NDES and OBES: dreams are the key

Kai.

Who here has claimed that anything "leaves the body" in an OBE? Does anything "leave the body" in remote viewing? Does anything "leave the body" in clairvoyance? Why does something have to "leave the body?"

Well I don't have a problem with the idea that the experience is not literally out of body. My argument is really against that literality. I thnk this is a lucid dreaming process..it may very occasionally be enhanced by ESP, but I suspect that would be rare. My suggestion that people read a target that is independently set up for them is offered to stimulate their curiosity as to what is really happening. Again, we have these claims of people doing "real OBEs" all the time, of "meeting up" out of body and so on, and yet they can't read a target. It's true that the target could be read by ESP, but to be honest, at this point, any success in reading a target would be of interest to me.
 
Who here has claimed that anything "leaves the body" in an OBE? Does anything "leave the body" in remote viewing? Does anything "leave the body" in clairvoyance? Why does something have to "leave the body?"

I assert that there is evidence that in some OBEs something goes out of the body and it can be seen by independent witnesses: experiments with Blue Harary and Tanous, reciprocal apparitions, etc. I do not claim to always be so, but in some cases it is. We also have the fact that some OBErs claim that an OBE not feel like a clairvoyant experience.
 
I think that in the paranormal we have a problem which we, frankly, do not even fully understand (as a race) that we have. This problem, condensed to its essence, is that there is a strong relation between the paranormal and storytelling. This relation is clearly visible to anyone who is willing to look without prejudice. It belongs unmistakably to that order of human events which can be called “the attempt – strenuous or playful – to build structures of life-enhancing meaning in a difficult (and sometimes outright hostile) world”…in other words, in earlier days what was called myth.

For the greatest part of our history we have not been concerned with the problem that myths are not “literally” true. They served their purpose precisely *because* they were stories. No one cared whether they were literally true or not…and this same disdain carries on today with our ambivalent attitude towards “science” when it confronts our stories. On the one hand we still have that inner desire to protect story from the searing light of discovery…should that discovery turn out to be anything other than affirmation. Thus…when the Parnia style studies show signs of not producing, we have defensive reasons for this…but if at any point they should *actually* produce, these same processes would be fawned over and Parnia himself hailed as a new Newton and savior of story.

But it conceals a deeper problem. Science is our modern myth. At some point we tipped over from science as pragmatism to science as disclosed Truth. But all “Truths” like that are mythic structures. We have no tools for the discerning of any such thing. We only have tools for the discerning of pragmatic truths (with a small t) and which we call the empirical methods of science. The trouble is that those methods *are* powerful enough to disclose whether or not many of our stories designed to give our lives meaning…are in fact false at the pragmatic level. And this is a crisis that systems of myth have never had to face in such an open way before. You can see the conflict actually waged on a day to day basis on forums like this and many others, because (imo) the issue is not understood in terms of what is really happening at a psychological and socio-cultural level. Our mythic way of addressing the world, which has been our staple for tens of thousands of years, faces extinction if this conflict process is forced to the wall. Something must give. Either the mythic mode. Or science as a disclosure of anything beyond pragmatic truth.

Is there any “pragmatic” as opposed to “mythic” truth to the paranormal? Well before you rush in with a ready answer, try to understand that this is not straightforward. The domain of “pragmatic” truth has certain rules to it that qualify something to occupy that domain. Something that consistently steps around those rules or pleads special exceptions to them cannot really be said to occupy it. On the other hand, mythic space is characterized by story, by story-sharing, by manifestations ancient and modern of the “fireside tale.” I am agnostic on the pragmatic truth of the paranormal. I have been, in the past, so sure of its existence from a distance, only to see it vanish perversely as I draw closer, like a kind of mirage on a wet road. And one wonders if in fact it isn’t going to turn out, always, like this.

