NDErs who witness events in other rooms....

I don't think that's necessary at this point.

For example, I have accompanied my dad to various of his operations for a shoulder injury he had. I have had the experience of having to wait long hours in the waiting room, or some family room while my dad was in surgery. Usually my mother was with me as well. When you're waiting hours you do many things to get your mind off the surgery, and how much time you have to wait. A lot of very unique events and conversations happened during those times when we were waiting for my dad to finish up in surgery.

He was never near death or anything, I'm just using it to illustrate the point that if my dad would have had one of these experiences and came back and told me that he saw one of these unique events, I wouldn't turn around and say "Oh yea, let's see you do that again under lab conditions!".



What makes you so sure Moody interviewed the brother in law? I haven't seen anything suggestive of it. I could care less about the skeptics, and their point of views on this stuff any more than I could care about some right wing biblical nut bag's opinion on homosexuality. Their mind is already made up, they're not looking at this stuff to see if something new can be discovered.

I do have to say that although it would appear that Viola had no motive to make it up at face value, you can never underestimate some people's desire to simply be noticed. That is why having a witness corroboration is important, because even if they are just doing it for attention, at least we know it's not some made up story. If it checks out, then they can have all the attention they ever want. They'd be entitled to that.

I found something on the net which was a testimony from Viola herself and lots of interesting additions to the case. I saved it to favourites last year but my computer crashed for good and I lost everything. I'll see if I can find it and post some other bits tomorrow
 
Here is a case that I wish we could somehow get verification on. It's a claim being made on a forum, so for starters we would need to know if it's even true, and secondly verify it with the mother. Since the son is already corroborating the accuracy of it, I think it would be strong enough.

I found this on catholic answers.

Anybody have any idea how we could go about even attempting to verify this? I don't have a CA account to post on there, and that thread has been locked (typical CA lol).

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I found something on the net which was a testimony from Viola herself and lots of interesting additions to the case. I saved it to favourites last year but my computer crashed for good and I lost everything. I'll see if I can find it and post some other bits tomorrow

I've seen a few videos of Viola giving her testimony. I really think it needs third party verification, especially from her brother-in-law. Based on my research, Viola passed away around 1997, and her husband Jud passed away around 2003 (i think I don't remember off the top of my head). Her brother-in-law may or may not still be alive, and her daughter Kathy may or may not still be alive.

I really hope Raymond Moody did interview the brother-in-law and made some sort of record of it, if not I would honestly consider that a huge failure.
 
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23066 It seems we are being watched LOL.
.................................................................................
Couldn't find the information yet, but here is her full testimony

.....................................................................................................................
And I had not responded to treatment I was getting worse and the doctor had come to see and at this point he says “I’ve lost her she’s gone” and I thought “Well who’s he talking about?” but just before this I had been in terrible pain I was just hurting so bad I wanted to get away from it and there was this slight buzzing at the ear and I felt myself pop out of the body I don’t know how I came out I was just suddenly out of the body and as I sat down on the head of the bed a minute to look around then I felt myself float up to the ceiling and I was looking down and he said “She’s gone” and I couldn’t believe it and I thought “Who’s Gone?” and I was trying to look down to see and I felt presences with me guardian angels is what they were but I call them guides.As I come out I’m in no pain but I’m also just free of everything. I’m no one’s wife. mother, or daughter I am just myself alone and all of a sudden I’m aware of people out in the hall. The room had been sealed off because he was going to do surgery in the room So I immediately went out through the door did I not open just went out I was immediately on the side in the hall but and go up to my daughter and I try to make her hear me “Kathy go home and change your clothes.” I couldn’t make her hear me so I went to her dad and I said “Jud take Kathy home change her clothes she shouldn’t be out like this.”
While they were in the hall I was trying to send them home. A brother of my husband’s came up and he was talking to him and gotten word to come and one of his neighbors was also in the hospital and he came up and started talking to my brother-in-law wanting to know what he was doing at the hospital and what he was going to do that weekend. He said “Well it looks like my sister-in-law is going to kick the bucket and I was planning to go to Athens but I’ll stick around now to be a pallbearer” Later I was also able to talk to him. He didn’t want to admit it but he did admit this is what he had said and I laughed at him because it embarrassed him.

This time I’m thinking I want to see my sister so I immediately find myself in Rockville, Maryland at her home and she’s getting ready to go grocery shopping and she’s wearing a beige suit with green blouse. She had to look through the house to find her keys that she had misplaced. Had to find her grocery list and finally she walks out the front door to get into her blue Monte Carlo Chevrolet and I feel that there’s no need for me to go to the grocery store with her so I let her go on and I’m gonna pop on over onto another sister who lives a few miles away from her and this other sister had already left town I was able to determine she had gone grocery shopping herself so the guides asked me “Was I ready to leave this area now?” and I agreed and said “Yes” About two weeks after I had this near-death experience I was in contact with my sisters and I brought this fact up to her and described and she said “Well How did you know? I didn’t see you you weren’t here.”

