thanks for posting it.
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#44
Right...another guy with an evangelical ministry. Honestly, I would be very very suspicious of anyone with that in their setup. Well...I certainly am, anyway.
Kai, are you getting the right link?? It's Donna Potts, a black woman.

Never mind, Kai, I see you saw this one, and were talking about the Rwanda one.
 
#46
Kai, are you getting the right link?? It's Donna Potts, a black woman.

Never mind, Kai, I see you saw this one, and were talking about the Rwanda one.
Yes, I know which link you are talking about.
We're still left with about 4 legitimate-seeming AA NDEs in US media, from a population of almost 42 million African Americans.

Atwater's claim that 20% of NDEs are from AAs would generate a number of 6.4 million AA NDEs, assuming a 10% population incidence. Assuming a 5% population incidence it would be 3.2 million.

Assuming we cut the size of Atwater's assumption by a factor of one THOUSAND, you would still have 6400 AA NDEs in visible media, other things being equal.

Our visible sample actually has a demographic representation of appx 0.00002% of the population, or expressed in other terms, two in every ten million.
 
Last edited:
#47
Stated in alternative words, what we actually see...until proven otherwise, suggests that AAs have NDEs at the rate of a handful per 10 million African American citizens. And anyone who doesn't think that's a problem isn't living in the real world.

I have been pretty generous, too, in assuming a 10% NDE incidence.
 
#48
Also, black Americans may be more religious than white Americans, and may be more involved in the fundamentalist ones, percentage/ratio-wise. If so, then they might tend to report them NDEs less frequently, for fear of being expelled from their local church community, and their larger religion-heavy community as a whole. Maybe whites have less to lose because their ties to the local secular and church communities aren't as strong or necessary for survival.
Agreed, this is basically what I said above, but apparently it's not a good enough reason for Kai. However, I think this is an important aspect of the African American religious experience that shouldn't be overlooked when researching the frequency ( or perceived lack thereof) of NDEs in the AA population.
 
#49
Agreed, this is basically what I said above, but apparently it's not a good enough reason for Kai. However, I think this is an important aspect of the African American religious experience that shouldn't be overlooked when researching the frequency ( or perceived lack thereof) of NDEs in the AA population.
Well, I already kind of covered that in my OP, except the form of spiritual worship might itself make NDEs among AAs less frequent.
But without proper research...one guess is as good as another.
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#50
Actor Lou Gossett Jr. has had NDEs, allegedly:

Accomplished actor Lou Gossett Jr., famous for his role as a drill sergeant in An Officer and a Gentleman, has had five near-death experiences. Lou's most intriguing encounter occurred at the age of twelve. While playing baseball, he fell into a deep hole and experienced a brilliant tunnel of light. He also recalls a past incarnation as a pirate with a harem off the coast of Morocco.
http://www.near-death.com/famous.html

---
 
#52
I think he's trying to make the point that what you see as a "problem" isn't really a problem at all.

Two major factors I think can be pointed to:

1) under reporting by the AA or African community for a host of varied reasons

2) a paranormal research community predominantly headed, funded and reported by white, "western" males.

Edit: so it's not that blacks in particular are not having NDEs. They in all likelihood are. But see point 1) and 2) above as to why we don't hear about it as often.
 
#53
I think he's trying to make the point that what you see as a "problem" isn't really a problem at all.

Two major factors I think can be pointed to:

1) under reporting by the AA or African community for a host of varied reasons

2) a paranormal research community predominantly headed, funded and reported by white, "western" males.

Edit: so it's not that blacks in particular are not having NDEs. They in all likelihood are. But see point 1) and 2) above as to why we don't hear about it as often.
Interesting ideas, Vault. The next step would actually be to build any kind of specific evidence that they are a) active in this arena and b) sufficient to account for the discrepancy in media. And last time I looked, youtube could hardly be described as a "paranormal research community." Glad to see you at least engaging with the question though.

Personally, I see the general desire to sweep the question under the carpet as much more worrisome.
 
#54
Personally, I see the general desire to sweep the question under the carpet as much more worrisome.
I don't see any such desire ?

I see the question being raised and some probable answers to the question in Vaults post. I don't see this as a problem of NDE's as such , but as is often the case the 'problem' lies with human culture. It is an interesting question, but it would probably take decades to properly research and document to come up with a paper titled ' The Underreporting of NDE's by African Americans', which probably would come to similar conclusions as Vault has here in a much less troublesome way.

Or are you getting at something different which I'm not understanding ?

I think he's trying to make the point that what you see as a "problem" isn't really a problem at all.

Two major factors I think can be pointed to:

1) under reporting by the AA or African community for a host of varied reasons

2) a paranormal research community predominantly headed, funded and reported by white, "western" males.

Edit: so it's not that blacks in particular are not having NDEs. They in all likelihood are. But see point 1) and 2) above as to why we don't hear about it as often.
 
#55
I remember reading an article noting that African Americans had a tendency to underreport conditions that may lead to peer judgement. It dealt with agoraphobia in particular. Is anybody familiar with that piece here?
 
#57
I don't see any such desire ?

