NDE Life Review and Eating Animals

I'm not so sure about that. As someone who tortured animals I knew it was wrong. I know now it was an expression that allowed me some amount of control in a chaotic home situation. But even at the time, I knew it was wrong. How can you not? Only a psychopath wouldn't know the difference.

I don't want to pry, but I would be interested in your perspective on the above. I wasn't sure what you meant by "torture." My mind goes to the least offensive to the worst, but if you don't want to share, I understand. Sorry if I am out of line for asking.
 
I agree - but what about people who have the choice and don't need to eat animals? I also take issue with the idea of 'humane slaughter'.

You don't need Laird, I'm a Vegan ;).

You know, I realized I didn't answer this. The problem is with "choice" -- what do you mean by that? Sure, in a utopian society (you know, like Star Trek where they have replicators and Riker said our ancestors were "barbaric" for eating animals) I agree. But we don't live in that society yet. Most of the world doesn't have that choice.

If we all could afford to eat grains, vegetables and maybe tofu (if you like it, I personally do), that would be great! But you do realize that the production of these things, especially soy, comes with its own problems, including on livestock and the environment and labor exploitation? I'm not sure at this point we have a "choice" to eat what we want without hurting others and animals. Where I live, vegetables and fruit are more expensive than meat. The cheapest to eat is beans and rice, but who wants to eat that every day? And would that be good for you?

Agriculture itself is cruel, to both animals and people.

I choose not to eat meat because, at this point, I can. (I've been a vegetarian for 20 years (25 if you don't count my occasional relapses!) Also, I lost my taste for meat, and it disgusts me now. (I'm sure the disgust would go away if I were starving though!) I was vegan for three years and had some problems with it, though I do think I should incorporate more vegan meals in my diet than I have. I just wish it wasn't so damn expensive to eat this way.

You mentioned having problems with "humane slaughter." Surely you see the difference between raising animals in a feedlot that are then sent to the barbaric slaughterhouse versus an individual raising their own animals on their property with free range and either hiring someone to do the slaughter or doing it themselves if they do it correctly? (As in a quick kill without the animal suffering.)

Also, what do you think about pets or riding horses, etc? Just curious.

Thanks for the conversation!
 
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I don't want to pry, but I would be interested in your perspective on the above. I wasn't sure what you meant by "torture." My mind goes to the least offensive to the worst, but if you don't want to share, I understand. Sorry if I am out of line for asking.
I don't mind talking about it. It was many decades ago and I've made a kind of peace with living things and with myself since then. Nothing major. I was an avid bird and squirrel killer. I doubt that is uncommon in the US. I had a powerful pellet gun and for whatever reason I liked to kill things. Occasionally I went with my dad to a farm where he lived as a kind of live in "hand" when he was growing up (His parents farmed him out that way since he was big enough to do work.) and there was a boy there slightly older than me who was quite sadistic. We shot a bunch of large bullfrogs that a woman kept as pets in a decorative pool and arranged their dead bodies on lounge chairs as if they were resting. I also had a cat that I teased mercilessly. I would scare it and chase it and it was obviously quite emotionally damaged by the time I was done years later. It became incontinent and had be put outdoors and it died under one of our porches. I was probably around 12 when most of this happened. A number of forces in my life made me feel very helpless and powerless at that time. I suppose I had a lot of anger and negative energy that my family situation simply didn't allow me to express at that time. That side of things is fairly complicated personal and familial psychology. I won't go into it here.

I'm not proud of these things in fact I regret them deeply. But I've tried to make peace as deeply as possible with the souls of those poor creatures. And I've tried hard to understand why I did those things. Now when a hornet is in the house I capture it and put it outside. I try not to harm any living thing, including plants if I don't have to. But I do still eat animals. Some part of me doesn't want to eat them, but another part of me can't stop--at least right now.
 
