Pizzagate. Plus, Ex-FBI Undercover Agent Bob Hamer |357|

[Philemon]

And the rudeness was directed towards Philemon, who took the time to write some really thoughtful commentary. Kind of funny when someone asks someone to write shorter posts so they can understand them instead of appreciating the longer one that took some actual thoughtfulness!

As I wasn't sure what the impulse was behind that post, I didn't bother to comment. I didn't want it to detract from the conversation related to this thread. Based on another, later comment from another member I wondered if the whole thing was just a sort of commentary on the exodus that was sorta/kinda seemingly taking place and a prod to get me off of here and go talk more there. I try to be generous in my interpretations. Please don't ban anyone on account of any concern about me being offended.

I've been listening to this podcast since very early on in its lifespan, probably within the first few episodes released. I remember downloading the mp3s and burning it onto CDs - back in '07 or '08 already. Sometimes I'd have to actually convert the mp3 to wav and then cut it in half and then burn that on two different CDs. I posted a lot more back in the old forum prior to this one. I'll probably hang around as long as Alex is doing this, regardless of wherever it goes. Must have a common mental trajectory. I just don't really have any objections to this episode or the thread (though I must admit, the guest had nothing to say about Pizzagate itself and I acknowledge that discussing unrelated scandals which are founded does not count as evidence for Pizzagate).

 

[Vault313]

Normally I'd agree -- but I think Alit's non-sequitur "penis" joke was a little classless, particularly in a thread about pedophilia and human trafficking, and I think David B made the right choice to say something. (the actual post seems to have been deleted (or I can't find it) but is referenced by others quoting it at #302 and #303). And the rudeness was directed towards Philemon, who took the time to write some really thoughtful commentary. Kind of funny when someone asks someone to write shorter posts so they can understand them instead of appreciating the longer one that took some actual thoughtfulness!

I'm not a "snowflake" (as someone who seems to be weirdly cyberstalking me on this site has accused me of), but I do think that these juvenile one-liners and derisive comments bring down the quality of this forum. There are just so many other places one can go online if the goal is simply to rile or offend others or be the turds in the punch bowl of a legitimate discussion - maybe try Alex Jones' forum (if you are of that persuasion) or Salon.com (if you lean left or want to stoke some liberal fires)?

Of course I can dish it out too and will respond with some snark if pushed too far, but really, what's the point of having such a great forum here if all you want to do is agitate and shut down discussion?

Or maybe my mind will go all CT (as it is wont to do) and think that this is intentional agent provocateur-ing to bring down the forum? ;)

I see. I never saw the actual post that was removed.

 

[Vault313]

.

Here's an article about Pizzagate and pedo rings in general that is offered on the woo/spirituality site: Collective Evolution that touches on pedophilia in politics and in H-wood (I don't read CE and can't say whether or not it has a right/left leaning, so I can already anticipate the knee-jerk objections/rejections/denials of what it has to say by the debunkers now). It's been a while since I've been in full PG research mode, so I don't know whether all aspects of this article can be linked back to a direct source or further verified or not. I also agree that Voat's executive summary is a better place to start for those truly interested in following the data points, etc, but the article does try to summarize the PG/other pedo associations being discussed elsewhere in more detail for those who don't want to go beyond a surface consideration.

http://www.collective-evolution.com...e-sex-rings-involving-government-pop-culture/

The article also suggests that there is something rotten in Hollywood and in high-level political circles. And of course there are some excellent documentaries out there trying to expose these darker aspects of reality (e.g, Amy Berg's excellent (and immediately buried) documentary, An Open Secret, the Franklin Affair documentary, the Keepers, I am Jane Doe, etc.).

I just want you to know Vault, I care too. There are a lot of people who do (some even on this forum). It's hard to keep this conversation going with so much push-back though.

But maybe it would have been better for Alex not to have inserted the first part of this show with the PG controversy -- especially since the guest didn't touch on it at all. The NAMBLA stuff is horrific enough on its own and would have created far less divisiveness. Of course, it probably wouldn't have spawned 19 pages of posts either.

I forgot about The Keepers. Yes, excellent series, fascinating and heartbreaking at the same time.

 

[Vault313]

.