I don’t know exactly how I entered the tunnel just at one point but it was when the guides had asked me and I said yes and i feel myself going in an upward motion. The tunnel is
not to be big just room for one person to go one at a time. It doesn’t touch you or I didn’t reach out and touch the walls but it’s black and I feel myself going up and looking at light, bright light at the end of the tunnel and the next as I’m going along I see the grey area but I did not stop to go in and see just what was going on I went home to come out into this beautiful pasture Valley land flowers bright beautiful light brilliant color nothing here is like it at all. and I’d lost a girlfriend in the polio epidemic in the thirties. I think it was 38 but I’m not positive of that date and she assured me that everything was fine and she was happy and I also saw my grandparents’ coming to meet me I had never known my grandfather’s they had both passed away before I was born but I did know my grandmother’s and my mother also an and I’m there this baby appears to me and he says “Hi I’m your brother” and I said “I don’t have a brother!” and we don’t talk as I’m talking to you there was no way of misunderstanding it was more like it was mental telepathy and he shows himself to me as a small infant dressed in a cap and a little long dress with a knitted sack on it, booties, and socks and tells me “Look me over now and remember how I looked this way and you can tell our father when you get back and he’ll tell you what happened.” and when I was able to talk to him my dad said “I don’t know how you know that because nobody but your mother and the doctor and I knew about these things”

This is the most wonderful part of it. This is a warm loving light its the most masculine but it also has overtones of mother love, sisterly love. This just pulsates around He has totally accepting me and forgiven me for everything I’ve ever done but can I forgive myself some of the selfish things I have done. With the light there is this panoramic view of my life it starts with birth,it continues right on to where we are at this point all at the same time I am part of the view as well as watching it I am actually doing these things. I guess it’s a speeded-up version of a camera that just runs double time or something but I actually had the feelings of what was going on as I saw it and also standing off to the side and being able to look around and look at the different things that went on at different times of my life and I’m told then “Are you ready to go back?” I said “No I wanna go onto city of light”! “No don’t you wanna go back?” and I could hear my daughter and looked back and see her and my husband they were saying ” Viola don’t go! Come back to us! Momma I need you! Mom come back!” and they asked me again “Are you ready to go back?” and I said “No, but it seems that my daughter needs me so I must go back”

They also want to know about hell is it a fiery burning place? Well, what I found to be hell was separation from God this is a total hell. It had a lot of effects and change in my
life. It’s made me a more understanding person of others I know I don’t have the right to take my life i didn’t want to return and I would love to go back. Someday I will and then I hopefully can
stay and not have to come back and try again but I know I cannot take my life and go there things would not work out right but I think I’m a better person about watching for the needs of others and
not being always selfish. Oh I’m still selfish I’m still a human but it has changed my way of thinking..

 
We are already out of the anecdote tipping point...

Yeah, I personally agree with that Tim, I'm convinced because of my own experience's. I'd probably be more resistant if I hadn't had them, but I'm content that my own unique OBE experience requires a radical new explanation.

There are so many strange subjective experiences, whether they are NDE OBE's or otherwise, such as Carl Jung's famous time-slip related in his autobiography. They pop up from time to time, and get little to no exposure. I find them absolutely fascinating, like this one I stumbled across some time ago within the comments section on Skeptoid: http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4296


"In about summer 1986 I was on Southsea beach, Portsmouth, and looking out towards the Idle of Wight - about two miles away - I could see and hear two old sailing ships - 'men-o-war' - shooting cannon at one another. I can remember thinking it strange, that no one else on the beach was looking at it - people are always looking at the ships out to sea in Portsmouth.
I told people for ages afterwards and looked in the local paper - it has ALL local ship movements - and checked to see if anything was being filmed out at sea.
Never found anything to confirm it actually happened and I don't believe in ghosts !!!
I just think the mind plays tricks at times. Quite weird though.

Mr C, Portsmouth, England
July 16, 2012 2:16pm"
 
Timeslips are a fascinating subject, I have a book with a chapter dedicated to them. One example concerned someone who had gone on holiday in the Dieppe area a few years after the war ended. They heard what appeared to be a re-enactment of the calamitous raid of 1942, with machine gun fire and the cries of the wounded and dying played out intermittently over some hours. A more mundane version was someone who saw the Liverpool shopping street they were in transform to the way it was many years before.

Another case concerned two young men camping in a remote part of the Scottish Highlands. They awoke early to see the bedraggled remains of a defeated Scots army pass below them. Ghosts or timeslip, and is there any difference? As my library is presently in storage I can't provide exact details.
 