I don't mind talking about it. It was many decades ago and I've made a kind of peace with living things and with myself since then. Nothing major. I was an avid bird and squirrel killer. I doubt that is uncommon in the US. I had a powerful pellet gun and for whatever reason I liked to kill things. Occasionally I went with my dad to a farm where he lived as a kind of live in "hand" when he was growing up (His parents farmed him out that way since he was big enough to do work.) and there was a boy there slightly older than me who was quite sadistic. We shot a bunch of large bullfrogs that a woman kept as pets in a decorative pool and arranged their dead bodies on lounge chairs as if they were resting. I also had a cat that I teased mercilessly. I would scare it and chase it and it was obviously quite emotionally damaged by the time I was done years later. It became incontinent and had be put outdoors and it died under one of our porches. I was probably around 12 when most of this happened. A number of forces in my life made me feel very helpless and powerless at that time. I suppose I had a lot of anger and negative energy that my family situation simply didn't allow me to express at that time. That side of things is fairly complicated personal and familial psychology. I won't go into it here.

I'm not proud of these things in fact I regret them deeply. But I've tried to make peace as deeply as possible with the souls of those poor creatures. And I've tried hard to understand why I did those things. Now when a hornet is in the house I capture it and put it outside. I try not to harm any living thing, including plants if I don't have to. But I do still eat animals. Some part of me doesn't want to eat them, but another part of me can't stop--at least right now.

To me, that's evidence of personal development. I suspect that's why we're here in the first place.
 
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I was probably around 12 when most of this happened.

That is why it is important that we teach compassion to our children, and why parents should keep a close eye on the way their children behave toward the animals that they come across. Without strong guidance most children do not know instinctively how to handle and relate to animals, especially when that child is emotionally stressed themselves. You were a child, not an animal torturer! As Obiwan says, your personal development has come about through your own agency.
 
I don't mind talking about it. It was many decades ago and I've made a kind of peace with living things and with myself since then. Nothing major. I was an avid bird and squirrel killer. I doubt that is uncommon in the US. I had a powerful pellet gun and for whatever reason I liked to kill things. Occasionally I went with my dad to a farm where he lived as a kind of live in "hand" when he was growing up (His parents farmed him out that way since he was big enough to do work.) and there was a boy there slightly older than me who was quite sadistic. We shot a bunch of large bullfrogs that a woman kept as pets in a decorative pool and arranged their dead bodies on lounge chairs as if they were resting. I also had a cat that I teased mercilessly. I would scare it and chase it and it was obviously quite emotionally damaged by the time I was done years later. It became incontinent and had be put outdoors and it died under one of our porches. I was probably around 12 when most of this happened. A number of forces in my life made me feel very helpless and powerless at that time. I suppose I had a lot of anger and negative energy that my family situation simply didn't allow me to express at that time. That side of things is fairly complicated personal and familial psychology. I won't go into it here.

I'm not proud of these things in fact I regret them deeply. But I've tried to make peace as deeply as possible with the souls of those poor creatures. And I've tried hard to understand why I did those things. Now when a hornet is in the house I capture it and put it outside. I try not to harm any living thing, including plants if I don't have to. But I do still eat animals. Some part of me doesn't want to eat them, but another part of me can't stop--at least right now.

Thanks for your reply. I don't think what you did was too afar of what many kids do, especially coming from the background you did. I was thinking "torture" as in what serial killers do to animals before they go on to humans, but I don't see that here, obviously. I've had my share of unhappy moments where I didn't treat animals with the dignity they deserve.

I understand you regret those actions and are trying to make peace. We have all done stuff like this and regretted it. However, I would still kill a hornet or wasp or bee in my house because I have a huge phobia about them! I don't kill the spiders though. In fact, I let them live in my house until I have to have company, then I regretfully tear down their webs and capture and put them outside. I have a ton of webs and spiders in my house right now -- they are very helpful catching flies, fleas, mosquitos, and other insects. But I suppose others would find that "nasty." My son calls him his "spider pets."
 