Here's an article about Pizzagate and pedo rings in general that is offered on the woo/spirituality site: Collective Evolution that touches on pedophilia in politics and in H-wood (I don't read CE and can't say whether or not it has a right/left leaning, so I can already anticipate the knee-jerk objections/rejections/denials of what it has to say by the debunkers now). It's been a while since I've been in full PG research mode, so I don't know whether all aspects of this article can be linked back to a direct source or further verified or not. I also agree that Voat's executive summary is a better place to start for those truly interested in following the data points, etc, but the article does try to summarize the PG/other pedo associations being discussed elsewhere in more detail for those who don't want to go beyond a surface consideration.

http://www.collective-evolution.com...e-sex-rings-involving-government-pop-culture/

The article also suggests that there is something rotten in Hollywood and in high-level political circles. And of course there are some excellent documentaries out there trying to expose these darker aspects of reality (e.g, Amy Berg's excellent (and immediately buried) documentary, An Open Secret, the Franklin Affair documentary, the Keepers, I am Jane Doe, etc.).

I just want you to know Vault, I care too. There are a lot of people who do (some even on this forum). It's hard to keep this conversation going with so much push-back though.

But maybe it would have been better for Alex not to have inserted the first part of this show with the PG controversy -- especially since the guest didn't touch on it at all. The NAMBLA stuff is horrific enough on its own and would have created far less divisiveness. Of course, it probably wouldn't have spawned 19 pages of posts either.

I know there are people out there that care, and I could see that you clearly are one that does.

Like I said above, I think most people just don't want to deal with it because, what can you do? There is an inherent feeling of helplessness attached to it all. For some, I guess doing their best to forget and move on is the only way to cope. But the old saying "all evil requires is that good men do nothing." Has merit. But with this it's like, what can we do?

And maybe others just don't believe it, and I guess that's their prerogative. I just ask that people actually look through the evidence first, then decide. If they still don't think the claims have merit, so be it.
It just drive me nuts when people refute without looking at the evidence. This "there's nothing there so why bother" attitude is frustrating.

 

[malf]

Ok. A dearly beloved ex member, cryptically a mixed up petal, has asked me to post this. It's a very deep dive but the subject is clearly worth the effort right?

https://justpaste.it/18t8f

 

[Vault313]

As I wasn't sure what the impulse was behind that post, I didn't bother to comment. I didn't want it to detract from the conversation related to this thread. Based on another, later comment from another member I wondered if the whole thing was just a sort of commentary on the exodus that was sorta/kinda seemingly taking place and a prod to get me off of here and go talk more there. I try to be generous in my interpretations. Please don't ban anyone on account of any concern about me being offended.

I've been listening to this podcast since very early on in its lifespan, probably within the first few episodes released. I remember downloading the mp3s and burning it onto CDs - back in '07 or '08 already. Sometimes I'd have to actually convert the mp3 to wav and then cut it in half and then burn that on two different CDs. I posted a lot more back in the old forum prior to this one. I'll probably hang around as long as Alex is doing this, regardless of wherever it goes. Must have a common mental trajectory. I just don't really have any objections to this episode or the thread (though I must admit, the guest had nothing to say about Pizzagate itself and I acknowledge that discussing unrelated scandals which are founded does not count as evidence for Pizzagate).

I think Alex's trajectory is actually a fairly common one. It seems it has something to do with questioning mainstream dogma, it seems it inevitably leads to conspiracy.

The way I see it is, reality as far as we can discern, is very complicated. WE are complicated creatures. All too often we don't understand our own motivations and then add to that, that we are naturally curious and questioning creatures. We are the only animals on earth, that we know of, that question the nature of our existence. We struggle to understand the world around us, and as we grow from children, we have this worldview that is partially constructed for us. When something comes along to rip a key component of that view apart, I think it naturally leads to questioning everything.

But, as I said, life is complicated. Once your worldview has been dismantled, it can be very difficult to construct a new one. Plus in an age where information is available in quality and quantities never before imagined, it can be a lot to take in.

I think Alex is staying true to his original goals here, which was to follow wherever the information, or "data", leads.

I cannot fault him for it. I just appreciate that he's taken us along for the journey. This show and forum has changed the way I see the world dramatically. And I, for one, am grateful.