I see the question being raised and some probable answers to the question in Vaults post. I don't see this as a problem of NDE's as such , but as is often the case the 'problem' lies with human culture. It is an interesting question, but it would probably take decades to properly research and document to come up with a paper titled ' The Underreporting of NDE's by African Americans', which probably would come to similar conclusions as Vault has here in a much less troublesome way.

Or are you getting at something different which I'm not understanding ?
I understand.

We all have a desire for the uiniversalistic assumption about NDEs to be actually true. It reaches us as offensive and an affront to that belief when we seem to stumble upon something that violates this assumption, and violates it somewhat dramatically. We want there to be an "easy fix." This is even more the case, I think, with the 90% of people who pass near death and have no experience whatsoever, than with the problem discussed in this thread. Is it possible to suggest an 'easy fix'? Sure. "They may all be having NDEs and not remembering them"...is the most popular one. It's just that this is bare assumption without specific evidence.

With respect to AAs not reporting for whatever reason, this is a good enough starting hypothesis for a study, nothing more. Without actually doing those studies, it can in no sense be assumed to have actual validity just because it may "seem" so in a popular sense or because a few people have a hunch that it might be true. If those studies "take decades" ... well, so what? Many things worth knowing take decades to establish, and this is especially true in socio-cultural spaces where long term tracking and notorious difficulty in procuring the necessary information, can be the norm.

I don't know what the answer is. I am only showing up the problem. I am not dead set against the idea that AAs are having experiences and not reporting them. I am only against the unstudied opinion that this is the solution. It might be that. It might be that the experience is simply not universalistic. It might be biological differences. Who knows what it is?

There is some value to be had in an AA researcher investigating the issue with AA communities. That this itself does not really appear to have happened at any significant level, even in popular media, strikes me as part of the larger curiosity. In other words, no one has really come forward from AA communities and said "hey, NDEs aren't just had by all you white guys y'know...you don't have a monopoly on this...here's 150 accounts I collected from within my own community..."

It's the fact that there aren't even any online communities where AAs discuss these experiences among themselves. See, to me that is one of the more worrying indicators. There are plenty of African American discussion forums. There are plenty of NDE discussion forums. I have found places in AA forums that mention them once or twice, in a single thread kind of thing, but again nothing systematic. All NDE forums are choc full of whites.

I've said it before, but the profile seems very similar with respect to AAs and "UFO experiences." Whatever one takes those experiences to be, there is an enormous empirical dearth of them in reported media from AA sources. Again, you can find a very isolated few, but nothing systematic. To me, this suggests something deeper than just "not reporting." It tends to suggest a root difference in the style of constructing spiritual experiences. But I repeat: no speculation or smug acceptance can take the place of actual, carefully drawn research.
 
Last edited:

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#58
This is not a molehill.

Of course, the absence of black NDEs des not necessarily invalidate Caucasion NDEs, and I am not saying any such thing. But perhaps NDEs are just not a universal experience after all.
Kai, I'm going through the older posts in this thread more closely (sorry for not doing that in the first place). If you allow me to say this, you're kind of hard to follow, because sometimes you seem to be saying there are less AA NDEs because there might be less (implying there are some), and you find that an interesting question to ask and research, but then you say stuff like this: "the absence of black NDEs".

Putting aside the reporting issue for a moment, if there are some, there are some - which means it's a "universal" experience (unless by "universal" we mean that every human being near death has an NDE, which of course is not what NDE researchers mean by "universal experience").

Smithy, here, reports having received 2 NDE reports just this week from non-western-educated Congolese people. So obviously there are non-Caucasian NDEs.

I understand, however, if you find it a meaningful question to want to explore the perceived relative paucity of non-Caucasian (or specifically black) NDEs vs. Caucasian NDEs.
 
Last edited:
#59
My guess might be that blacks tend to have at least folk memories of beliefs such as Voodoo, that they want to suppress. Could it be that NDE's scare them in some way, and they suppress them.

I think people here have contributed enough examples to indicate that it is only a question of relative frequency, and that could easily be explained by cultural differences.

BTW, is anyone here black, and can they comment?

David
 
#60
Kai, I'm going through the older posts in this thread more closely (sorry for not doing that in the first place). If you allow me to say this, you're kind of hard to follow, because sometimes you seem to be saying there are less AA NDEs because there might be less (implying there are some), and you find that an interesting question to ask and research, but then you say stuff like this: "the absence of black NDEs".

Putting aside the reporting issue for a moment, if there are some, there are some - which means it's a "universal" experience (unless by "universal" we mean that every human being near death has an NDE, which of course is not what NDE researchers mean by "universal experience").

Smithy, here, reports having received 2 NDE reports just this week from non-western-educated Congolese people. So obviously there are non-Caucasian NDEs.

I understand, however, if you find it a meaningful question to want to explore the perceived relative paucity of non-Caucasian (or specifically black) NDEs vs. Caucasian NDEs.
I think you are getting stuck on language, where the problem is in visible proportions of experiences among two identifiable populations. In one population, these experiences have widespread and easy visibility. In another, they are almost invisible if they are there in significant numbers at all. It would be problematic to call something "universal" if there are orders of magnitude difference in its expression in different populations.
 
Top