NDE Life Review and Eating Animals

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#3
People who have Near Death Experiences often return with changed attitudes, often regarding consumption of meat. Some even come straight out and say The Smell of Meat Reminds Them Of HELL, and another even confirmed they were told No One Who Eats Meat Can Stay Here (in Heaven).

http://www.unexplainable.net/meditation/Near-Death-Experiences-and-Meat-Eating.php

Specific NDEs quoted after, including this one:

Marta Y NDE
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/marta_y_nde.htm

"Like all other beings, you are living in order to accomplish a mission, and you are not doing this. You must change you way of living, you are supposed to help many other beings, and you are not doing so. You have to stop eating meat, as no one who eats meat can remain here."
 
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Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#4
More specifically related to the life review - from Tom Sawyer's:

I wish that I could tell you how it really felt and what the life review is like, but I'll never be able to do it accurately. I'm hoping to give you just a slight inkling of what is available to each and every one of you. Will you be totally devastated by the crap you've brought into other people's lives? Or will you be equally enlightened and uplifted by the love and joy that you have shared in other people's lives?

Well, guess what? It pretty much averages itself out. You will be responsible for yourself, judging and reliving what you have done to everything and everybody in very far-reaching ways. Very small, seemingly inconsequential things such as the day when I, nine years old, walked through Seneca Park and loved the appearance of a tree. In my life review I could experience a bit of what the tree experienced in my loving it, two little photons of love and adoration. It was somewhat like the leaves acknowledging my presence. Can a tree experience that? Yes, it can. Don't go kicking trees anymore!

You do have that effect on plants. You do have an effect on animals. You do have an effect on the universe. And in your life review you'll be the universe and experience yourself in what you call your lifetime and how it affects the universe. In your life review you'll be yourself absolutely, in every aspect of time, in every event, in the over-all scheme of things in your lifetime. Your life.

The little bugs on your eyelids that some of you don't even know exist. That's an interrelationship, you with yourself and these little entities that are living and surviving on your eyelids. When you waved a loving goodbye to a good friend the other day, did you affect the clouds up above? Did you actually affect them? Does a butterfly's wings in China affect the weather here? You better believe it does? You can learn all of that in a life review!


http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/thomas-sawyer.html
 
#5
Don't go kicking trees anymore!
This reminds me of something which happened to me a couple of decades ago.

Since childhood, walking in the woodland near to where I live had been a way to relax, to get away from the stresses of everyday life, just being there, in sunshine or in rain was a deeply calming experience. One day, walking alone through the woods I picked up a large, rounded pebble which was on the ground. It had a nice weight, and just feeling it swing in my hand was quite relaxing, it gave a certain rhythm to my step as I walked. At some point, as I was walking, swinging my arms with each stride, I banged the stone against a tree trunk as I passed. The shock was almost electric. It wasn't like the pleasant thump as my feet struck the ground with each stride, it was an altogether different type of feeling. It seemed I felt the jolt from the tree's perspective.

I suppose the surprise really was that this must have been something which I'd done before, not regularly, but as a child I'd banged rocks against many things - though thankfully not over someone's head :) - without (knowingly) eliciting that sort of response. I think for the adult experience I'd been in a sort of meditation as I walked, which opened up the boundaries.
 
#6
Are there any NDE life reviews where people have to feel the suffering of all the animals that they ate during their lifetime? It would seem odd if the life review only included effects that we may have had on other humans.
I think about this a lot, actually. Not so much as eating the animals, since this life on earth requires us to eat one another, but when I have caused an animal unnecessary pain. I still cringe at the two times I accidentally killed baby frogs. Or the times I have lost patience with my pets and acted like an ass (though I have never kicked or beat an animal). To me it's the same with my kids -- I regret losing patience with them and yelling at them. I just work on never doing it again.

I remember when I was around thirteen and my family was moving (AGAIN) and I was packing boxes in my room. For some reason, I don't know why, I found a pin and decided to prick my cat with it. He yelped and ran away. I never forgave myself for it. I have no idea why I did it, but it bothers me to this day.