 

[AryaS]

I know there are people out there that care, and I could see that you clearly are one that does.

Like I said above, I think most people just don't want to deal with it because, what can you do? There is an inherent feeling of helplessness attached to it all. For some, I guess doing their best to forget and move on is the only way to cope. But the old saying "all evil requires is that good men do nothing." Has merit. But with this it's like, what can we do?

And maybe others just don't believe it, and I guess that's their prerogative. I just ask that people actually look through the evidence first, then decide. If they still don't think the claims have merit, so be it.
It just drive me nuts when people refute without looking at the evidence. This "there's nothing there so why bother" attitude is frustrating.

Totally agree. Interestingly, I had almost the same reaction from my own husband as you described earlier with yours: "Why do you always have to go looking at this stuff?" It's not that he doesn't believe these things happen and have happened, but he doesn't want to "go there" because he feels like we (I) can't do anything about it anyway -- so why get all worked up about it? But I too have a deep curiosity and once I start pulling on a string, I basically have to completely unravel the whole sweater (if I can). As for what we can do, I think exposure is a good start -- and trying to get through to some people who are willing to be persuaded at least past the "condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" phase. I figure if enough people are willing to acknowledge that this stuff actually happens, more people will be on alert for the signs of it happening -- and will be able to stop it in some instances.

 

[AryaS]

Must have a common mental trajectory. I just don't really have any objections to this episode or the thread (though I must admit, the guest had nothing to say about Pizzagate itself and I acknowledge that discussing unrelated scandals which are founded does not count as evidence for Pizzagate).

I guess I share that same mental trajectory. ;)

And I agree that unrelated scandals don't count as evidence for Pizzagate, other than as "evidence" that there is historical precedent for such rings/ritual abuse for those who flat out deny that these things can and do and have happened.

 

[iPsoFacTo]

.
There are a lot of people who do (some even on this forum). It's hard to keep this conversation going with so much push-back though.

If I read this right, what is it you expect? This is a forum where people are going to have differing opinions. However I for one certainly wouldn't object if someone would start a thread such as, 'Pizzagate: Supporting Evidence Discussion Only Please.'.... or something to that effect.

Also I kinda wanna apologize/not apologize for the fact that it is in my nature not to take the whole internet forums thing so seriously and post all the time like I got a pole up my a**.
Yin/Yang.. post serious/post funny .I am snarky. I use sarcasm. Some people love sarcasm. Some people absolutely loath it. What can ya do.
And I do also enjoy all the shared 'arcana' posted here by the members. There's a lot of deep s*** you guys are into and I appreciate it all whether I agree with it or not

 

[Reece]

Watch till at least 2:30 to hear about the banking elite's child sacrifices.

 

[iPsoFacTo]

Watch till at least 2:30 to hear about the banking elite's child sacrifices.

Sounds intriguing. Has any law enforcement agencies and/or people in pertinent political office (those not part of the cabal of course) taken heed of what
this person is saying? Not saying this by way of negating him. I'd be hoping for it being true because then it'd be something concrete to hang my hat on.finally.

I did skim through about maybe 5 pages before his name peters out and all the sites about this all seem to be, well, ya know.... I was really hoping to see some sites I'd normally recognize as, well..'legit' news services. I say that because for better or worse, that's where his story would reach mainstream attention, and grab peoples attention then perhaps snowball from there into action being taken.

But if his story remains in the domain of bloggers and niche 'news' sites then nothing will become of it

 

[Laird]

Just want to put this out there, as another new user whose post I liked earlier in this thread did. Metaphysical evil is real. I experience it regularly. Demonic beings, and potentially a supreme evil being going by a name like Satan or Lucifer, exist and can communicate with and influence "ordinary" human beings. I have been communicated to verbally by such a being, and have been, at times, influenced by metaphysical evil to the point of paralysis. So, when various posters to this thread speculate that paedophiles - whom we know exist - are being driven by evil spirits (demons), my reaction is "That's entirely possible - plausible even". And when various folk talk about ritual initiations by the powerful into secret societies, or even into fame and fortune through "contracts with the Devil", I say: that's certainly possible, and fits with my own experiences.

