pam reynolds case, inconsistencies, please read

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by beta provider cuckold, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    im genuinely interested in this stuff, so if ur a pseudoskeptic or fanatic believer please dont respond. i only want open minded people to reply.

    i was reading here http://www.neardth.com/pam-reynolds-near-death-experience.php

    to me there are evidence both supporting and debunking her experience

    the most important inconsistency debunking her experience is this: she said she heard the defib twice, and on the second time she felt it and went inside her body. but she also reported when coming back from the tunnel she heard hotel california and the line "you can always check in but never leave", that's the FINAL line in the song. the song played AFTER the defib, when her wounds were getting sewn shut.

    the thing supporting the reality of what she saw is that she did not report any discontinuation during her experience. her OBE was verified before and after 11:25, when her temp was 15 degrees, brainstem flatline, no heart beat, so during this time the brain must be shut down. if her experience was indeed a hallucination, it's weird that her experience was continuous, because when the brain reboots after ~11:30 u'd expect her to experience something different, and not have the experience being continuous.

    either her experience was a hallucination or its real. but there are evidence supporting both sides. whats going on?

    does anyone have reliable 1st hand account of what pam saw? from her own words and as close to the surgery as possible. thanks
     
  2. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    Deconstructing such accounts is a fool's errand. The Reynolds testimony is important because it set a precedent for many subsequent NDE accounts. More important is why Pam Reynolds might have made up such bizarre and intricate story, and why other people in similar trauma/death would tell similar accounts.
     
  3. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    Don't bother. This looks like another incarnation of our recurrent troll, the grammar (or rather, the lack of it) is a dead giveaway.

    PS- Also, quote Gerry here? Please...
     
  4. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    I was working on that assumption but decided to play a straight bat. It certainly looks like the early stages of armchair debunking. Pam said x minutes but the surgeon said y and if she can't be trusted about a tune can she be trusted about anything else? Well poisoning of a primitive kind, but who knows maybe the thread will throw up something useful?
     
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  5. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    By this point @Smithy et al. have rebutted most, if not all, of Gerry's arguments and they are actively doing so as he comes up with more (i.e. the Amazon saga), so the link in the OP is pretty useless for discussion. I agree that the thread could linger and maybe someone could bring something new to the table... But our friend here needs to go, he has been given enough chances.

    And, worst of all, is that he is as blatant as ever. Last we saw of him, he was "T. Beal" and was involved in Gerry's Amazon affair, now another of the troll accounts "casually" quotes Woerlee. That he expects us to engage him is a bit insulting.
     
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  6. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    wtf? wat makes u think im a troll? im asking a question about possible inconsistency. i want a 1st hand unpolluted account of pam's case, and u start insulting me. who the fuck are u to think u're above other people?
     
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  7. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    i never said pam invented the story. i was trying to verifying whether her NDE was real or just a hallucination. she said after leaving the tunnel and going back to her body she heard hotel california, but also heard the 2 defibs (which was correct, one 50 joule defib then another 100 joule defib). the song played after the defib, which made me think her imagination might have incorporated the song into her experience. but then there's the continuity, because there was a time where she couldnt have conscious thought, so if her NDE was a hallucination then there shouldn't be any continuity.
     
  8. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    None of that puts my mind at rest. Would you like to tell us what makes the Reynolds case emblematic, or what it lacks evidentially? If you want different takes on the case there's no shortage of opinions at the click of a Google. Pam Reynolds died some years ago so there's no first hand opportunity to put things straight.
     
  9. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    ive read a lot and couldnt find anything about the song being played after she entered her body at the second defib.
     
  10. Smithy

    Smithy Member

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    Thanks E.Flowers. It is indeed a bit insulting what "beta provider" brings up. We have investigated the Pam Reynolds exhaustively. He can find all of it in our book The Self Does Not Die (kindle version < $10), in particular chapter 11. The evidence presented in there is, as far as we are concerned, conclusive... but of course not for pseudo-skeptics. For them there is always a way out ... like the amazing Randy said. But their "explanations" are usually more absurd than the actual phenomenon.
     
  11. Smithy

    Smithy Member

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    The song was indeed played, and only once, as confirmed by Dr Karl Greene, at the time the assistent neurosurgeon of Dr Robert Spetzler. See the pertaining information in The Self Does Not Die. At the time her body temperature was 27 degrees centigrade, when she "heard" the song being played before the first shock. (See page 283 in The Self Does Not Die).

