Non western NDEs

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by materialism is bad, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. materialism is bad

    materialism is bad New

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    Does anyone know credible research on non western NDEs, especially for asia & eastern europe & south america? I've seen a few indian ones, more interested in others. Please link if you know thanks.
     
  2. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    I think someone - perhaps it was Max - posted something on NDEs from Japan - somewhere on this forum.

    Personally, though I don't know how to access them except by manual search, the NDERF site does include a few accounts from almost anywhere. South America seems reasonably common, though the majority are USA and Western Europe.

    Here for example, current NDE accounts from:
    Mexico, Peru, Sweden, Columbia, Denmark, Australia, Turkey, Russia, Taiwan, Portugal, Germany, France
    on the first page:
    http://www.nderf.org/Archives/NDERF_NDEs.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  3. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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  4. Laird

    Laird Member

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  5. Trancestate

    Trancestate Member

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  6. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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  7. materialism is bad

    materialism is bad New

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    Thanks for the replies, what do you people think about the cultural differences in NDEs? E.g. the Thai NDEs are very different, lacking being of light, universal love, life review, the most critical components of western NDEs. This also doesn't make sense with materialist explanations, because certain elements of NDEs like feeling of intense love and seeing bright light must be physiological and so all cultures should experience it. And very young kids too young to learn of the cultural depiction of death, in western NDEs, report similar experience to adults. The cultural differences doesn't make sense with either transcendental or materialist explanations.
     
  8. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    It makes sense from idealism and a few ideas that don't posit an independent objective reality, in this side or the 'other'. It takes the individual's role from one that is merely participatory (as in part of a consensus) to something different, perhaps larger, or at least more depurated.
     
  9. materialism is bad

    materialism is bad New

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    What about children too young to have any indoctrination of afterlife? According to idealism they should see nothing, since they believe nothing.
     
  10. oleo

    oleo Member

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    Perhaps it is based on the perceived need of the individual.
     
  11. Laird

    Laird Member

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    For convenience, here's a direct link to Chapter 4:The Cultural Variations of the NDE [Note: Doug informs me that this link takes him to the cover of the book, not the first page of chapter 4, whereas this link takes him to the right spot, so if the first doesn't work, try the second... linking to individual Google Books pages seems quite arcane!]. There are quite a few references in that chapter that could be followed up on.

    As for what the cultural variations mean or say about NDEs and/or (extended) consciousness, I have not much to say at the moment, am still processing it all. I'm glad MIB started this thread though, as I was contemplating doing exactly the same thing... very timely/synchronous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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  12. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    Left overs. There is nothing that explicitly prohibits reincarnation within most of these models ("Idealism" being an umbrella term), and some idealist-ish ideas like Campbell's VR actually push it forward.

    Of course, it could be simply a matter of the medium adapting to ease the transition, as some of the colleagues will argue.
     
  13. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Maybe the morphogenic field extends into the other realm?
     
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  14. Trancestate

    Trancestate Member

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    I feel there's an unconscious group influence taking place here. If, as is stated by so many NDErs, we are all intimately connected at an unconscious level, then it's easy to imagine toddlers (and everyone else, for that matter) absorbing cultural memes through telepathy. This could also explain why some atheists living in predominantly Christian cultures meet Jesus during their NDEs.

    We may be individuals at the level of waking consciousness, but I think we're all deeply embedded in localized streams of collective unconsciousness. Our perceptions of transcendent realities are unconsciously influenced not only by our own expectations, but also by the expectations of the cultural group to which we belong. I believe this view is very much in keeping with an idealist perspective.

    Doug
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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  15. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    You can't make sense of it, if you just view these experiences through the experient in isolation.
     
  16. materialism is bad

    materialism is bad New

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    I think it's too much to assume all western NDEs must follow the tunnel/universal love/bright white light pattern. When I think about it, many western NDEs don't have these characteristics.

    Has anyone heard of an NDE where some authority figure or deceased relative communicated to the NDEr verbally, and not telepathically? Or an NDE where they were told to stay, or they chose to stay, but suddenly woke up?

    Of all the NDEs I've seen, all communications are telepathic. I've never had telepathic communication in my dreams, I always talk to people verbally. I want to know if anyone knows NDEs where they communicate verbally. Also, I've never seen an NDE where they met deceased relative or authority, was talking to them, and suddenly woke up in the middle of the conversation. The experience never seems to end abruptly if they met a supernatural being (but many NDEs do end abruptly if they only see white light/going down the tunnel), I would like to know if anyone knows anything contrary to this. Thanks.
     