Whether or not "Pizzagate" is what it is claimed to be (and I see evidence that it might be), there is no doubt that metaphysical evil is rampant in our reality. "The greatest trick the Devil ever performed was to convince the world that he didn't exist". Truth.

 

[iPsoFacTo]

Just want to put this out there, as another new user whose post I liked earlier in this thread did. Metaphysical evil is real. I experience it regularly. Demonic beings, and potentially a supreme evil being going by a name like Satan or Lucifer, exist and can communicate with and influence "ordinary" human beings. I have been communicated to verbally by such a being, and have been, at times, influenced by metaphysical evil to the point of paralysis. So, when various posters to this thread speculate that paedophiles - whom we know exist - are being driven by evil spirits (demons), my reaction is "That's entirely possible - plausible even". And when various folk talk about ritual initiations by the powerful into secret societies, or even into fame and fortune through "contracts with the Devil", I say: that's certainly possible, and fits with my own experiences.

Whether or not "Pizzagate" is what it is claimed to be (and I see evidence that it might be), there is no doubt that metaphysical evil is rampant in our reality. "The greatest trick the Devil ever performed was to convince the world that he didn't exist". Truth.

I pretty much side on the bible being all re-hashed/recycled mythology and other storytelling. IOW, pure baloney as a literal word from God thing. As I heard someone say on a tv program recently....the bible as we know it is an interpretation of an interpretation of and interpretation of an interpretation, etc. I also understand that throughout history, that once christianity....aka, 'the church' was established... all kinds of censoring of texts, re-interpretations to suit the church's spiritual and political agendas, plus the creation and evolution over the centuries of the evil entity, 'satan' and all its sundry names took place.

Again, I'm not 'deep' into bible theory or history but I glean things from various authorities and scholars that are or is their life career. Therfore, if what I'm saying is
correct in how I understand it, then where does this thing called evil stem from?

To make it even worse, I do believe in ghosts, spirits, hauntings, some form of life after death, the paranormal.....whatever you want to call it. I also believe that forms of so called possession can, and have, taken place.

Now the contradiction here is that, otoh, satan, etc, as we know it today is pretty much all made up. Yet, this 'entity' apparently shows up in every culture throughout the world.
So how do I reconcile this? Welp, I tend to go along with the hypothesis that we humans actually manifest much of this stuff based on our collective beliefs, ie, the collective unconscious, as it were.

 

[D.R.Alit]

I pretty much side on the bible being all re-hashed/recycled mythology and other storytelling. IOW, pure baloney as a literal word from a god thing. As I heard someone say on a tv program recently....the bible as we know it is an interpretation of an interpretation of and interpretation of an interpretation, etc. I also understand that throughout history, that once christianity....aka, 'the church' was established... all kinds of censoring of texts, re-interpretations to suit the church's spiritual and political agendas, plus the creation and evolution over the centuries of the evil entity, 'satan' and all its sundry names took place.

Again, I'm not 'deep' into bible theory or history but I glean things from various authorities and scholars that are or is their life career. Therfore, if what I'm saying is
correct in how I understand it, then where does this thing called evil stem from?

To make it even worse, I do believe in ghosts, spirits, hauntings, some form of life after death, the paranormal.....whatever you want to call it. I also believe that forms of so called possession can, and have, taken place.

Now the contradiction here is that, otoh, satan, etc, as we know it today is pretty much all made up. Yet, this 'entity' apparently shows up in every culture throughout the world.
So how do I reconcile this? Welp, I tend to go along with the hypothesis that we humans actually manifest much of this stuff based on our collective beliefs, ie, the collective unconscious, as it were.

Your's is quite a popular view but it is incorrect in my opinion and that of a lot of others. When you actually research the Bible it turns out that the mythicist POV is fallacious completely. Satan wasn't inserted into the text by the Church at a later date as the gospels have been dated to as early as the 60's AD. The Old Testament certainly predates the very existence of the Christian Church and there are references to Satan in that. The idea that the church changed and moulded the texts for politcal reasons is false. Say, the council of Nicea and the council of Constantinople. I suspect you have subconsciously taken on board the idea that reincarnation was expunged at one of those councils, which is a popular view but wholly false.

