Anonymou5
New
About 20 mins in, decent verified case
Thanks for this, it was indeed a very good case. These are the types of cases that we need to focus on the most in my opinion.
About 20 mins in, decent verified case
I don't think that's necessary at this point.
For example, I have accompanied my dad to various of his operations for a shoulder injury he had. I have had the experience of having to wait long hours in the waiting room, or some family room while my dad was in surgery. Usually my mother was with me as well. When you're waiting hours you do many things to get your mind off the surgery, and how much time you have to wait. A lot of very unique events and conversations happened during those times when we were waiting for my dad to finish up in surgery.
He was never near death or anything, I'm just using it to illustrate the point that if my dad would have had one of these experiences and came back and told me that he saw one of these unique events, I wouldn't turn around and say "Oh yea, let's see you do that again under lab conditions!".
What makes you so sure Moody interviewed the brother in law? I haven't seen anything suggestive of it. I could care less about the skeptics, and their point of views on this stuff any more than I could care about some right wing biblical nut bag's opinion on homosexuality. Their mind is already made up, they're not looking at this stuff to see if something new can be discovered.
I do have to say that although it would appear that Viola had no motive to make it up at face value, you can never underestimate some people's desire to simply be noticed. That is why having a witness corroboration is important, because even if they are just doing it for attention, at least we know it's not some made up story. If it checks out, then they can have all the attention they ever want. They'd be entitled to that.
I found something on the net which was a testimony from Viola herself and lots of interesting additions to the case. I saved it to favourites last year but my computer crashed for good and I lost everything. I'll see if I can find it and post some other bits tomorrow
Arouet thinks that he'll be able to find a flaw somewhere.
We are already out of the anecdote tipping point...
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23066 It seems we are being watched LOL.
Yeah, I personally agree with that Tim, I'm convinced because of my own experience's. I'd probably be more resistant if I hadn't had them, but I'm content that my own unique OBE experience requires a radical new explanation.
There are so many strange subjective experiences, whether they are NDE OBE's or otherwise, such as Carl Jung's famous time-slip related in his autobiography. They pop up from time to time, and get little to no exposure. I find them absolutely fascinating, like this one I stumbled across some time ago within the comments section on Skeptoid: http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4296
"In about summer 1986 I was on Southsea beach, Portsmouth, and looking out towards the Idle of Wight - about two miles away - I could see and hear two old sailing ships - 'men-o-war' - shooting cannon at one another. I can remember thinking it strange, that no one else on the beach was looking at it - people are always looking at the ships out to sea in Portsmouth.
I told people for ages afterwards and looked in the local paper - it has ALL local ship movements - and checked to see if anything was being filmed out at sea.
Never found anything to confirm it actually happened and I don't believe in ghosts !!!
I just think the mind plays tricks at times. Quite weird though.
Mr C, Portsmouth, England
July 16, 2012 2:16pm"
Hey Max, I'm glad that you posted on this thread. I've actually come across your story a few times while doing research on verified OBE's. I think I first saw it on Penny Sartori's blog in the comment section.
I agree they are fascinating, Max. But they are very difficult to bring in to scientific debate at mainstream level as were NDE's thirty five years ago. The Jung recollection was witnessed by his companion secretary I believe, they both saw what did not in fact exist...if they weren't lying of course :-)Yeah, I personally agree with that Tim, I'm convinced because of my own experience's. I'd probably be more resistant if I hadn't had them, but I'm content that my own unique OBE experience requires a radical new explanation.
There are so many strange subjective experiences, whether they are NDE OBE's or otherwise, such as Carl Jung's famous time-slip related in his autobiography. They pop up from time to time, and get little to no exposure. I find them absolutely fascinating, like this one I stumbled across some time ago within the comments section on Skeptoid: http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4296
"In about summer 1986 I was on Southsea beach, Portsmouth, and looking out towards the Idle of Wight - about two miles away - I could see and hear two old sailing ships - 'men-o-war' - shooting cannon at one another. I can remember thinking it strange, that no one else on the beach was looking at it - people are always looking at the ships out to sea in Portsmouth.
I told people for ages afterwards and looked in the local paper - it has ALL local ship movements - and checked to see if anything was being filmed out at sea.
Never found anything to confirm it actually happened and I don't believe in ghosts !!!
I just think the mind plays tricks at times. Quite weird though.
Mr C, Portsmouth, England
July 16, 2012 2:16pm"
Right, but don't we all agree that legal methodology and scientific methodology are two different things? Among other issues, the legal system has the requirement to make a decision now. Science does not.It's difficult to know whether this is one of those threads which ask for escalating values of what denotes evidence, but if by 'resources' you mean sources, I'd point at the Lloyd Rudi case, the sports shoe on the roof case and the Pam Reynolds case, all of which involve medical workers in some capacity, and details of which are easily Googled. Attempts at debunking centre round the possibility of environmental leakage or residual brain function, but such possibilities would not be entertained IMO, if the cases were legal rather than paradigm changing, as each would be regarded as having an expert witness. Also bear in mind these are far from the only cases with similar characteristics.
"that Shen1986 guy is one of the dumbest debunkers I've ever come across. The bulk of his debunking is him asking his wife for her opinion, and then he subsequently yells "oooh we debunked this one guys!"."LMAO, that Shen1986 guy is one of the dumbest debunkers I've ever come across. The bulk of his debunking is him asking his wife for her opinion, and then he subsequently yells "oooh we debunked this one guys!".
Just look at the first thing he says about Viola'; "Why is she thinking about clothes when she is dead?? Strange.."
Do you even logic bro?
My favorite of his attempts to debunk an NDE was the Jerry Baldwin NDE. He declares it a successful victory after he discovers that NPR had Jerry Baldwin as a call in guest, because as Shen1986 claimed; this made him a celebrity! Case closed folks.
As far as the Raymond Moody only interviewing Viola, I so far haven't found any other record that indicates that he interviewed anybody else. Someone needs to contact Raymond Moody and ask him about it. I've tried contacting Peter Shockey, who made the "Life After Life" documentary, but didn't receive any response. Peter Shockey claims that he and Viola's family became very good friends and kept in touch throughout the years.
"Over the next several years, my wife and I kept in touch with Viola and her husband, Jud, and they became like family. Upon hearing about the birth of our firstborn daughter, Viola sent us a beautiful baby-quilt lovingly crafted by her grandmotherly hands." - Peter Shockey, Reflections of Heaven Pg 20
So I figure if anyone had any more information about whether this was corroborated by another family member, it would be Shockey. This implies that at least Jud her husband corroborated it, unless for those several years Jud was ignorant as to why He and Viola were friends with this documentary filmmaker.
Anyone know why there hasn't been more attention given to the two verified Parnia cases? Or have they been "debunked" because they weren't in controlled environments?
I find them both fascinating, particularly the one where the patient read the Dr's thoughts...
Right. And for cases where a controlled environment is difficult or impossible, you do the next best thing. Like Stevenson did when studying the persistent reports of past life memories--cross interview as many witnesses as possible, check official government records, compare birth defects and scars to medical records of the presumed past life identity, employ polygraph tests, etc. While this does not prove reincarnation, it has led the researchers to conclude based on the evidence that reincarnation is the "best possible explanation" at least in the best couple hundred cases.No scientist worth the name would simply *ignore* prima facie evidence that was persistent.
On the other hand, no scientist worth the name would mistake prima facie evidence for confirmed data in a controlled environment. So for example, it's not enough to have a set of tales from "really reliable people" that they saw a living T rex in an Amazon forest. No scienitst would, could, or should conclude that living T rex exist on that basis.