Pizzagate. Plus, Ex-FBI Undercover Agent Bob Hamer |357|

It depends on what you mean by evil. If you mean Satan spawn that are born evil and will always be evil then Spiritualism does not recognize evil in that way.
When I was taking classes at a Spiritualist church they said that what people call "evil spirits" are just undeveloped or ignorant spirits. Spiritualists believe that all spirits eventually evolve to the highest levels.

But actually, I assume that by "evil" you mean "does nasty things" in which case some ignorant spirits could be considered evil in that sense. I use the term that way myself because it is convenient.
I explained what I mean by evil in an earlier post as being a relative term - so no I dont mean it in the sense of Satan spawn
 
I was reading J.G. Bennett's "The Way to Be Free" last night and on page 41 he references his teacher, Gurdjieff having said, "right is that from which our conscience can rest and be at peace."

Riffing on that, wrong - or evil - would be that from which our conscience cannot rest and is not at peace. One becomes perturbed, becomes disturbed by the wrong and evil that is illumined within one's awareness. This is universal. We all confront darkness from time to time - some more than others. The trick to dealing with this, however, is not to own it - not to identify with it. The same goes for all the things that feel "good" too. The whole "thoughts are things" slogan that the New Thought folks slung around is true in this way - just like a desk or a chair a thought is a thing AND THEREFORE NOT 'US' - the same is true of thoughts. Like a bird that flies into your field of vision and then flies away and disappears, the same is true of thoughts. Let them come and go. Instead of staring at the vultures, appreciate the cardinal or the oriole. The vulture will still visit from time to time, but less and less. Don't focus on pulling up weeds - choke out the weeds by overfilling the ground with vegetables and flowers. Better still, cling to neither. Rest in awareness. You are not good or bad, beautiful or ugly, valuable or worthless - you are the radiance that these realities are illumined within.

Or, identify with them and get sucked down the spiral by the gravity of these things until, so identified with them, you cannot distinguish yourself from them any longer - and become captive to their nature.

*EDIT*

I didn't finish my point: As you put it, Alex, these NAMBLA types have worked themselves into a sort of group frenzy - a mob mentality of sorts - that pushes them through the firewall of one's conscience into celebrating the unconscionable. There's a significance to the group aspect of all this in terms of enabling abhorrent behavior and defeating the generally reliable dictates of conscience. Generally, people can and do act against their conscience from time to time - but not without a severe inner rebuke that costs us our peace and capacity to live with ourselves comfortably. The group aspect seems to work synergistically in breaking this mechanism down by some means.

It is something like this: imagine trying to push a very large object inflated with air underneath the water and keeping it there. Alone, you might just get it under the water - if at all - and then it bobs back up and you are where you were again. However, if several people come to assist in the process, you can keep it under and without much struggle. With enough people taking part, you might even be able to force it the whole way to the bottom.

Thing is, it is still the nature of our conscience to return to the surface - even if it is held at the bottom of the sea floor, so to speak. It does not suddenly become "OK" with whatever it is that is going on - and a severe correction will take place in time. My metaphor is an imperfect one, but it is not entirely off base.

Consider the insane look on Bill Cosby's face - or Jerry Sandusky's face, etc. once they were found out. It is as though *THEY* were finding out at the same time the rest of us did. As though they had been re-sensitized in some way to the horror of what they had done after a long time of having habituated to it. This is another tell-tale sign of a powerful correction taking place. Such an event shatters the people who willfully pervert themselves and act against dharma.
 
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This was linked to before, so I'm assuming you didn't listen to it . . .

But watch this Joe Rogan episode as entertainment:


Or you can listen to the podcast: episode #911 . . .
Thanks. This is actually pretty good.
It takes a Joe Rogan to keep Jones on track and grab him before he takes off with his endless rants.
I've listened to the first hour so far. Dunno if I'll keep up for the remaining 3 though, it's pretty intense. Maybe in installments.
 
@Alex I really think you need to try to put together a strong case that Pizzagate is true. I tend to think it is, but clearly a lot of people don't, and I don't think we should promote this without pretty clear evidence. If you can't do that, it might be best to delete this thread and the accompanying podcast.

David
That's nuts! What is so wrong with discussing it?

It never ceases to amaze me the people that come out of the woodwork to shut any discussion of this issue down. Need proof you've hit a nerve? Watch how many scream for you to shut up, to stop talking about it.
 
Thing is, it is still the nature of our conscience to return to the surface - even if it is held at the bottom of the sea floor, so to speak. It does not suddenly become "OK" with whatever it is that is going on - and a severe correction will take place in time. My metaphor is an imperfect one, but it is not entirely off base.