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You know, I realized I didn't answer this. The problem is with "choice" -- what do you mean by that? Sure, in a utopian society (you know, like Star Trek where they have replicators and Riker said our ancestors were "barbaric" for eating animals) I agree. But we don't live in that society yet. Most of the world doesn't have that choice.

If we all could afford to eat grains, vegetables and maybe tofu (if you like it, I personally do), that would be great! But you do realize that the production of these things, especially soy, comes with its own problems, including on livestock and the environment and labor exploitation? I'm not sure at this point we have a "choice" to eat what we want without hurting others and animals. Where I live, vegetables and fruit are more expensive than meat. The cheapest to eat is beans and rice, but who wants to eat that every day? And would that be good for you?

Agriculture itself is cruel, to both animals and people.

I choose not to eat meat because, at this point, I can. (I've been a vegetarian for 20 years (25 if you don't count my occasional relapses!) Also, I lost my taste for meat, and it disgusts me now. (I'm sure the disgust would go away if I were starving though!) I was vegan for three years and had some problems with it, though I do think I should incorporate more vegan meals in my diet than I have. I just wish it wasn't so damn expensive to eat this way.

You mentioned having problems with "humane slaughter." Surely you see the difference between raising animals in a feedlot that are then sent to the barbaric slaughterhouse versus an individual raising their own animals on their property with free range and either hiring someone to do the slaughter or doing it themselves if they do it correctly? (As in a quick kill without the animal suffering.)

Also, what do you think about pets or riding horses, etc? Just curious.

Thanks for the conversation!

With the choice comment I just mean people who can decide what kind of diet to eat and aren't limited economically or to certain foods locally. This basically applies to anybody who lives in western countries and some others as well. A decent amount of the world has that choice and I personally believe we should all make the right choice and not eat animals -as in those who can make that choice.


Well I mean, eating Vegan and Vegetarian is generally cheaper! Meat is expensive, I'm off to India next year, a country full of vegetarians, many because they can't afford meat, others for religious/spiritual reasons. Where do you live where meat is cheaper? That's crazy, in the majority of places it's cheaper to eat a vegetarian/vegan diet. There is problems with the production of grains and soya that's true, but the vast majority of it goes to feeding livestock. No diet is perfect but on pretty much every measure, a vegan diet is the least harmful and uses less resources.

I agree that there is a difference between a factory farm and someone raising an animal themselves, and between a quick death and a long drawn out one. It's just not 'humane' - killing a living being against its will cannot be considered humane, it's not possible. If someone treated humans, or even dogs in this way, most people would be absolutely appalled and outraged. We have to do a lot of mental gymnastics and have to undergo extreme conditioning to eat the diets we do. We don't naturally place dogs as 'pets' and pigs as 'food' from birth - that view is forced on us and relentlessly drilled into us from the day we are born. We would not have the conversation between a quick death and drawn out one about dogs or cats for food, however if we are talking about Euthenasia then that's a separate conversation!

Pets have a lot of issues that are swept under the carpet, for example too many pets are bred for the supply, so they are kept in pens and many are killed. If people rescue animals - great, but we should stop breeding them. Horse riding I'm against, especially as a sport, because they kill them if they get hurt, and because you have to do things to convince such a powerful animal to let you ride it as well. Also why should we get to sit on a horses back? It's not okay, animals do not exist for our use, they deserve better then that, they deserve to be free.

My attitude to life and to my Vegan lifestyle (and my political and other beliefs) boils down to empathy, if I wouldn't want to be treated in a certain way, then I cannot do it to others. I have a lot of progress to do on this front though, the phone I'm typing on now for example has a lot of issues.

Thanks to you too - I look forward to your reply :).
 
"the phone I'm typing on now for example has a lot of issues"
- maybe it needs to see a therapist.
 