My brother, an animal lover, still talks about how he was angry about something when he was a teen, and our dog ran up to him and he kicked her. For no reason, just that he was angry. He still hasn't forgiven himself for it.

When I think about the "life review," I do wonder if my causing animals pain counts, as I certainly hate myself for the times I've been cruel to them. (To be clear, I have never beat an animal, but I have yelled and punished (not physically, to be clear) them in anger.)

I have been a vegetarian for twenty years, not because I think it is wrong to eat animals, but because of the conditions they are kept in (factory farming, etc). I was a vegan for three of those years, but it didn't work out.

I used to have a common nightmare that I was neglecting an animal that I "forgot about." I would remember it existed, and then I would find it starving and dehydrated in some forgotten room of my house, or in a garage. I hated that dream. (These animals didn't exist, but I had this nightmare several times over the years, but I haven't had one in the last ten years.) I'm sure that dream is begging for analysis, but I hated it so much I just put it out of my mind, as I really try to love and care for my pets. Those dreams always ruined my day, and I would love and kiss all over my pets afterward.

But here I am rambling again. The point was that I wondered if I ever did get a life review, would I see my actions through the eyes of my pets?
 
#7
I remember when I was around thirteen and my family was moving (AGAIN) and I was packing boxes in my room. For some reason, I don't know why, I found a pin and decided to prick my cat with it. He yelped and ran away. I never forgave myself for it. I have no idea why I did it, but it bothers me to this day.
I wouldn't worry about it. I think the important thing is that you already understand that situation enough to not repeat it. I suspect that though such events may appear in a life review, it might well be some other events which you are not nearly so aware of, some forgotten incidents, both good and bad, which might take more prominence.

I used to have a common nightmare that I was neglecting an animal that I "forgot about." I would remember it existed, and then I would find it starving and dehydrated in some forgotten room of my house, or in a garage. I hated that dream. (These animals didn't exist, but I had this nightmare several times over the years, but I haven't had one in the last ten years.) I'm sure that dream is begging for analysis, but I hated it so much I just put it out of my mind, as I really try to love and care for my pets. Those dreams always ruined my day, and I would love and kiss all over my pets afterward.
I'll start with a disclaimer first. I'm in no way qualified to comment on others' dreams, though I'm sometimes able to unravel my own dreams. Having said that, this "neglected animal that you 'forgot about'" sounds like a part of yourself. It could perhaps represent the neglected spiritual side, or maybe possibly some talent or skill, or unfulfilled ambition that you once had, and which was asking to be brought forward.
 
#8
I really do want to know the answer to this question.

I can only conclude that it is a choice, like every other aspect of our lives. Specifically I am talking of the vegetarian/vegan "option" but also of all the intentions and interactions that we have with other living beings.

When I was a young adult, I was a strict vegetarian but I did not have the understanding, experience and conscientiousness of the animals under my care that I do now. I cringe at the mistakes that I made in the care of animals entrusted to me. Strangely, it was only after I had a spiritual awakening decades later that I ate any meat at all. It's like I had the revelation that everything lives, everything dies, and it is ok because death is a natural and inevitable consequence of life. Like Doppelganger my main objection to eating meat is the meat industry itself. Now generally I prefer not to eat meat, but if someone cooks me something, or wants me to cook them something with meat, I generally have no objection.

Also, my awakening came through exposure to reincarnation and Michael Newton's work. In his books he claimed that animals go to a different place. I was quite offended by that notion at first as it seems to follow the whole "animals have no souls" theme which I continue to be vehemently opposed to. I do not believe this is what he was saying though. Perhaps animals just have a different path to the ocean that is consciousness.

With regard to human experience, I think intention is the key. The stories, and the guilt (and it would seem I am not alone) that we experience, are part of a learning process. You don't blame a child for harm that they cause if they are too young to recognize and prevent that harm.
 
#9
Thanks everyone for chiming in. This thought about NDEs and animals has been popping up in my mind for a couple of weeks.

I think it is especially relevant given the horrendous conditions that most meat animals live their short miserable lives in. But also we are finding so much more evidence that animals of all types have lives that are much more in depth than anyone imagined even 50 years ago. Heard an interesting interview recently with a man who had written a book about fish and how intelligent they are.