Consider the insane look on Bill Cosby's face - or Jerry Sandusky's face, etc. once they were found out. It is as though *THEY* were finding out at the same time the rest of us did. As though they had been re-sensitized in some way to the horror of what they had done after a long time of having habituated to it. This is another tell-tale sign of a powerful correction taking place. Such an event shatters the people who willfully pervert themselves and act against dharma.
Philemon, I love so many of your posts and really wish I believed this were true with respect to the "NAMBLA" type or other child sex abuse perpetrators finally being confronted with conscience or a mental correction taking place. Unfortunately, I think the look on their faces (e.g., Sandusky/Cosby) is the surprise of finally being "caught" -- or, when larger "rings" are involved, perhaps the look indicates the horrifying realization that they were the one chosen to be the scapegoat/patsy for a larger group that will remain protected/hidden/denied. But for those who aren't "caught" or who are "caught" but let go with a small reprimand -- like Jeffrey Epstein -- life continues as before. For example, if you've read any of the statements/testimony of some of the young girl victims -- Epstein ruined a lot of (poor) young girls' lives. Many of them have turned to drugs, prostitution, etc. They have been forever scarred by their exploitation by Epstein and his powerful friends. Conscience should have kicked in when he read their statements about what he had done to them, right? It was all there, in black in white -- the horror. Yet if you see where Epstein is now, he's continuing life as usual -- and continues in the company of extremely young women. His tactic -- and the tactic of his attorneys and others similarly accused -- was to blame the victims. I just don't believe his (or others') conscience has kicked in/bubbled to the surface. Maybe someday a severe correction will take place? On his death bed? Not sure. I tend to think some people have truly become their urges, and do not experience a correction, which is perhaps why evil potentially (likely?) exists in the non-material world as well.
 
Good show Alex. I guess I'm in the minority here, but I appreciate you talking about this. No one wants to. It's exactly as you said, bring up the subject at all, you don't even have to say "Pizzagate" and people run for the hills stuffing cotton in their ears lest they hear something they don't want to hear.

It breaks my heart how many people have come forward and talked about the abuse they've suffered at the hands of politicians, celebrities or others in positions of relative power or influence, only to be ignored, ridiculed or dismissed.

There are three, amazing documentaries that just touch the tip of the iceberg of this monstrous evil that lurks. Who Took Johnny Gosh, The Franklin Scandal and An Open Secret.

But there are loads more victims, stories and lives ruined than just portrayed in those three films.

The truth is, pedophilia is a massive problem. And it rises to very top of society.

Has anyone bothered looking into the Dutroux scandal? How about Hastert, Epstein? What about the Presidio? Or the over 400 arrested in California as part of a bust of a massive pedophile and human trafficking ring. Did you see how many children were saved as part of this bust? 28. 28 children, in one ring. But there have been rings busted everywhere.

But hey, let's not talk about it, because it's ugly, it's scary and you might hurt some feelings. It's amazing to me how people care more about the feelings of the alleged perpetrators than the victims. Unbelievable.

Not to say that accusations shouldn't be supported with evidence. But we have to acknowledge that the vast majority of sexual crimes go unpunished because they are notoriously difficult to prove. Notice, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means it cannot be proven in court. If I said I was abused by my cousin when I was 5, what proof could I provide? How could I convince anyone? I couldn't. It would be my word against theirs.

But here's my question, for those who have spoken out as victims against very powerful people, what do they have to gain by this? They're often put through the court of public opinion in which they are often ridiculed or dismissed. They're called loons, opportunists, liars, gold diggers, etc. Never mind the fact that very few pursue any kind of monetary compensation, and even when they do (as with Paul Bonnaci) they will never see a dime. So yeah, how's that for justice? Endure abuse, speak up about what happened to you, proceed to being vilified, called names, have the worst assumed about your character, or just plain ignored. Yep, sounds like a winning situation for them. Is it any wonder that it is that the vast majority of victims never tell anyone?

But by all means, let's worry about the perpetrators. Let's make sure they're treated well and with dignity. Who cares about the victims? No one, because then you'd have to confront the truth. That evil exists. Monsters exist. And that you just might be one of them. Perhaps not explicitly, but implicitly because you refuse to look, refuse to see, refuse to understand and certainly refuse to do anything to stop it.

Evil exists. It exists in the darkest recesses of mans soul. It doesn't even need to exist in a supernatural sense. I see humans bringing copious levels of evil into existence every day. Not the least of which being the fact that so much evil is ignored. As long as it doesn't come knocking on your door, who cares? You have the luxury of deleting the likes of this podcast from your mind. But what if it does come knocking on your door? Will you then ask yourself, why doesn't anyone care?