LMAO, that Shen1986 guy is one of the dumbest debunkers I've ever come across. The bulk of his debunking is him asking his wife for her opinion, and then he subsequently yells "oooh we debunked this one guys!".

Just look at the first thing he says about Viola'; "Why is she thinking about clothes when she is dead?? Strange.."
Do you even logic bro?

My favorite of his attempts to debunk an NDE was the Jerry Baldwin NDE. He declares it a successful victory after he discovers that NPR had Jerry Baldwin as a call in guest, because as Shen1986 claimed; this made him a celebrity! Case closed folks.

As far as the Raymond Moody only interviewing Viola, I so far haven't found any other record that indicates that he interviewed anybody else. Someone needs to contact Raymond Moody and ask him about it. I've tried contacting Peter Shockey, who made the "Life After Life" documentary, but didn't receive any response. Peter Shockey claims that he and Viola's family became very good friends and kept in touch throughout the years.

"Over the next several years, my wife and I kept in touch with Viola and her husband, Jud, and they became like family. Upon hearing about the birth of our firstborn daughter, Viola sent us a beautiful baby-quilt lovingly crafted by her grandmotherly hands." - Peter Shockey, Reflections of Heaven Pg 20

So I figure if anyone had any more information about whether this was corroborated by another family member, it would be Shockey. This implies that at least Jud her husband corroborated it, unless for those several years Jud was ignorant as to why He and Viola were friends with this documentary filmmaker.
 
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Yeah, I personally agree with that Tim, I'm convinced because of my own experience's. I'd probably be more resistant if I hadn't had them, but I'm content that my own unique OBE experience requires a radical new explanation.

There are so many strange subjective experiences, whether they are NDE OBE's or otherwise, such as Carl Jung's famous time-slip related in his autobiography. They pop up from time to time, and get little to no exposure. I find them absolutely fascinating, like this one I stumbled across some time ago within the comments section on Skeptoid: http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4296


"In about summer 1986 I was on Southsea beach, Portsmouth, and looking out towards the Idle of Wight - about two miles away - I could see and hear two old sailing ships - 'men-o-war' - shooting cannon at one another. I can remember thinking it strange, that no one else on the beach was looking at it - people are always looking at the ships out to sea in Portsmouth.
I told people for ages afterwards and looked in the local paper - it has ALL local ship movements - and checked to see if anything was being filmed out at sea.
Never found anything to confirm it actually happened and I don't believe in ghosts !!!
I just think the mind plays tricks at times. Quite weird though.

Mr C, Portsmouth, England
July 16, 2012 2:16pm"

Hey Max, I'm glad that you posted on this thread. I've actually come across your story a few times while doing research on verified OBE's. I think I first saw it on Penny Sartori's blog in the comment section.

Is there anyway you could get your father or brothers to corroborate this story for you? I know at first that may seem rude to ask. I hope you can understand that it would go a long way in providing solid evidence that these experiences really do happen as the experiencers claim.
 
Hey Max, I'm glad that you posted on this thread. I've actually come across your story a few times while doing research on verified OBE's. I think I first saw it on Penny Sartori's blog in the comment section.

What an interesting synchronicity. I was just googling OBEs and not 5 minutes ago read that very discussion on Penny Sartori's blog.
 
Anyone know why there hasn't been more attention given to the two verified Parnia cases? Or have they been "debunked" because they weren't in controlled environments?

I find them both fascinating, particularly the one where the patient read the Dr's thoughts...
 
Yeah, I personally agree with that Tim, I'm convinced because of my own experience's. I'd probably be more resistant if I hadn't had them, but I'm content that my own unique OBE experience requires a radical new explanation.

There are so many strange subjective experiences, whether they are NDE OBE's or otherwise, such as Carl Jung's famous time-slip related in his autobiography. They pop up from time to time, and get little to no exposure. I find them absolutely fascinating, like this one I stumbled across some time ago within the comments section on Skeptoid: http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4296


"In about summer 1986 I was on Southsea beach, Portsmouth, and looking out towards the Idle of Wight - about two miles away - I could see and hear two old sailing ships - 'men-o-war' - shooting cannon at one another. I can remember thinking it strange, that no one else on the beach was looking at it - people are always looking at the ships out to sea in Portsmouth.
I told people for ages afterwards and looked in the local paper - it has ALL local ship movements - and checked to see if anything was being filmed out at sea.
Never found anything to confirm it actually happened and I don't believe in ghosts !!!
I just think the mind plays tricks at times. Quite weird though.