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Are there any NDE life reviews where people have to feel the suffering of all the animals that they ate during their lifetime? It would seem odd if the life review only included effects that we may have had on other humans.

Excellent, excellent question. Indeed one of the most thought provoking questions/comments I've read on this forum personally speaking.

I'm sure there are many narrative twists and turns to contextualise & make sense of this question from within whichever particular mind-set, belief or ideology one is coming from.

For me personally - having read hundreds if not thousands of accounts of NDEs and related others, as well as having experienced them myself - the question, if unpacked fully & with in-depth knowledge & understanding of these kinds of experiences, reveals something.

And that "something" isn't about the nature of souls or what literally happens "after death" or if animals have "souls" or what not.

It reveals how deeply & intimately connected the entire phenomena of NDEs and related ASCs are with subtly/subconsciously held a priori beliefs & expectations, rather than some objective mechanics for an "afterlife".

Indeed, the entire range of the phenomena itself is showing us this with a glowing neon sign. Most people just don't notice it because they haven't deeply enough considered all the implications of the experiences, or they are unaware of conflicting data points etc

Imo. Mileage may vary ;)
 
Are there any NDE life reviews where people have to feel the suffering of all the animals that they ate during their lifetime? It would seem odd if the life review only included effects that we may have had on other humans

My opinion on this is that I think that this is unlikely to be brought forward during a life review as there is no particular intent by the subject to cause pain or hurt, many people feel guilty eating meat, of course.

I think intent is a big driver.
 
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My opinion on this is that I think that this is unlikely to be brought forward during a life review as there is no particular intent by the subject to cause pain or hurt, many people feel guilty eating meat, of course.

I think intent is a big driver.
Generally I sympathise with this view.

However - I'm sure I came across at least one account of a life review where the person was shown the consequences of their actions, including unintentional harm caused. Of course if this was a judgement in a court, intention would be very important. But the life review isn't really a 'judgement' at all, it is more a look at what has happened, usually from multiple perspectives.
 
But Manjit, don't you think that there is ample evidence to suggest that the afterlife experience itself is

Hi FFH. Sorry, not sure how to interpret this comment, it can be read in several ways. For example, it appears to simply be a re-statement of what I wrote so not really a question?!

Let me try re-stating what I meant; I personally believe it is wise to parse the difference between narrative appearances & actual "reality".

I have found that the experience or mind-space within which NDEs occur has the potential to throw up infinite theological & comsological narratives.

The vast majority, imo, deal with those narrative interpretations of ASCs as if they are literal, rational "objective" truths. It is very rare in pop-circles to utilise a meta-approach to understanding these experiences and narratives, with most people instead taking the narratives themselves at face value. A rookie mistake imo ;) It is very understandable though - the sheer magnificence, awe, beauty, exhilaration, hyper-reality etc etc of these experiences can make them very compelling indeed.

In my understanding and experience this is due to either a lack of a) personal, in-depth & repeated experiences alongside b) a lack of knowledge of a broad range of data.

These are very difficult concepts to discuss, and due to time-constraints alongside no personal motivation to convince, argue or debate these topics, whilst understanding some people can get quite upset when their beliefs in such areas are challenged, I should probably back out of the discussion here!

Cheers for the excellent question....I hadn't actually considered it myself....but then, I had realised the illusory nature of the narratives from NDEs many years ago, I'm not looking for more evidence to support it!
 
Generally I sympathise with this view.

However - I'm sure I came across at least one account of a life review where the person was shown the consequences of their actions, including unintentional harm caused. Of course if this was a judgement in a court, intention would be very important. But the life review isn't really a 'judgement' at all, it is more a look at what has happened, usually from multiple perspectives.


Indeed so Typoz / Steve! There are many, many conflicting theological & cosmological narratives thrown up here, often entirely contradictory to each other.

I could easily write up a long post with numerous examples of people being shown the "consequences" of harmful action, intentional or not, and against animals too.