But, hey, I'm just a loon, a nutcase, because I do care. Because I want to know the truth, no matter how ugly. How can anything change for the better if we aren't willing to face the demons that not only lurk among us, but perhaps within our own hearts?
 
Sorry Alex, but I think you and others just believe this stuff because you want to. None of this would amount to anything in a court of law. But for the sake of argument, wouldn't Trump's participation in Lolita express put him in the same camp if both are true? Why pick on Hillary? BTW, I was for Bernie.
Who wants to believe that children are being raped and murdered? Want? Really? Are you insinuating that Alex, or anyone else who is concerned about this issue, gets off on it? That those who speak out against evil acts are only doing so because they secretly get off on it?

What is your solution? Ignore it, never discuss it?

Unbelievable.
 
Philemon, I love so many of your posts and really wish I believed this were true with respect to the "NAMBLA" type or other child sex abuse perpetrators finally being confronted with conscience or a mental correction taking place. Unfortunately, I think the look on their faces (e.g., Sandusky/Cosby) is the surprise of finally being "caught" -- or, when larger "rings" are involved, perhaps the look indicates the horrifying realization that they were the one chosen to be the scapegoat/patsy for a larger group that will remain protected/hidden/denied. But for those who aren't "caught" or who are "caught" but let go with a small reprimand -- like Jeffrey Epstein -- life continues as before. For example, if you've read any of the statements/testimony of some of the young girl victims -- Epstein ruined a lot of (poor) young girls' lives. Many of them have turned to drugs, prostitution, etc. They have been forever scarred by their exploitation by Epstein and his powerful friends. Conscience should have kicked in when he read their statements about what he had done to them, right? It was all there, in black in white -- the horror. Yet if you see where Epstein is now, he's continuing life as usual -- and continues in the company of extremely young women. His tactic -- and the tactic of his attorneys and others similarly accused -- was to blame the victims. I just don't believe his (or others') conscience has kicked in/bubbled to the surface. Maybe someday a severe correction will take place? On his death bed? Not sure. I tend to think some people have truly become their urges, and do not experience a correction, which is perhaps why evil potentially (likely?) exists in the non-material world as well.
Yes, exactly. It's absolutely heartbreaking what these victims go through. Then they get blamed for their own abuse and the perpetrator just goes along on his merry way.

Anyone who isn't infuriated by that should do a good long meditation about the substance of their being. Really.

This whole issue has me seriously considering going back to school to become a psychologist. Maybe I cannot stop these people, but maybe I can help those who have fallen into their destructive paths. I had always wanted to be a child psychologist, probably because of my own upbringing, but didn't because I didn't think I was strong enough. I think I am now. But I have to get my children through college first, so...
 
That's nuts! What is so wrong with discussing it?

It never ceases to amaze me the people that come out of the woodwork to shut any discussion of this issue down. Need proof you've hit a nerve? Watch how many scream for you to shut up, to stop talking about it.
I agree -- and here's the thing, though I do hesitate to insert myself back into this hot button thread now that I've shared some beers with a few people -- I'd prefer to try to have civilized conversations, and was actually drawn to Skeptiko because I saw so many thoughtful posts. I do apologize to all for my own tone in some of my posts on this thread -- for various reasons, the denial of the existence of systemic child sexual abuse really upsets me.

But I am still struggling to understand the vibe here and some members' strong reactions to anything that goes against the mainstream narrative. On the one hand, it seems to be a forum for proponents/skeptics to discuss metaphysical issues (psi phenomenon, parapsychology, the question of God, nature of evil, etc.) that many people in the mainstream would poo-poo. And in fact, it appears from reading a number of threads now, that the true "skeptics" on this forum are the minority and that many long standing members are open to a metaphysical dimension of our world. Yet, it seems that even those members open-minded enough to consider psi phenom and metaphysical topics are hostile and resistant to discussing so-called real world conspiracy theories that ultimately do touch on the metaphysical (e.g., the nature of good/evil, whether there is a metaphysical component to all the horrid stuff that is going on in the world, etc). And the resistance often takes the form of arrogant, close-minded, derisive, and sometimes even hostile comments that seem precisely designed/intended to simply shut down discussion altogether. Why?

As Philemon pointed out in one of his/her posts above, it's nearly impossible to have a conversation about pedophilia/child trafficking/Pizzagate at all when some members refuse to even consider the information and simply deride/deny it. It truly feels like there's some sort of mind control programming going on, where the conversation MUST. NOT. HAPPEN.