It seems almost certain that if mankind continues to live on earth for another couple hundred years that eating animals will seem unthinkable.
 
#10
Chuck certainly comes up with some easy questions...:) . I've read scores of life reviews and I can't remember anyone being criticised for what they had for dinner or to address the question, I can't recall anyone being forced to feel the suffering of animals killed for food which is something (the suffering that is) everyone should be concerned about.

I don't see how there can be a simplistic answer like don't eat them, eat plants. Dogs have souls (I believe) and they eat meat. Pigs are just as intelligent as dogs so they must have souls and they have been known to eat us, unfortunately. Dolphins (beautiful creatures) eat fish which is meat. Bears eat anything, insects eat animals/humans and so on.

How can anyone live without harming something that lives, even if you dig the garden to plant vegetables you're going to cut worms in half and they clearly feel pain and suffering because they writhe about. Even just going for a walk in the park is bound to kill (squash) dozens of tiny creatures under giant human feet.
Are insects worthless because they look weird to us ?

The whole set up is highly unsatisfactory if you take it to it's logical conclusions and tends to lend itself better to the views of some of the "rebels" on this forum. I do believe I will know the answer one day, or at least I hope so.
 
#11
So, people who are born in the places where there nothing but animal flesh to survive on, like, say, Eskimos, or American Indians,will never get into Heaven? Hmmmm, I find it extremely unfair. Doesn't make much sense to me.
 
#12
So, people who are born in the places where there nothing but animal flesh to survive on, like, say, Eskimos, or American Indians,will never get into Heaven? Hmmmm, I find it extremely unfair. Doesn't make much sense to me.
I think it is likely more complicated than that. If we accept the evidence, lots of people are getting into "heaven", whatever that is. I've eaten plenty of animals and still do. The cultures you mention also, anecdotally, had a real reverence for the animals whose lives they needed to take.

I have no wish to turn this into an ideological argument. If that is your intention, please don't post in this thread.
 
#13
Excuse me? What the hell are you talking about what f.... "ideological argument"? I made no ideological argument whatsoever, so, snapping at me like that is a shitty and stupid thing to do. I made a valid point. I love animals and would like to be a vegetarian, I'm seriously thinking about it. I already eat meat once a month, buying it from a free range farm. Anything f.... wrong with it?? "Ideological argument"..... Where the f.... you saw an ideological argument in what I wrote is beyond me. Oh, and don't tell me where the f... to post.

I just don't think the people who live on meat out of necessity would have to pay any Karmic debt. That's all.
 
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#14
Excuse me? What the hell are you talking about what f.... "ideological argument"? I made no ideological argument whatsoever, so, snapping at me like that is a shitty and stupid thing to do. I made a valid point. I love animals and would like to be a vegetarian, I'm seriously thinking about it. I already eat meat once a month, buying it from a free range farm. Anything f.... wrong with it?? "Ideological argument"..... Where the f.... you saw an ideological argument in what I wrote is beyond me. Oh, and don't tell me where the f... to post.

I just don't think the people who live on meat out of necessity would have to pay any Karmic debt. That's all.
Ooops. Stepped in the Enrique poop trap. God forbid anyone should call you an ideologist. LOL. I never said eskimos or any other indigenous people wouldn't go to "heaven".

As I said. I'm more interested to have a nuanced discussion about the nature of animals. Obviously they are imbued with the same "soul stuff" as humans (which are also animals, of course.) What does it mean to kill to eat? Does it mean the same for us as it did for people 100 or 1000 years ago? What will be the attitude toward people who prefer to still eat the "actual" animal when synthetically produced "meat" is widely available?

I'm basically an animist, so when I have to cut down a tree for firewood I feel a real sadness. It is a loss for everyone that I have to cut down a tree in order to survive.

I don't want to have an argument. I probably over reacted. I apologize.
 
#15
Ooops. Stepped in the Enrique poop trap. God forbid anyone should call you an ideologist. LOL. I never said eskimos or any other indigenous people wouldn't go to "heaven".

