Famous neurosurgeon Dr Henry Marsh was recently put on the spot about consciousness and NDEs on the BBC news channel feature Hard Talk.
He agreed with the interviewer Stephen Sachur that the idea of drilling and sawing through memories and emotions contained in brain jelly was “utterly bizarre” and “too strange to understand”
But the idea of mind or soul separate from the brain he found ‘deeply improbable’
In case the link to the interview is not viewable outside the UK, I have transcribed the relevant portions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06v2kqw/hardtalk-dr-henry-marsh
For those who can watch it – fast forward to 12mins 26secs
Dr Marsh was being quizzed about his book ‘Do No Harm: Stories of Life, Death and Brain Surgery’
Transcript....
SS Let me talk to you about the brain itself – this most amazing organ of ours.
It’s so complex and so mysterious in so many ways but you approach it sometimes with drills, saws, knives and suckers and there is something quite bizarre you’re involved in.
HM It is utterly bizarre. It’s something that when I was young I took for granted but as I get older I am more and more amazed by the fundamental mystery that everything you and I are thinking at the moment is electro-chemistry.
It doesn’t feel like electro-chemistry. It feels free and insubstantial but we are the product of electro-chemical activity in nerve cells.
And although I’m a complete believer in science with a capital S, what fascinates me is that with modern science we cannot even begin to explain how thoughts and feelings like consciousness arise. We just don’t know
SS Your career has spanned 35 years in brains. Are you telling me that in the 35 years you’ve learned very little more about how that electro-chemistry work, how thoughts and imagination work...?
HM It’s like saying we know how a brick is made but it doesn’t tell us anything about how the house was made by the brick.
So although there’s a huge amount of neuroscience going on, what really interests us as human beings, is ourselves, our feelings and consciousness.
And we can’t know that. And you can’t experiment on it either.
SS At one point you write about being struck with one operation, your sucker – the thing that you suck jelly out, ‘My sucker’s going through thought itself – through emotions...and that memory, reason and dreams consist of this jelly, is simply too strange to understand’
HM It’s the last great mystery...
SS How dare you suck out all this jelly when you could be sucking out people’s imaginations, thoughts or dreams?
HM Well the answer to that is that the illness you’re trying to treat is even worse than the operation.
(Few more unrelated questions then...)
SS On the philosophical side, you said to me ‘I’m a scientist – I believe in science with a capital S.
But you know for centuries, philosophers and scientific thinkers have posited the notion that in the end our mind, our soul is separate from the physical reality of this thing between our ears.
Are you telling me you are absolutely convinced there is no possibility of this being true?
HM I think it is highly unlikely (smiles) – deeply improbable..
SS The brain is everything?
HM The brain....but we don’t understand how the brain works and maybe we never will and I find that infinite mystery rather reassuring.
We all know the macrocosm of the Big Bang, all the stuff recently about the anniversary of Einstein’s relativity. Actually each of us is in our own heads. Our consciousness is as great a mystery as the Big Bang.
SS I’m sure you’ve read the science papers that address Near Death Experiences
HM Yes
SS...the notion that people credibly and under scientific conditions, can recollect experiences they’ve had when nominally the machinery has told us they are brain dead. You think that’s a mirage do you?
HM It’s a complicated area. Brain dead is rather different. Near Death Experiences are a well recognised phenomenon...
SS But they come out of the brain?
HM They are out of the brain – that’s what it comes down to..
He agreed with the interviewer Stephen Sachur that the idea of drilling and sawing through memories and emotions contained in brain jelly was “utterly bizarre” and “too strange to understand”
But the idea of mind or soul separate from the brain he found ‘deeply improbable’
In case the link to the interview is not viewable outside the UK, I have transcribed the relevant portions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06v2kqw/hardtalk-dr-henry-marsh
For those who can watch it – fast forward to 12mins 26secs
Dr Marsh was being quizzed about his book ‘Do No Harm: Stories of Life, Death and Brain Surgery’
Transcript....
SS Let me talk to you about the brain itself – this most amazing organ of ours.
It’s so complex and so mysterious in so many ways but you approach it sometimes with drills, saws, knives and suckers and there is something quite bizarre you’re involved in.
HM It is utterly bizarre. It’s something that when I was young I took for granted but as I get older I am more and more amazed by the fundamental mystery that everything you and I are thinking at the moment is electro-chemistry.
It doesn’t feel like electro-chemistry. It feels free and insubstantial but we are the product of electro-chemical activity in nerve cells.
And although I’m a complete believer in science with a capital S, what fascinates me is that with modern science we cannot even begin to explain how thoughts and feelings like consciousness arise. We just don’t know
SS Your career has spanned 35 years in brains. Are you telling me that in the 35 years you’ve learned very little more about how that electro-chemistry work, how thoughts and imagination work...?
HM It’s like saying we know how a brick is made but it doesn’t tell us anything about how the house was made by the brick.
So although there’s a huge amount of neuroscience going on, what really interests us as human beings, is ourselves, our feelings and consciousness.
And we can’t know that. And you can’t experiment on it either.
SS At one point you write about being struck with one operation, your sucker – the thing that you suck jelly out, ‘My sucker’s going through thought itself – through emotions...and that memory, reason and dreams consist of this jelly, is simply too strange to understand’
HM It’s the last great mystery...
SS How dare you suck out all this jelly when you could be sucking out people’s imaginations, thoughts or dreams?
HM Well the answer to that is that the illness you’re trying to treat is even worse than the operation.
(Few more unrelated questions then...)
SS On the philosophical side, you said to me ‘I’m a scientist – I believe in science with a capital S.
But you know for centuries, philosophers and scientific thinkers have posited the notion that in the end our mind, our soul is separate from the physical reality of this thing between our ears.
Are you telling me you are absolutely convinced there is no possibility of this being true?
HM I think it is highly unlikely (smiles) – deeply improbable..
SS The brain is everything?
HM The brain....but we don’t understand how the brain works and maybe we never will and I find that infinite mystery rather reassuring.
We all know the macrocosm of the Big Bang, all the stuff recently about the anniversary of Einstein’s relativity. Actually each of us is in our own heads. Our consciousness is as great a mystery as the Big Bang.
SS I’m sure you’ve read the science papers that address Near Death Experiences
HM Yes
SS...the notion that people credibly and under scientific conditions, can recollect experiences they’ve had when nominally the machinery has told us they are brain dead. You think that’s a mirage do you?
HM It’s a complicated area. Brain dead is rather different. Near Death Experiences are a well recognised phenomenon...
SS But they come out of the brain?
HM They are out of the brain – that’s what it comes down to..