    I hope this will settle this matter.
    But truly, I am fed up with the perpetual insinuations about the Reynolds case.
     
  12. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    thanks for the reply. i haven't read the book, but can you please elaborate on the song? if its not too much, can u please give a quote from somewhere? according to videos i've seen on youtube, the song was played after the shocks, when they were closing her wounds. but she seems to report it was played before the shocks. if it was actually played before the defib, that resolves my OP.

    why do you think im a pseudoskeptic? i mentioned it very clearly in my OP. i want to truly believe there is a soul, thats why i read from skeptic articles, to make things even. strong evidence in the reynolds case is that she never reported clicking sounds from the earphones (which she should hear if she was hallucinating), and the continuation of the experience (which is unlikely if she was hallucinating since there was a time when her brain must be down). but seeming inconsistencies make me wonder, and i want to resolve the timeline with the song and the shocks.
     
  13. Smithy

    Smithy Member

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    As I said, the song Hotel California by the Eagles was played before the first defib. I again refer you to our book.

    Sorry if I gave you the impression to call you a pseudo-skeptic. I was speaking in general terms about pseudo-skeptics who always find a way out. As for the source you mentioned, it is the website of anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee aka Gerry. This man is a staunch milititant atheist and materialist. Whatever the evidence against his ideas, he never ever won't accept it, but instead always comes up with "explanations" that at closer scrutiny do not hold.

    Do read our book The Self Does Not Die and you will find out why.
     
  14. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    yea ill definitely read that book

    im reading from skeptic websites to not taint my beliefs. i actually truly want to believe there's a soul, because of all the miseries ive endured in this life, unlike many other people who want to believe for "a peace of heart". many of woerlee's arguments are very weak, he tried to explain away the no clicking sound thing with "pam filtered it out of her head, like we filter out car/bus engines". i can tell u in my experience on a bus, even when not paying attention to anything, i always notice when the engine accelerates. and filtering out 11 per second loud clicks in her ears while hearing outside conversation with clarity is quite unbelievable.
     
  15. Smithy

    Smithy Member

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    Indeed, spot on. As I demonstrated at the IANDS conference. The clicking sounds I made the audience to listen to were unbearable although they were not at the 100 decibel level. The audio system in the conference hall would not go further than 87 decibels, as one guy noticed using his decibel meter.

    Besides, we found an interview with Pam Reynolds wherein she specifcially states that, as for those clicks, she "could not have heard a thing" (page 279 of The Self Does Not Die).
     
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  16. Alex

    Alex New

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    you might want to check out NDErf.org. you'll find 100s and 100s of NDE accounts from ordinary people. you can also search for NDE accounts on Youtube.

    NDE science is great, but it's good to remember that these personal accounts is the starting point for this research.
     
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  17. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger New

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    Your username did not help here in not thinking you were trolling. Search the forum: the Pam Reynolds case has been discussed to death (no pun intended) and pseudo-skeptics often try to discredit her experience.
     
  18. Reece

    Reece Member

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    It's one hell of a username, for sure.
     
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  19. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Cuckold,

    I'm not yet 100% sure if you are serious or not, however, I think it is worth thinking about real policing, as compared with the kind of story you might get on TV - Perry Mason, or Poirot (say), where everything can unravel because someone says their shoes had been moved a short distance, or the bottles were in the fridge in the wrong order! I'm not a policeman, but I doubt if you can reason like that with real people. People forget odd details, or report them with mistakes, or even contradict themselves, and often it is innocuous. You have to weigh the evidence as a whole, and with some common sense.

    I don't know if people report NDE's with occasional, seemingly inconsequential mistakes, but assuming that they do, can you really deduce much out of someone reporting the wrong line of a song? I mean, this was a popular song of the period, and most people would know the lyrics pretty well.

    David
     
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  20. beta provider cuckold

    beta provider cuckold Member

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    yea i go on a forum called the misc. u cant blame me for a choosing my username as something thats discussed constantly on that forum.

    good point about forgetting details. ive analyzed her case in detail and i cant think of a plausible reason to debunk it. in other skeptic articles they argue because her OBE wasn't during the standstill it's "debunked". this doesn't explain how her experience was continuous and she had OBE before and after the standstill.

    if only she had veridical evidence during the stand still, that would 100% prove afterlife. it will forever change the way mankind looks at himself. but then suicide rates will go through the roof though.
     

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