NDErs who witness events in other rooms....

Discussion in 'Critical Discussions Among Proponents and Skeptics' started by Anonymou5, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. Anonymou5

    Anonymou5 New

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    179
    Hi, I am a new poster here, but have been following Alex's work for a bit now. I have been reading a lot about NDE's lately and keep coming across one claim that I have yet to see substantiated.

    Now, for the record I don't consider myself a believer or a skeptic/debunker. Yes, I am skeptical, but only in the sense that I don't want to be fooled. If there is reliable evidence for something then I will accept it, and incorporate it into what I understand about reality. I just wanted to clarify this because as an outsider lurking around this forum I often notice that "skeptics" on this site are borderline trolls, so I really don't wanna be mistaken for one.

    With that being said, the claim that I see getting thrown around all the time, but I have yet to see substantiated is this; That during NDE's people witness events that are occurring in different rooms/physical locations.

    Obviously when I read someone making that claim I think "Wow that's pretty amazing", but subsequently am let down when they provide nothing to back that up.

    I think that if that claim can be substantiated that would more than prove that NDE/OBE's are real experiences, and not some sort of trick of the brain.

    So can anyone provide any resources, videos, links, etc. that can provide some way to verify this claim.

    Thank you!
     
  2. gabriel

    gabriel New

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,644
    It depends what you mean by proven. If you're suggesting by the usually accepted weight of evidence, then yes, non-local perception is proven. However the implications for material existence are so great that a higher standard is placed upon such a claim, the scientific notion of repeatability. Such cases are still too unusual to meet such claims, and there's considerable resistance to them as legitimate phenomena.
     
    tim and K9! like this.
  3. Anonymou5

    Anonymou5 New

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    179
    Thanks for your reply, but this doesn't address my OP.

    I'm not arguing that something has been proven. I'm asking for resources for an often made claim, which I have yet to find any real evidence for.
     
  4. Kai

    Kai New

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,546
    What do you mean by "resources for an often made claim" though, anonymous? The claim is often made in published books, or in NDE anecdotes available at NDERF and other online sources that should not be difficult to find. None of these anecdotes are demonstrated. A large study called the AWARE study (Sam Parnia) is currently underway with, in essence, one of its aims being to discern whether such anecdotes are actually true.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  5. gabriel

    gabriel New

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,644
    It's difficult to know whether this is one of those threads which ask for escalating values of what denotes evidence, but if by 'resources' you mean sources, I'd point at the Lloyd Rudi case, the sports shoe on the roof case and the Pam Reynolds case, all of which involve medical workers in some capacity, and details of which are easily Googled. Attempts at debunking centre round the possibility of environmental leakage or residual brain function, but such possibilities would not be entertained IMO, if the cases were legal rather than paradigm changing, as each would be regarded as having an expert witness. Also bear in mind these are far from the only cases with similar characteristics.
     
    K9! and tim like this.
  6. billw

    billw New

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    791
  7. radicalpolitik

    radicalpolitik New

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2014
    Messages:
    737
    Hasn't Parnia recently said that they have a verified case? Not with targets, but with an event itself.
     
    tim likes this.
  8. gabriel

    gabriel New

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,644
    There's also Penny Sartori's 'Patient 10' case.
     
  9. billw

    billw New

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    791
    Lusikka likes this.
  10. tim

    tim New

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,396
    Good point, I think the sceptics would be surprised how many medical professionals "know" this is going on but can't speak about it too much for obvious reasons. And then there are the medical professionals that speak out and ARE ridiculed. I know for a fact that Spetzler thinks jack shit of the sceptical explanations for the Reynolds case. I emailed Keith Augustine the other day and told him what Dr Spetzler told me.

    Keith, bless his sceptical socks said he didn't put much weight in scenarios of " which doctor said what" kind of thing. Amusing :) considering this was Spetzler himself and his assistant Dr Karl Greene.