I don’t think we can have it both ways. I don’t think that the crisis can resolve like that. And we’ve been putting off the cusp of that crisis for over a century now. The attempt to “sciencify” myths (society of psychical research etc) was always potentially a grave mistake. We are at risk of cutting off the oxygen that gives most of the race a sense of meaning. Science is too peculiar, too precocious, and too recent a child of the mind to be able to substitute for it at all. Maybe in tens of thousands of years that might be possible, but not in tens of years.

On the other hand, we are kind of trapped. We have checkmated ourselves with this, because we cannot pretend, any more, that the *pragmatic* truth-discerning abilities of science are an illusion. And if the pragmatic verdict of science turns out to be that paranormal is an illusion, then the only defense of the mythic mode against this is to retreat into story. But even this is not satisfactory, for while it may retain a sense of the erstwhile mythic mode and its power, that power will be reduced and borne with a sense of doubt.

And this is what I mean when I say that H. sapiens faces a crisis of its myths the like of which it has never faced before. This question is much much more important than whether people see a teapot or not when they are apparently out of body. Really that is just a microcosmic face of the much larger problem.

Wow, I have to say this is a fascinating post. If the problem is correct as you've outlined have you worked out any possible solutions?
 
Also, still not clear on your use of "lucid dreaming". The reason I mention it again is that built into the meaning of the lucid dreaming is the idea that you are aware that you are in a dream. Are you simply saying that people are mistaking lucid dreams for OBEs?
 
I assert that there is evidence that in some OBEs something goes out of the body and it can be seen by independent witnesses: experiments with Blue Harary and Tanous, reciprocal apparitions, etc. I do not claim to always be so, but in some cases it is. We also have the fact that some OBErs claim that an OBE not feel like a clairvoyant experience.
Don't forget Osis' experiments where a prism was installed in the hidden room, with the idea that a remote viewer should see through the prison in one way and a traveling viewpoint should see it another way. He received accurate descriptions of both scenarios, which seemed to concide with whether the OBE had a clean exit or not. When the OBE exit was terrible, it had more dream-like qualities and veridical details (if any) were more congruent with a remote viewer while the clean exits were more congruent with the moving vantage point descriptions.
 
Don't forget Osis' experiments where a prism was installed in the hidden room, with the idea that a remote viewer should see through the prison in one way and a traveling viewpoint should see it another way. He received accurate descriptions of both scenarios, which seemed to concide with whether the OBE had a clean exit or not. When the OBE exit was terrible, it had more dream-like qualities and veridical details (if any) were more congruent with a remote viewer while the clean exits were more congruent with the moving vantage point descriptions.

I wonder how I can get hold of that prism using paper by Karlis Osis?
 
Also, still not clear on your use of "lucid dreaming". The reason I mention it again is that built into the meaning of the lucid dreaming is the idea that you are aware that you are in a dream. Are you simply saying that people are mistaking lucid dreams for OBEs?

I'm saying that an OBE is a lucid dream with imagery that represents to the dreamer their real world physical environs.
 
But the OBEer would know that they were in an OBE. Hmm.

I'm not sure. My point is that an OBE cannot be a lucid dream, because a lucid dream is defined by awareness that you are dreaming. Therefore it can not be interpreted as something else. I think it would be more appropriate for Kai to hypothesize that an OBE is simply a dream that is mistaken as reality.
 
I'm saying that an OBE is a lucid dream with imagery that represents to the dreamer their real world physical environs.

OBEs and lucid dreams are very different. I have had one OBE and many lucid dreams. In my best lucid dreams I have been in real world physical environment (my bedroom, living room etc.) and everything has felt exactly the same as in waking reality. If I punch the wall with my fist, it feels exactly the same as in real life. If I touch a can of beer, it feels cold etc. Still, when I woke up, I knew that it was a dream. OBE was a completely different experience.
 
