OBE case during *awake* craniotomy...

Max_B

Max_B

Member
Interesting OBE case during awake craniotomy to remove a tumor... unfortunately there is very little additional detail provided about the patients actual experience, I assume this is because such detail is not thought important.

However here's the important bit...

obe_craniotomy.jpg


 
So is the highlighted bit is all there is about the experiences? I guess it's clear enough, but it would've been nice to have a bit more detail. Pretty interesting, nonetheless.
 
Given the stimulation, some would likely say "hallucination". But, AFAIK, the kind of hallucination usually recorded in these surgeries are quite rudimentary (shapes, colors, patterns... That sort of thing).

BTW, since the apparent link between damage/stimulation in the temporo-parietal junction and OBEs has been postulated for a decade or so, what has been discussed in Skeptiko about it?

Testing the verticality of these should be easier than randomly expecting a patient to go into cardiac arrest. If you can encounter the right MD/patient combo, that is.
 
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E.Flowers said:
Given the stimulation, some would likely say "hallucination". But, AFAIK, the kind of hallucination usually recorded in these surgeries are quite rudimentary (shapes, colors, patterns... That sort of thing).

BTW, since the apparent link between damage/stimulation in the temporo-parietal junction and OBEs has been postulated for a decade or so, what has been discussed in Skeptiko about it?

Testing the verticality of these should be easier than randomly expecting a patient to go into cardiac arrest. If you can encounter the right MD/patient combo, that is.
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Yep, it would be nice for them to test whether veridical... (but I doubt anyone wants to do that because it's not on the radar scope).

I'd like to know more about them having to stop testing because the patient became 'emotional'... Strong feelings are a feature of NDE OBE...

Difficult to understand this very specific waking OBE effect (relocation of self, seeing body etc), when thought about in terms of the classic hospital NDE OBE following cardiac arrest, and Henrik Ehrsson's work which requires alternative sensory input to relocate 'self'.
 
That's interesting, Max

More detail on what she reported would have been helpful ; did she report anything that couldn't have been seen from where she was secured (presumable her head was clamped and maybe her eyes were taped shut ) .
I don't think the authors of this paper would postulate that the woman was actually at the ceiling, rather they would claim that stimulation of the part of the brain alluded to, caused her to "feel" that she was at the ceiling and so on (as you well know of course)...and therefore OBE's reported during NDE can be set aside as tricks of the brain. You (your theory) would claim that the visual image of her body was transmitted into her head by the observation of the doctors I guess and maybe you would say it worked even better with her skull cap removed ?

From my point of view,the problem here is that the woman's brain was still working, whereas in cardiac arrest after 10-20 seconds there is no brain function.

You may have seen Ray's OBE during his cardiac arrest that I posted elsewhere. Ray was dead, the crash team had almost resigned themselves to that but shocked him one final time. Barry who was holding the defib paddles said to his colleagues .. "If this doesn't bring him back, nothing will." Ray watched all this from a position above his own physical forehead and heard that statement.
 
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tim said:
From my point of view,the problem here is that the woman's brain was still working, whereas in cardiac arrest after 10-20 seconds there is no brain function.
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Yep, it's difficult to understand why there is an apparent similarity of experience between two quite different physiological conditions (when wakeful vs during cardiac arrest/resuscitation ).

If it was veridical, or contained veridical elements, then yes I would say her networks could have been disrupted by the electrical shock, and temporarily resynchronised with some some compatible external field data incorporated...

I saw your post on Ray's OBE... but didn't comment... I'd really like to know which member of staff was to Barry's right... "...then Barry appeared with the defibrillator to my left hand side, Barry and my soul were very nearly at eye level to each other and as I looked at him..."
 
I was able to get a copy of the paper, and what Max posted was the most detailed description the authors gave about the patient's experiences. They do mention that they videotaped her the day after her surgery describing the sensations and experiences she had, but don't go into much much more detail than that. I think that It would have been cool of them to add a transcript of the video or something, but that's just my nitpicking.
 
Diatom said:
I tried to find some more info on this.
Here's another one where electrical stimulation lead to an OBE: http://espra.scicog.fr/blanke_2002_nature.pdf

Here's one that reviews and statistically analyzes phenomenological, functional, and anatomical variables in AP of neurological origin (n=41 patients) that have been described over the last 100 years.
https://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/154891/files/2005_Blanke_BRR_obe heautoscopy and autoscopic hallucination of neurological origin.pdf
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IIRC one of the interesting observations from the second study you mentioned is that experiences where the subject is in a stand up & sit up position seems to also have partial autoscopic imagery (seeing just parts of their body). Where as when the subject is lying down, they seem to have mainly full autoscopic imagery (see their full body lying down).

If you think about the practicalities of gravity (if you collapse you fall down etc), together with how we use tables and desks and the view they afford us, or, why we go up high to get a good view... (as well as the different physiological states that tend to go with these positions)

...Then I think it's reasonable to suggest the differences between standing up, vs lying down may provide a clue as to where some of the apparent veridical imagery recalled by these subjects could be coming from.
 
Max_B said:
I'd really like to know which member of staff was to Barry's right.
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There were several members around him (both sides as far as I can tell).... the crash team. He went back and forth from his body to a position above his forehead where he reported "squatting" on his haunches. Believe it or not he was able to see that he had etheric feet (he reported an etheric body which is not usually (reported)... about 10% in Sabom's study claimed to have some kind of body) He said this was easy to do and was aware of what was going on with the "mechanics" of the situation ie his soul (as he said) was out.