I know some members left this forum because of the deletion of some threads and I can understand that. But I also know that part of the reason some members left was because they didn't like the journey that Alex is currently taking -- i.e., wanting to discuss so-called conspiracy theories and the connection to metaphysical issues. So, since the actual owner of this forum/podcast seems very open to exploring topics such as Pizzagate and other so-called "conspiracy theories" and seems to understand how it is all related to his prior work (NDE science, psi, magick, etc.), why don't members who don't want to go there go play in another sandbox? I don't mean to leave the forum, but why not just peruse and comment in other non-CT threads where you DO have an interest? What is the purpose of dropping in and lobbing insults and ridicule? Why the need to kick sand and shut down conversation?

Ironically, I noticed on the new psiscience quest forum set up by some former Skeptiko members that the "rules" there suggest that those who are truly skeptics actually limit their posts to particular threads so that real conversations can happen by the proponents. In other words, no derision, flat out denials for denial's sake re: metaphysical/psi topics that might otherwise be ridiculed in mainstream circles simply to rile and stop the conversation. I assume this is because the forum is providing a space for people to discuss issues outside of the mainstream materialist box without someone just putting a turd in the punchbowl for the sake of it. So why not give the same respect here? I don't mean to suggest a mere echo chamber -- I think it's perfectly legitimate to question the Pizzagate affair, but the ridicule/derision/name calling, and supporting your denials with posts from mainstream debunker sites simply isn't going to lead to productive discussions, so what's the point?

Anyway, I really hope this can be a forum where there are open minded conversations on a variety of topics that are not completely shut down by those not wishing to discuss those particular topics.
 
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That's nuts! What is so wrong with discussing it?

It never ceases to amaze me the people that come out of the woodwork to shut any discussion of this issue down. Need proof you've hit a nerve? Watch how many scream for you to shut up, to stop talking about it.
Well since I wrote that a lot of people have supplied the evidence that I wanted - see many of my later comments!

The problem is that without a lot of background - supplied by several people here - the story seems like it is just about a few goofy emails. Obviously the media has tried to maintain that picture. I basically felt that if we were going to discuss Pizzagate we needed a pretty solid case - I now think that above discussion with its links provides just that.

David
 
I tend to think some people have truly become their urges, and do not experience a correction, which is perhaps why evil potentially (likely?) exists in the non-material world as well.
I agree with this. On a case by case basis, there are certainly unrepentant folks out there reveling in their lusts - straight through to their dying day. As I said in one of my earlier posts, there is a certain class of people who do seem to be nothing more than their urges. Whether this is from birth or occurs incrementally through the lifespan, I do not know. I suspect it may be something accrued over numerous lifetimes to get the point of being someone like Epstein. But consider the cost. Externally, sure, that man is living the high life - luxuries and resources that no one on this forum can relate to (unless we've got some .01%ers on here). Nonetheless, he is now his urges and is an automaton - slaving away to sate his appetites day and night. And they never abate. He must pursue them mostly in isolation from anyone or anything remotely wholesome and spiritually vivifying.

Yes, it is awful for those who fall into his (or other offenders) clutches. I don't know why this happens. There are no clear cut answers to problems like these - at least none that have been revealed to me. I have a sense that, like the Zoroastrians taught, there are impersonal forces at play acting themselves out through our lives - in body, mind, and spirit. The truly important aspects of our lives are wrapped up in this contest of integration vs disintegration. Being as we do not live in a fully integrated and stable world - but what one might call a "fallen" world - there's no assurance of being insulated by the disintegrated/disintegrating forces at play. Be that as it may, we are not lessened by those disintegrating forces and experiences unless we identify with them.

I once heard an interview with the parent of a sexually abused child. The child had rebounded remarkably from their experience and seemed to remain well adjusted and capable of enjoying life despite what had happened to them. The parent attributed this resilience to having inoculated them prior to it happening by saying something along the lines of, "You know, there are bad people out there who do bad things - and hopefully this will never happen to you - but if someone does a bad thing to you, it does not mean you are bad - it means that they are bad." That has stayed with me, because it does seem that when people are perpetrated against - not just sexually - they internalize a sense of being at fault somehow - of being evil or wrong themselves. They feel guilt and shame and tend to hide what has happened to them for fear of being judged unworthy by others. In psychoanalytic language this process is called projective identification. It's an almost psi-like event in which someone who has repressed something about themselves so strongly actually transfers all that repressed material into another person - who then ends up holding the emotional bag in their place. Borderlines are notorious for this. They often accuse others of being out of control and of reframing others innocent behaviors as evidence of some deep-rooted faultiness in them (the very thing a borderline represses about him/herself). When this persists long enough, the people on the receiving side frequently enough end up acting out the behaviors the borderline as projected onto them and feels that craziness inside that the borderline will not acknowledge. I know I've received any number of projections from people over the years and have sometimes even lost my sense of certainty about who I am on account of the potency of these psychic exchanges. Sadly, abusers are able to project their awfulness - their guilt and shame and blameworthiness - into the innocent.