Mr C, Portsmouth, England
July 16, 2012 2:16pm"
I agree they are fascinating, Max. But they are very difficult to bring in to scientific debate at mainstream level as were NDE's thirty five years ago. The Jung recollection was witnessed by his companion secretary I believe, they both saw what did not in fact exist...if they weren't lying of course :-)
Your remote viewing experience or "fields experience" or however you prefer to categorize it is not common but Jung again describes one in his auto-biography.
 
It's difficult to know whether this is one of those threads which ask for escalating values of what denotes evidence, but if by 'resources' you mean sources, I'd point at the Lloyd Rudi case, the sports shoe on the roof case and the Pam Reynolds case, all of which involve medical workers in some capacity, and details of which are easily Googled. Attempts at debunking centre round the possibility of environmental leakage or residual brain function, but such possibilities would not be entertained IMO, if the cases were legal rather than paradigm changing, as each would be regarded as having an expert witness. Also bear in mind these are far from the only cases with similar characteristics.
Right, but don't we all agree that legal methodology and scientific methodology are two different things? Among other issues, the legal system has the requirement to make a decision now. Science does not.

~~ Paul
 
LMAO, that Shen1986 guy is one of the dumbest debunkers I've ever come across. The bulk of his debunking is him asking his wife for her opinion, and then he subsequently yells "oooh we debunked this one guys!".

Just look at the first thing he says about Viola'; "Why is she thinking about clothes when she is dead?? Strange.."
Do you even logic bro?

My favorite of his attempts to debunk an NDE was the Jerry Baldwin NDE. He declares it a successful victory after he discovers that NPR had Jerry Baldwin as a call in guest, because as Shen1986 claimed; this made him a celebrity! Case closed folks.

As far as the Raymond Moody only interviewing Viola, I so far haven't found any other record that indicates that he interviewed anybody else. Someone needs to contact Raymond Moody and ask him about it. I've tried contacting Peter Shockey, who made the "Life After Life" documentary, but didn't receive any response. Peter Shockey claims that he and Viola's family became very good friends and kept in touch throughout the years.

"Over the next several years, my wife and I kept in touch with Viola and her husband, Jud, and they became like family. Upon hearing about the birth of our firstborn daughter, Viola sent us a beautiful baby-quilt lovingly crafted by her grandmotherly hands." - Peter Shockey, Reflections of Heaven Pg 20

So I figure if anyone had any more information about whether this was corroborated by another family member, it would be Shockey. This implies that at least Jud her husband corroborated it, unless for those several years Jud was ignorant as to why He and Viola were friends with this documentary filmmaker.
"that Shen1986 guy is one of the dumbest debunkers I've ever come across. The bulk of his debunking is him asking his wife for her opinion, and then he subsequently yells "oooh we debunked this one guys!"."

That's amusing, Anonymou5 ;-)

I read about the Jerry Baldwin case. He saw the back up ambulance outside (after the first defibrillator had shorted out) and who was driving it from an unconscious position in his front room etc.

I'm nearly certain that the brother in law was interveiwed about the case. I've got so many books on the subject that I don't know where to start looking.

Have you seen this interview with Vi Horton on the Phil Donahue show . Scroll down to find it

http://ndeinfo.wmthost.com/
 
No scientist worth the name would simply *ignore* prima facie evidence that was persistent.

On the other hand, no scientist worth the name would mistake prima facie evidence for confirmed data in a controlled environment. So for example, it's not enough to have a set of tales from "really reliable people" that they saw a living T rex in an Amazon forest. No scienitst would, could, or should conclude that living T rex exist on that basis.
 
Anyone know why there hasn't been more attention given to the two verified Parnia cases? Or have they been "debunked" because they weren't in controlled environments?

I find them both fascinating, particularly the one where the patient read the Dr's thoughts...

The case where the patient read the doctor's thoughts was only a recollection from Tom Aufderheide so obviously that is only an interesting anecdote. And if the other is the Mike Mansfield case then the same applies. Neither were in the study. Personally I don't doubt either of course because I don't see why two doctors would make up something like that
 
No scientist worth the name would simply *ignore* prima facie evidence that was persistent.

On the other hand, no scientist worth the name would mistake prima facie evidence for confirmed data in a controlled environment. So for example, it's not enough to have a set of tales from "really reliable people" that they saw a living T rex in an Amazon forest. No scienitst would, could, or should conclude that living T rex exist on that basis.
Right. And for cases where a controlled environment is difficult or impossible, you do the next best thing. Like Stevenson did when studying the persistent reports of past life memories--cross interview as many witnesses as possible, check official government records, compare birth defects and scars to medical records of the presumed past life identity, employ polygraph tests, etc. While this does not prove reincarnation, it has led the researchers to conclude based on the evidence that reincarnation is the "best possible explanation" at least in the best couple hundred cases.

Cheers,
Bill
 
Indeed, Billw. However, it's not impossible to set up a controlled environment for out of body claims. It is simply difficult.
 
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