  17. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I'm not sure if I have heard of an NDE of any sort that ended so abruptly that there was no message about needing to go back, or choosing. Maybe someone can supply a link?

    David
     
  18. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    The sample size of "non-western" NDE's is very small at the moment. I have been doing almost nothing recently (waiting to be professionally licensed in a new state) but listening to and reading about NDE's. A few observations. 1) The Japanese literature on case studies is very scant. Thats one problem. Here is my take on the ones done in that study referenced above, which had 18? subjects. There were many similarities. Rather than personally qualm over the differences I find the similarities just as if not more interesting. First off, Japanese people DO experience NDE's. In that study, the majority (similarly to Western NDE's) experienced both Heavenly beings and a Heavenly place. Yes, not as many experienced a light, but some did, AND a great deal of Western NDE's do not experience "The Light" either. So the immediate difference there I don't think is as stark as some may believe at first glance. Most (also in accordance with Western NDE's) experienced a broadening of sense of purpose and an elimination of the fear of death. There was also a large amount of nature-related imagery in the Japanese accounts, which many Western report as well along with feelings of wellbeing with only one reporting feelings of overwhelming love. Another thing to consider, the Japanese as a culture do not really speak openly about love, and actually it has been seen in the patriarchal society as something to be done away with and discarded and as something that hinders progress. But these Japanese accounts do generally report feelings of euphoria, which may or may not be their way of expressing the word love.

    The Thai ones are drastically different from the Japanese and Western NDE's, at least the ones in reported in that link above. If you look on the NDERF page, there are only a few from Southeast Asia (like Thailand) and these are in Hong Kong. And the couple that I did come across on NDERF DID report feelings of love. There are also several accounts of Indians (the country) where feelings of love and a light were experienced on the NDERF page (similar culture and religious views to Thailand. This one for example, feels far more Western than the Thai ones in question https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1suresh_k_nde.html We can't really know much about the veracity of these Thailand reports found in the link up above in this thread as they were reported on a website called "The God Helmet", so its clear that these people are in the NDE "debunking" business. We dont even know if these reports are first hand accounts. It states that they were "taken from popular literature." One thing I noted in the way of objective difference, in the Thai ones reported, instead of being told they have to "go back because you have unfinished business", they were generally told something along the lines of (usually), "We got the wrong person, you have to go back, we were looking for somebody else in your building." Really seems kind of silly. The Japanese NDE's AND the 2 or 3 southestern asian NDE's I found on the NDERF page, did report feelings of euphoria. Here is something critical to note. These accounts taken from Thailand WERE TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH BY A BUDDHIST MONK. So, 1) we dont even know if they are first hand accounts 2) they were "taken from popular literature 3) they were posted (maybe cherry picked/maybe not) by an NDE debunking website 4) They were translated into English by a Buddhist monk. Of the 11 accounts One was also a "pre-morten vison" and another occured after a man was declared dead and only at the funeral when he began pounding on the casket did they realize that he wasnt deceased. Not entirely impossible of course, but that whole Thai "study" seems laden with problems to me. The Japanese accounts which were (generally) largely similar to the Western NDE's are of much higher quality considering their source and method of gathering.

    Here is another thing to consider, for all the common core themes found in Western NDE's, there are also WILD differences abound. So differences in NDE's in not simply Eastern Vs Western, but also largely individual within those specific cultures. And some of these differences are confusing and difficult to explain. Just my take on the Thai and Japanese accounts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
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  19. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    This is a good link with some examples on video of on-western NDEs along with a lot of helpful links. Skeptiko is actually referenced on here. There is an IANDS article on their with a summary of non-western NDEs, but you need a subscription, which I will buy here before too long. I'll share it once I have it in hand. A serious problem I'm finding with these non-western NDEs is their credibility. Watch the 5 videos at the bottom after clicking the link to see what I mean. Unemotional and very fake and scripted. The first one is a little emotional, but the kid was standing there saying whatever it was that his master wanted him to.

    http://the-formula.org/historical-cross-cultural-near-death-experiences/
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  20. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    I e-mailed Dr. Long with regards to this along with links to two studies of Japanese NDE's where the "loving light" is far less "stand-outish" and why that may be, and he responded! He is going to analyze the studies and respond. I emailed Eben Alexander but have not heard back from him. He probably gets a fair amount of e-mails daily. Stay tuned!
     

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