Let's face it, the narratives of NDEs and ASCs actually reveals nothing about the "after death state" other than what we, as humans, think about it "subconsciously".......
 
I quite love it when my beliefs are challenged, so I would ask that you don't bow out just yet.

<blush>I don't know what an ASC is.</blush>

As I've already said numerous times, I view the NDE strictly as transition. A landing process. The plane ride, not the destination.

My point was that if we take into account a lot of the OBE or channelled narratives (with the requisite grain of salt. And of course considering the fact that the accounts are filtered through a physically embodied consciousness) we can piece together a picture of the afterlife that is also "deeply & intimately connected with subtly/subconsciously held a priori beliefs & expectations." I'm not talking as much about the NDE as the afterlife experience itself. I'm thinking of the idea that most "folks" may settle into "areas" that roughly correspond to their "gestalt" as it were. Or do you disregard that idea entirely?
 
My opinion on this is that I think that this is unlikely to be brought forward during a life review as there is no particular intent by the subject to cause pain or hurt, many people feel guilty eating meat, of course.

I think intent is a big driver.

Yet we hear of NDE's where a person is shown the intended consequences of a thoughtless action. If one's intent was not to hurt, then why would some people be shown consequences in human casualties and not animals.

And, if intent is known i.e., if people know that eating meat is "bad" and it can be avoided, would this not be central to many NDEs?
 
And, if intent is known i.e., if people know that eating meat is "bad" and it can be avoided, would this not be central to many NDEs?

People may not know anything, intent is very often not known. They may have intuitions or bad/good feelings about things but not enough knowledge to form an intent. Your case might be valid if there were many examples of NDErs that have had that experience, but so far Typoz only has one, and Manjit says that he knows of many. I've read a lot of NDE reports and can't remember seeing any, so it's hardly a common occurrence to mention animals, whether thoughtless or otherwise.
 
For clarity, I was referring to unintentional harm, not unintentional harm to animals. I don't have any figure for the latter. On the first category I was suitably vague - as soon as I came across an example I just made a mental note that such a phenomenon was reported. I made no attempt to maintain a running total of any subsequent example(s).
 
This is interesting, possible synchronicity. In this BATGAP interview, David talks about eating meat, and being able to sense the energy of the animal etc.
Around 52mins in, interesting interview.

 
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This is interesting, possible synchronicity. In this BATGAP interview, David talks about eating meat, and being able to sense the energy of the animal etc.
Around 52mins in, interesting interview.


Thank you for posting that Steve, I still have a lot more to listen to, but I have watched the part that you drew our attention to and more. I can relate so strongly with what says about a general feeling of "do no harm."

As far as the vegetarian/vegan option I don't think he was giving the full picture, but the groundwork that he outlined is something I can understand.

From age 15 to 43 I was vegetarian, with an attempt at veganism in there somewhere. I found it difficult to give up milk in my tea - soy milk just is not the same. But really, it is what we can manage emotionally, politically, but mainly personally. My partner and I raised our kids as vegetarian (on my asking) but my partner was not a vegetarian. We recognized that we were still making a choice for them, so as soon as they were able to make a choice they made it - they both chose to eat meat from 3 years old until early teenhood. Then at 15 (ironically) my daughter became a vegan, partly conscience and health, partly eating disorder. It worries me everyday.

I used to think that being a vegetarian was the most obvious of primary moral choices. I think it is a very important action to consider, and I'm sure the world world would be a better place without factory farming. But why create man to have such a bodily dependence on meat? It is in some ways wretched that man is an omnivore. There is nothing definitive to be found in biology! It really is a choice for some, but not for all, and humans have been eating meat since the dawn of the ages. If vegetarianism part of our future, then why are the most spiritual people that I know not vegetarian? No matter what, recognizing and respecting any animal that a is consumed is important. But is it enough? I don't know. But thanks (all) for starting a conversation about it.
 
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