Satan shows up in every ancient religion as the serpent. And as you know, the serpent trcked Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis. However, the difference between the Bible and every other ancient religion is that the latter one worships the serpent and the Bible sees it as evil.

 

[D.R.Alit]

I made reference in an earlier post to a penis not out of bad taste with regard to the subject of this thread but merely as a silly joke abotu the fact that I don't have an avatar picture. If I offended anybody I apologise.

 

[iPsoFacTo]

Your's is quite a popular view but it is incorrect in my opinion and that of a lot of others. When you actually research the Bible it turns out that the mythicist POV is fallacious completely..

I hear you and respect your belief. However, and as I've made a point of saying a number of times in this forum, the ugly head of confirmation bias rears up over these kinds of topics. :)
Because, when you, as in the collective 'you', say something like, 'if you actually do the research'.... Well, there are probably as many scholars and researchers, if not more, who have made bible history their life's work that come to the complete opposite conclusions than yours.

Hell, (pardon the pun, haha) I understand that even some scholars that DO belong to the church and its teachings will say much of the bible's baloney. However, where their beliefs do lie, in my understanding of what some said, is in what the ideology has now become as it has evolved/ become manifested in modern times.... that of a loving God...a God of peace and compassion.... that of the ideals of the faith, and not some slavish attachment to some old book.

 

[D.R.Alit]

I hear you and respect your belief. However, and as I've made a point of saying a number of times in this forum, the ugly head of confirmation bias rears up over these kinds of topics. :)
Because, when you, as in the collective 'you', say something like, 'if you actually do the research'.... Well, there are probably as many scholars and researchers, if not more, who have made bible history their life's work that come to the complete opposite results than yours.

Hell, (pardon the pun, haha) I understand that even some scholars that DO belong to the church and its teachings will say much of the bible's baloney. However, where their beliefs do lie, in my understanding of what some said, is about the ideology and how it has evolved/ become manifested in modern times.... that of a loving God...a God of peace and compassion.

I was quite careful to word it like I did above as obviously there are many people that come to different conclusions. As per the mythicist view, my understanding is that it is such a tiny minority of Biblical scholars that hold to it as to make it almost superfluous. Robert M Price is a funny/nice bloke, but I just think he is wrong. He is so fringe you wouldn't believe it. He has a really great sense of humour though, and I think his book about the New Age is brilliant.

The Bible does depict God as a God of love and compassion. It's true that there are passages, especially in the OT, that shows a God that seems to kill. But when it is put into context as a whole, you see that the reason why God eliminates people like the Cannanites is because those people were so abominably despicable that whatever it was they were doing was so evil it had to be dealt with. There is some mention of the kind of things they were doing and one of them was child sacrifices.

I am not a fundamentalist or think that the Bible is inerrant. I know lots of people subscribe to that view who hold views similiar to my own. I wouldn't even have these views about the Bible at all if it wasn't for some experiences I had personally of Christ. I didn't seek Christ, Christ sought me and gave me some experiences, some visions, which I knew was true. Previous to this I had been a meditator, meditating for 15 years. Somehow I got free of that through the grace of God. But there is evil out there.

 

[Philemon]

a supreme evil being going by a name like Satan or Lucifer, exist and can communicate with and influence "ordinary" human beings

"The greatest trick the Devil ever performed was to convince the world that he didn't exist". Truth.

I see that some other responses have sprung up since I began to formulate a response to this... but I want to throw in my two cents anyway.

My view is not far from iPsoFacTo's. How Satan is presented changes throughout the bible. Further, much of our cultural mythology about what or who Satan is actually has more of an impact on our collective imagination than what the bible has to say on the matter, itself. This material is frequently read back into the bible: "Oh, Satan - yeah, I know about that guy! He gave Robert Johnson the ability to play the blues! Looks like he's been up to the same tricks ever since he tried to tempt Jesus to trade spiritual authority and power for temporal authority and power!" But, then you go back to Job. Satan is there, too. However, God is actually engaged in some gambling with Satan - not at all the same kind of rejecting stance Jesus takes toward Satan. So, what or who is he? Other passages are also at odds with one another. In my view, Satan is the force that draws one's efforts and concerns into the world of matter - the horizontal - and away from the transcendent world, the vertical dimension of existence. This can truly be experienced as the presence of evil - or the total absence of good - if you descend down far enough. It can cause people to do horrible things and to be filled with darkness. I don't believe my view lessens the reality of Satan - but it does paint him in a different light that offers nuance and, to me, greater understanding.