As I said. I'm more interested to have a nuanced discussion about the nature of animals. Obviously they are imbued with the same "soul stuff" as humans (which are also animals, of course.) What does it mean to kill to eat? Does it mean the same for us as it did for people 100 or 1000 years ago? What will be the attitude toward people who prefer to still eat the "actual" animal when synthetically produced "meat" is widely available?

I'm basically an animist, so when I have to cut down a tree for firewood I feel a real sadness. It is a loss for everyone that I have to cut down a tree in order to survive.

I don't want to have an argument. I probably over reacted. I apologize.
It's strange, on the one hand you apologize, on the other, attack me again.... I also get sad when I see a chopped tree. I only use fallen trees for fire. And I also think about animal suffering when I eat meat. Every time it's more and more difficult for me. It's a dilemma.... I will inevitably become a vegetarian. For now, I just buy free-range meat and chicken, every time less frequently.
 
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#16
It seems to me the golden rule should apply: treat them the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their position.

I won't begrudge the worms and bugs who eat my flesh. Or if I got eaten by a lion, in the end, I wouldn't hold it against him. I might try to kill him before he could kill me, but after I'm dead? Sure, go ahead and make use of the carefully acquired and stored energy. I think if the animals we eat are at all spiritually enlightened then, in their post mortem form, they'll be understanding... as long as we treat them with respect and give them a quick clean death.
 
#18
It seems to me the golden rule should apply: treat them the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their position.

I won't begrudge the worms and bugs who eat my flesh. Or if I got eaten by a lion, in the end, I wouldn't hold it against him. I might try to kill him before he could kill me, but after I'm dead? Sure, go ahead and make use of the carefully acquired and stored energy. I think if the animals we eat are at all spiritually enlightened then, in their post mortem form, they'll be understanding... as long as we treat them with respect and give them a quick clean death.
I think if we were to treat animals as we wished to be treated then we'd all be Vegan! Let's be honest, we don't need to eat animals and we have the capacity to have reason and compassion on issues like this. Even if you give an animal a 'quick clean death' I'm sure the animal would rather still be alive. You wouldn't thank somebody for shooting you in the afterlife for it being 'quick and clean' you'd say 'dude, what did you shoot me for!?!'.
 
#19
It's strange, on the one hand you apologize, on the other, attack me again.... I also get sad when I see a chopped tree. I only use fallen trees for fire. And I also think about animal suffering when I eat meat. Every time it's more and more difficult for me. It's a dilemma.... I will inevitably become a vegetarian. For now, I just buy free-range meat and chicken, every time less frequently.
I understand how you feel, I used to eat meat but I'm Vegan now. You'll get there with your diet and if you ever need any help or advice with transitioning/recipes etc feel free to message me!
 
#20
I really do want to know the answer to this question.

I can only conclude that it is a choice, like every other aspect of our lives. Specifically I am talking of the vegetarian/vegan "option" but also of all the intentions and interactions that we have with other living beings.

When I was a young adult, I was a strict vegetarian but I did not have the understanding, experience and conscientiousness of the animals under my care that I do now. I cringe at the mistakes that I made in the care of animals entrusted to me. Strangely, it was only after I had a spiritual awakening decades later that I ate any meat at all. It's like I had the revelation that everything lives, everything dies, and it is ok because death is a natural and inevitable consequence of life. Like Doppelganger my main objection to eating meat is the meat industry itself. Now generally I prefer not to eat meat, but if someone cooks me something, or wants me to cook them something with meat, I generally have no objection.

Also, my awakening came through exposure to reincarnation and Michael Newton's work. In his books he claimed that animals go to a different place. I was quite offended by that notion at first as it seems to follow the whole "animals have no souls" theme which I continue to be vehemently opposed to. I do not believe this is what he was saying though. Perhaps animals just have a different path to the ocean that is consciousness.

With regard to human experience, I think intention is the key. The stories, and the guilt (and it would seem I am not alone) that we experience, are part of a learning process. You don't blame a child for harm that they cause if they are too young to recognize and prevent that harm.
Death is a natural and inevitable consequence of life - but why cause the death and suffering of an animal for food (or something else) when you can get by perfectly fine without?
 
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