This is an archetypal thing: Think Jesus being crucified due to the cries of a mob - "Crucify him!" He actually "died for our sins" - the darkness that was projected onto him that we would not own about ourselves.
 
I posted the Hasert article in here, of course it got really quite.....
Yeah, once you look into it even casually, there's pretty much no denying these things are happening. I do think that most people are good people, and that when presented with evidence of what really, for most, is the unthinkable, there's nowhere to put it within your structure of understanding, so there seems to be an almost visceral reaction to get away from it. And I certainly empathize with that. I would love to know that none of this was happening. It's not something anyone decent WANTS to believe. To the contrary. But I cannot confuse what IS truth, with what I want to be truth.
 
I have a sense that, like the Zoroastrians taught, there are impersonal forces at play acting themselves out through our lives - in body, mind, and spirit. The truly important aspects of our lives are wrapped up in this contest of integration vs disintegration. Being as we do not live in a fully integrated and stable world - but what one might call a "fallen" world - there's no assurance of being insulated by the disintegrated/disintegrating forces at play.
Or I would suggest that rather than impersonal, they are quite personal and intentional, albeit non-physical.
 
Good show Alex. I guess I'm in the minority here, but I appreciate you talking about this. No one wants to. It's exactly as you said, bring up the subject at all, you don't even have to say "Pizzagate" and people run for the hills stuffing cotton in their ears lest they hear something they don't want to hear.

It breaks my heart how many people have come forward and talked about the abuse they've suffered at the hands of politicians, celebrities or others in positions of relative power or influence, only to be ignored, ridiculed or dismissed.

There are three, amazing documentaries that just touch the tip of the iceberg of this monstrous evil that lurks. Who Took Johnny Gosh, The Franklin Scandal and An Open Secret.

But there are loads more victims, stories and lives ruined than just portrayed in those three films.

The truth is, pedophilia is a massive problem. And it rises to very top of society.

Has anyone bothered looking into the Dutroux scandal? How about Hastert, Epstein? What about the Presidio? Or the over 400 arrested in California as part of a bust of a massive pedophile and human trafficking ring. Did you see how many children were saved as part of this bust? 28. 28 children, in one ring. But there have been rings busted everywhere.

But hey, let's not talk about it, because it's ugly, it's scary and you might hurt some feelings. It's amazing to me how people care more about the feelings of the alleged perpetrators than the victims. Unbelievable.

Not to say that accusations shouldn't be supported with evidence. But we have to acknowledge that the vast majority of sexual crimes go unpunished because they are notoriously difficult to prove. Notice, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means it cannot be proven in court. If I said I was abused by my cousin when I was 5, what proof could I provide? How could I convince anyone? I couldn't. It would be my word against theirs.

But here's my question, for those who have spoken out as victims against very powerful people, what do they have to gain by this? They're often put through the court of public opinion in which they are often ridiculed or dismissed. They're called loons, opportunists, liars, gold diggers, etc. Never mind the fact that very few pursue any kind of monetary compensation, and even when they do (as with Paul Bonnaci) they will never see a dime. So yeah, how's that for justice? Endure abuse, speak up about what happened to you, proceed to being vilified, called names, have the worst assumed about your character, or just plain ignored. Yep, sounds like a winning situation for them. Is it any wonder that it is that the vast majority of victims never tell anyone?

But by all means, let's worry about the perpetrators. Let's make sure they're treated well and with dignity. Who cares about the victims? No one, because then you'd have to confront the truth. That evil exists. Monsters exist. And that you just might be one of them. Perhaps not explicitly, but implicitly because you refuse to look, refuse to see, refuse to understand and certainly refuse to do anything to stop it.

Evil exists. It exists in the darkest recesses of mans soul. It doesn't even need to exist in a supernatural sense. I see humans bringing copious levels of evil into existence every day. Not the least of which being the fact that so much evil is ignored. As long as it doesn't come knocking on your door, who cares? You have the luxury of deleting the likes of this podcast from your mind. But what if it does come knocking on your door? Will you then ask yourself, why doesn't anyone care?

But, hey, I'm just a loon, a nutcase, because I do care. Because I want to know the truth, no matter how ugly. How can anything change for the better if we aren't willing to face the demons that not only lurk among us, but perhaps within our own hearts?
Yes. Just absolutely yes to everything you said here. And I share your outrage, sadness, incomprehension, and disgust.
 
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