On one occasion he felt himself rise up to the ceiling and I've copied and pasted his statement below ...

"I was blown away by the realization that I am on the ceiling, I could see the tiny fibre board holes on the tiles, followed by bright white cold light coming from what appeared to be the fluorescent lights, I then had the feeling of falling back down in to my body, "

Ray is a practical guy (an engineer) BTW
 
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tim said:
There were several members around him (both sides as far as I can tell).... the crash team. He went back and forth from his body to a position above his forehead where he reported "squatting" on his haunches. Believe it or not he was able to see that he had etheric feet (he reported an etheric body which is not usually (reported)... about 10% in Sabom's study claimed to have some kind of body) He said this was easy to do and was aware of what was going on with the "mechanics" of the situation ie his soul (as he said) was out.

On one occasion he felt himself rise up to the ceiling and I've copied and pasted his statement below ...

"I was blown away by the realization that I am on the ceiling, I could see the tiny fibre board holes on the tiles, followed by bright white cold light coming from what appeared to be the fluorescent lights, I then had the feeling of falling back down in to my body, "

Ray is a practical guy (an engineer) BTW
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There ain't really much I can say about etheric feet...

One of my colleagues had some sort of heart failure, and was expected to die, family was called, but he made s recovery after hours of working on him. He admitted to me privately that had had an OBE above the operating table positioned at normal standing height looking down across his body. He said he felt his legs were stuck so he couldn't get free

It was as if the imagery was partially generated from this location, so that 'self' was located there, and everything else (sense of legs being stuck) simply followed.
 
Sorry to go off track slightly but all this talk about observation position makes me think of something my car does. It has cameras around the car but generates a view of the car as if from above. So when I am manoeuvring, it looks like I am observing the car from above, but obviously I'm not.Very clever.

I'm not sure whether there is some parallel or not and there is definitely no camera above the car. Just a thought.
 
Max_B said:
There ain't really much I can say about etheric feet...
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It was me that added "etheric," Max, he just said he noticed he had feet and they were smaller than his physical feet. It's unusual for people undergoing an OBE to report this but certainly not unheard of. The old Dr Wiltse case for instance or Tony Cicoria more recently.

Max_B said:
One of my colleagues had some sort of heart failure, and was expected to die, family was called, but he made s recovery after hours of working on him. He admitted to me privately that had had an OBE above the operating table positioned at normal standing height looking down across his body. He said he felt his legs were stuck so he couldn't get free
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Very interesting. This would be a typical example wouldn't it, albeit the legs being stuck is odd ? Did you ask him if he actually believed he was watching his own physical body ? And did you explain your theory to him and if so, how did it go down ?
 
tim said:
It was me that added "etheric," Max, he just said he noticed he had feet and they were smaller than his physical feet. It's unusual for people undergoing an OBE to report this but certainly not unheard of. The old Dr Wiltse case for instance or Tony Cicoria more recently.



Very interesting. This would be a typical example wouldn't it, albeit the legs being stuck is odd ? Did you ask him if he actually believed he was watching his own physical body ? And did you explain your theory to him and if so, how did it go down ?
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Penny had a case where the experient says he saw grey feet...

As regards my colleague... It seems I was the only person he had told (it subsequently turned out that not even his wife knew). I can only remember him feeling a little uncomfortable telling me. I think I just listened... no point launching into my ideas, most people don't have the foggiest what I'm on about... or think I'm a little odd :eek:
 
Max_B said:
Penny had a case where the experient says he saw grey feet...
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Yes, I remember that one now.

Max_B said:
I think I just listened... no point launching into my ideas, most people don't have the foggiest what I'm on about... or think I'm a little odd
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You've certainly put a lot of work in to your theory, Max, I'll give you that. As regards invisible eyes, I can well understand why many people reject what they can't see. On Gerry Woerlee's site, he reports the case of a young woman having a nose operation who had an OBE, Gerry was sitting beside his machine etc, and he added that it was the first one he'd ever been told about.

She apparently accurately described the scene from a position at the bottom of the operating table. Gerry, bless him, was able to conclude that OBE's are therefore definitely illusionary as neither he nor his colleagues saw her "spirit" there !" :) How about that ?? Can't see it, it's not there. QED
 
tim said:
Yes, I remember that one now.



You've certainly put a lot of work in to your theory, Max, I'll give you that. As regards invisible eyes, I can well understand why many people reject what they can't see. On Gerry Woerlee's site, he reports the case of a young woman having a nose operation who had an OBE, Gerry was sitting beside his machine etc, and he added that it was the first one he'd ever been told about.

She apparently accurately described the scene from a position at the bottom of the operating table. Gerry, bless him, was able to conclude that OBE's are therefore definitely illusionary as neither he nor his colleagues saw her "spirit" there !" :) How about that ?? Can't see it, it's not there. QED
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I fit in the middle somewhere...

I think people do somehow gain access to information that is dislocated in space-time.

And the more dislocated it is, the more we are liable to notice it.

It suggests that the way we've currently come understand the world is incorrect. Nothing is going to really change about how we percieve the world, we'll just understand things differently.

But it probably has major implications on peoples rights to create their own patterns and meanings.
 
Obiwan said:
Sorry to go off track slightly but all this talk about observation position makes me think of something my car does. It has cameras around the car but generates a view of the car as if from above. So when I am manoeuvring, it looks like I am observing the car from above, but obviously I'm not.Very clever.
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Show off.
 
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