Also, should one accept the more folksy, "traditional" (is it really traditional if it has changed over and over and over through time?) view of Satan, where does that leave a person with regard to purely academic bible scholarship (that is to say, scholarship not done by motivated believers?). I cannot take the bible as infallible, divinely inspired truth as I did when I was a child because of all the things I've learned about it over the years (a conversation much too long for me to have just now). The whole thing has fallen apart for me as a basis for a worldview because I was originally taught "Take it or leave it! It's all true or it's all false!" And, well, it's not what my Sunday school teachers told me it was. And, now that I am an adult, I see how uneducated and ignorant many of those adults were who I thought were so infallible as a child.

For those embracing the folksy view - I guess you are left having to take the whole shebang. All of us in disagreement are just duped by Satan and bound for hell - and perhaps agents of the devil himself since we are championing an opposing view. There is nothing to learn because you already have the "inside scoop" about all of reality - life is just an experience given by God to test people and see if they'll embrace the right beliefs that will be like the golden ticket to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory in the sky. For those who don't embrace the right beliefs, oh well, they were all evil anyway and deserve to be tortured in hellfire for all eternity!

There are still some remnants of this belief system deeply buried in my reptilian brainstem somewhere, because admittedly, I do sometimes feel a surge of fear about "being wrong" about this stuff - but that's because they got to me as a child and put all this shit in my head before I could even think. The better part of me says that, if the above were true, it reduces God and all of reality to absurdity. It reduces all the rich inner experiences and insights that a person can have to irrelevancies. There's just a big Monarch out there duking it out with some terrifying rebel and everything else is just grist for the mill. That worldview is hermetically sealed. It does not avail itself to reason. It starts off with already knowing the truth - or at least what is most important to know - and believing that anything to the contrary is in actuality just more evidence for the worldview - since contrary thinking is evil, and evil is evidence for Satan, and Satan is evidence for God, and that just proves it all right and back to square one again. I don't see the value in walking down that road.

Anyway, is there objective evil? Yeah, I think so. But does it come in the form of a horned man with a pitchfork who exchanges temporal favors in exchange for eternal torture? If so, we're just living in some Weirdo's comic book reality. I can't sign onto that - and it doesn't jibe with my experience. It also doesn't jibe with the best information we have on the matter.

Like I said, just my two cents.

 

[iPsoFacTo]

I didn't seek Christ, Christ sought me and gave me some experiences, some visions, which I knew was true.

Off on a tangent... have you or any else ever read a book entitled, "The Miracle Detective" by Randall Sullivan? I couldn't put it down.

Point being...'visions'... be they personal or collective... as in the case of the book, manifestations of the virgin Mary.

Here's the thing. People of faith take the visions of Mary at face value. However, there is in fact the possibility that these manifestations are not what they
appear to be, but rather a facade.... a placation to human belief systems.... a manipulation...by some other force or agency.

 

[D.R.Alit]

Off on a tangent... have you or any else ever read a book entitled, "The Miracle Detective" by Randall Sullivan? I couldn't put it down.

Point being...'visions'... be they personal or collective... as in the case of the book, manifestations of the virgin Mary.

Here's the thing. People of faith take the visions of Mary at face value. However, there is in fact the possibility that these manifestations are not what they
appear to be, but rather a facade.... a placation to human belief systems.... a manipulation...by some other force or agency.

I haven't read that book. But it seems to me that your contention is the calling into question of personal experiences that have a supernatural quality to them. There are certain things that can be checked that line up with the Biblical text in terms of the fruits of the experience. As far as the visions of Mary go, they are usually demonic in origin. If not, all of them. And I don't know if you mean to distinguish between an apparition of Mary and a vision. Apparitions of Mary are clearly demonic manifestations as the messages given by this thing do not line up with the Bible text.

If someone is having a vision of an entity the Bible says to test the spirits. It is in the Epistles of the NT, I don't know the reference off the top of my head. I never had a vision of any entity.