I'm not sure. My point is that an OBE cannot be a lucid dream, because a lucid dream is defined by awareness that you are dreaming. Therefore it can not be interpreted as something else. I think it would be more appropriate for Kai to hypothesize that an OBE is simply a dream that is mistaken as reality.
Right, but a dream where one maintains a fully conscious awareness that one is experiencing the non-physical and can be initiated from a waking state? There are some distinct differences I think. The gray area perhaps exists in the fact that there can be degrees of lucidity in both experiences. There is cross-over but I'm not ready to say one is identical to the other.
 
And the dreamer is unaware it's a dream, and instead believes it to be real?

That depends on the dreamer. If they were not habituated to lucid dreams, they would probably conclude it real, especially if all they had experienced up to that point was ordinary dreams.
 
I'm not sure. My point is that an OBE cannot be a lucid dream, because a lucid dream is defined by awareness that you are dreaming. Therefore it can not be interpreted as something else. I think it would be more appropriate for Kai to hypothesize that an OBE is simply a dream that is mistaken as reality.

But an ordinary dream does not have the necessary *lucidity* which is a feature of both fully developed lucid dreams and that form of dreaming-with-lucidity that people are calling "OBEs". If you like we can call it a lucid dreaming process where the experiencing consciousness is bluffed into believing that they aren't in a dream construct, but which nevertheless has a waking level of lucidity when fully developed.
 
OBEs and lucid dreams are very different. I have had one OBE and many lucid dreams. In my best lucid dreams I have been in real world physical environment (my bedroom, living room etc.) and everything has felt exactly the same as in waking reality. If I punch the wall with my fist, it feels exactly the same as in real life. If I touch a can of beer, it feels cold etc. Still, when I woke up, I knew that it was a dream. OBE was a completely different experience.

Well, my experience differs from this. Probably in part because I was steeped in the desire to achieve "OBEs" my dreams (ordinary as well as any that were lucid) would take on the rumored properties of OBEs (passing through windows, curtains etc)..so again, it is clear, that dreaming can do all of this stuff, and that the distinction is (imo) semantic, and a case of special pleading.
 
I really don't care whether you "buy in" or not. That's your problem. I know it to be the truth.
Better luck next life with those OBE's, Kai. ;) In this one, with no personal experiences with the OBE, this thread is purely your intellectual playground and way off the course of this truth you actually don't seek.
 
Wow, I have to say this is a fascinating post. If the problem is correct as you've outlined have you worked out any possible solutions?

No, I don't know the solution. I suspect that would ultimately be "the solution to life"...and who the heck knows that? (who isn't an idiot).
 
But an ordinary dream does not have the necessary *lucidity* which is a feature of both fully developed lucid dreams and that form of dreaming-with-lucidity that people are calling "OBEs". If you like we can call it a lucid dreaming process where the experiencing consciousness is bluffed into believing that they aren't in a dream construct, but which nevertheless has a waking level of lucidity when fully developed.

Ok, within the context of your post that seems a lot clearer to me. Thank you.
 
I've also tried to have an OBE and I don't think it is something "anyone" can do. I've been on courses and done guided meditation to no avail. I don't know if it is related but I have also been to hypnotists - mostly professionals but one stage entertainer - and none of them were able to hypnotise me. I wanted them to but it just didn't work.

But something one experiencer told me has always seemed relevant. He said that in his group they have joint OBEs ... they arrange to meet "out there". Then they compare notes afterwards, describing the location and surroundings, etc. I guess this could be telepathy, I don't really know. But they all say that the experience is as real as the way I feel sitting and typing this post is real to me at this moment.

The capability to OBE is within everyone. The ability to produce a self-initiated OBE is not. My history in teaching the OBE is that 90% accomplish at least one OBE, and of those, the more effort they put in, the more OBEs per time period (monthly) that accomplish. Once you turn this consciousness alteration on, you can expect that it may never turn off. :)
 
Better luck next life with those OBE's, Kai. ;) In this one, with no personal experiences with the OBE, this thread is purely your intellectual playground and way off the course of this truth you actually don't seek.

Not up to Kai's challenge then, Tyler?
 
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