    This paper below has some good verdical OBE's but remember, there all JUST ANOTHER ANECDOTE and even when the head of the Aware study says that he has one under controlled conditions, Arouet thinks that he'll be able to find a flaw somewhere.

    http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearch/pdf_docs/12.3_cook_greyson_stevenson.pdf
     
  11. Anonymou5

    Anonymou5 New

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    179
    What I mean is that I often find people making this claim as an argument for the validity of NDE's. For example;
    "First and most importantly, there are many well documented cases where the NDEer while out of body were able to see specific details and hear conversations in other rooms and far away places that they couldn’t have known about beforehand, and yet upon returning to the body find that what they saw or heard was in fact verified to be accurate and true."

    I see that claim being made a lot during my research. What I am looking for is the "well documented" part. Where are these documents?

    I've been through the NDERF website, and I am collecting anecdotes which I plan on contacting Dr. Long for more information.

    However the problem that I have with the NDERF website is that first anyone can submit an NDE, and secondly even if an NDE'r claims to have seen such and such occur in another room, we can't just take them at their word.

    For example take the case of Viola Horton;


    Those are some pretty amazing claims, but why didn't Raymond Moody interview the brother-in-law, or at the very least the husband and daughter, to corroborate this story? Both Viola and her husband have now passed away, and presumably the brother-in-law might be too. If this account were true, Raymond Moody missed a golden opportunity to provide one of the greatest documented cases of verified out of body perception. For now, all we have is Viola's word. Which for some of us just isn't enough.

    So to sum up, what I mean by resources is simply well documented corroborated sources.

    Don't be so paranoid man, I'm just asking for help in research. I'm not here trying to peddle the bs argument that we need to move the goal post every time something doesn't jive well with our paradigms.

    But there, you just did it again, you said: "Also bear in mind these are far from the only cases with similar characteristics."

    Thats what I'm talking about in my OP. Where are these cases that everyone keeps talking about?

    Like I said, I'm not a debunker. My thinking towards this is that of any other claim. For example if a woman claims she was raped by a certain person, we don't just say "Well she said it, so it must be true boys, lock him up and throw away the key!". No we do what we can to verify the claim.

    That's all I'm asking for, verification.
     
    Lusikka likes this.
  12. tim

    tim New

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,396
  13. tim

    tim New

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,396
    Where are these cases that everyone keeps talking about?

    Contact Janis Holden at IANDS she has compiled a list of nearly a hundred.

    The most famous cases are... off the top o my head :

    Maria's shoe, Pam Reynolds, Denture man, Al Sullivan, Lloyd Rudy case, but there are many more and I can't remember just at the moment
     
  14. Anonymou5

    Anonymou5 New

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    179
    Interesting, links?
     
  15. tim

    tim New

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,396
    Are you the guy off Penny Sartori's amazon review ?
     
  16. Anonymou5

    Anonymou5 New

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    179
    Thank you for the link!

    I have to give a lot of credit to Dr. Greyson for being quite a researcher. He really understands the importance of corroboration.

    I was very impressed with the Al Sullivan case, and how Greyson handled it. We need more researcher like Dr. Greyson.
     
  17. Anonymou5

    Anonymou5 New

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    179
    What are you talking about?

    Why is it that people are automatically getting so defensive simply because I'm asking for verification of claims? I'm not trying to debunk anything.

    For the record I have talked with Penny Sartori in an effort to find more corroboration, and she understood the importance of verification as much as I did.
     
  18. tim

    tim New

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    2,396
    I'm just asking my friend, you have the same moniker or roughly the same. I'm not being defensive, I'm trying to help you, chill out.
     
  19. Tap2

    Tap2 New

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    About 20 mins in, decent verified case

     
    K9! and tim like this.
  20. gabriel

    gabriel New

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,644
    Not so much paranoid as jaded. There is no reason to accept every case at face value, which is not to say none are valuable. Things that set off alarm bells include, does the testimony fit the general perception of NDEs, does the person have anything to gain professionally or socially by giving their account, is there a clear religious agenda being played out, does the person sound like a flake or a hoaxer. These things may sound subjective, but it's fairly easy to spot people who've latched onto the NDE meme, or are not playing with a full deck.

    Verifying claims is important, but sometimes we have to accept the conditions under which the account is collected does not lend itself to third party verification. That doesn't mean the person is lying until proven otherwise.
     
    K9! and tim like this.

Share This Page