Pizzagate. Plus, Ex-FBI Undercover Agent Bob Hamer |357|

I see that some other responses have sprung up since I began to formulate a response to this... but I want to throw in my two cents anyway.

My view is not far from iPsoFacTo's. How Satan is presented changes throughout the bible. Further, much of our cultural mythology about what or who Satan is actually has more of an impact on our collective imagination than what the bible has to say on the matter, itself. This material is frequently read back into the bible: "Oh, Satan - yeah, I know about that guy! He gave Robert Johnson the ability to play the blues! Looks like he's been up to the same tricks ever since he tried to tempt Jesus to trade spiritual authority and power for temporal authority and power!" But, then you go back to Job. Satan is there, too. However, God is actually engaged in some gambling with Satan - not at all the same kind of rejecting stance Jesus takes toward Satan. So, what or who is he? Other passages are also at odds with one another. In my view, Satan is the force that draws one's efforts and concerns into the world of matter - the horizontal - and away from the transcendent world, the vertical dimension of existence. This can truly be experienced as the presence of evil - or the total absence of good - if you descend down far enough. It can cause people to do horrible things and to be filled with darkness. I don't believe my view lessens the reality of Satan - but it does paint him in a different light that offers nuance and, to me, greater understanding.

Also, should one accept the more folksy, "traditional" (is it really traditional if it has changed over and over and over through time?) view of Satan, where does that leave a person with regard to purely academic bible scholarship (that is to say, scholarship not done by motivated believers?). I cannot take the bible as infallible, divinely inspired truth as I did when I was a child because of all the things I've learned about it over the years (a conversation much too long for me to have just now). The whole thing has fallen apart for me as a basis for a worldview because I was originally taught "Take it or leave it! It's all true or it's all false!" And, well, it's not what my Sunday school teachers told me it was. And, now that I am an adult, I see how uneducated and ignorant many of those adults were who I thought were so infallible as a child.

For those embracing the folksy view - I guess you are left having to take the whole shebang. All of us in disagreement are just duped by Satan and bound for hell - and perhaps agents of the devil himself since we are championing an opposing view. There is nothing to learn because you already have the "inside scoop" about all of reality - life is just an experience given by God to test people and see if they'll embrace the right beliefs that will be like the golden ticket to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory in the sky. For those who don't embrace the right beliefs, oh well, they were all evil anyway and deserve to be tortured in hellfire for all eternity!

There are still some remnants of this belief system deeply buried in my reptilian brainstem somewhere, because admittedly, I do sometimes feel a surge of fear about "being wrong" about this stuff - but that's because they got to me as a child and put all this shit in my head before I could even think. The better part of me says that, if the above were true, it reduces God and all of reality to absurdity. It reduces all the rich inner experiences and insights that a person can have to irrelevancies. There's just a big Monarch out there duking it out with some terrifying rebel and everything else is just grist for the mill. That worldview is hermetically sealed. It does not avail itself to reason. It starts off with already knowing the truth - or at least what is most important to know - and believing that anything to the contrary is in actuality just more evidence for the worldview - since contrary thinking is evil, and evil is evidence for Satan, and Satan is evidence for God, and that just proves it all right and back to square one again. I don't see the value in walking down that road.

Anyway, is there objective evil? Yeah, I think so. But does it come in the form of a horned man with a pitchfork who exchanges temporal favors in exchange for eternal torture? If so, we're just living in some Weirdo's comic book reality. I can't sign onto that - and it doesn't jibe with my experience. It also doesn't jibe with the best information we have on the matter.

Like I said, just my two cents.

Satan in the Bible is not the Satan you have charicatured here. Nowhere does it mention anything about horned men with pitchforks. That is a modern cultural overlay. Lots of people are brought up in Sunday Schools and countless other Christian derivative institutions and don't come to the conclusions you have here.

As for eternal hell, that isn't something I personally believe in either.
 
I haven't read that book. But it seems to me that your contention is the calling into question of personal experiences that have a supernatural quality to them. There are certain things that can be checked that line up with the Biblical text in terms of the fruits of the experience. As far as the visions of Mary go, they are usually demonic in origin. If not, all of them. And I don't know if you mean to distinguish between an apparition of Mary and a vision. Apparitions of Mary are clearly demonic manifestations as the messages given by this thing do not line up with the Bible text.

If someone is having a vision of an entity the Bible says to test the spirits. It is in the Epistles of the NT, I don't know the reference off the top of my head. I never had a vision of any entity.

Don't know how to respond except that i do believe that in your belief, what you say is true. :)
 
It is my belief if I were a solipsist. (hey, that sounds like the chorus of a song!) Tis my belief, If It'were solipsist.

I've actually met some people that have claimed they have no beliefs...
 
Satan in the Bible is not the Satan you have charicatured here. Nowhere does it mention anything about horned men with pitchforks. That is a modern cultural overlay. Lots of people are brought up in Sunday Schools and countless other Christian derivative institutions and don't come to the conclusions you have here.

Not sure if you read my entire post as I outright said that part of what I was discussing was a caricature. I also laid out, alongside that, some of the biblical view of Satan.

Whether or not Satan comes with horns in the shape of a man, what I said about how he works IS frequently part of what is presented about who/what Satan is/does.
 
It is my belief if I were a solipsist. (hey, that sounds like the chorus of a song!) Tis my belief, If It'were solipsist.

I've actually met some people that have claimed they have no beliefs...

I confess I'm kinda one of them. As far as my 'beliefs' go, they're fungible. I'm pretty much agnostic in my beliefs. I can change whenever any evidence presented passes my own particular muster.
I realize agnostics are sometimes denigrated as fence sitters. However, I'd rather have evidence sway my positions than merely having to take a side even if totally wrong. I'd actually call that stance being myopic, tunnel visioned, close minded, etc etc

I don't think any human is even capable of having no beliefs in the literal sense. It's damn impossible really. The brain demands to hold beliefs, no matter how whacked, as it is the only way for a person to make some sense of the world for themselves. One can be anywhere from being tied in with the general popular consensus of reality,as most people are, or all the way and in between, to bonkers straight jacketed in a rubber room, but its all 'beliefs'.
 
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I like your stream of consciousness typing. You took the words right out of my brain. It's very well put. Cheers

If that's to me, thanks. :)

Yeah, I can't help but write mostly with all '.........'s' between phrases. To any moment of thought or response to questions/topics immediately my brain starts throwing up tangents fast and furiously, lol.
Maybe there's drugs for that, lol
 
Just a thought.

God must have loved Satan at some point before it all went funkydeedoo. Presumably God still loves this cherub, this master piper, but just feels sorry for him. Perhaps God really doesn't like him. Or something along those lines. But according to the Bible, Satan is going to be destroyed in the lake of fire at some point in the future. Otherwise, perhaps surfing it for a very long time (Bill Hicks RIP). Therefore, free will and annihilation could go together, but don't quite seem to in his case.
 
Just a thought.

God must have loved Satan at some point before it all went funkydeedoo. Presumably God still loves this cherub, this master piper, but just feels sorry for him. Perhaps God really doesn't like him. Or something along those lines. But according to the Bible, Satan is going to be destroyed in the lake of fire at some point in the future. Otherwise, perhaps surfing it for a very long time (Bill Hicks RIP). Therefore, free will and annihilation could go together, but don't quite seem to in his case.

Yeah, in my limited bible knowledge, I do get the distinct impression that God & Satan are pretty much in cahoots with each other and enjoy messing with humans. Good cop / bad cop perhaps? lol
 
It's like the book of Job. God uses Satan. Satan thinks he has free will but in reality he is just a puppet doing the bidding of Jehovah. On the other hand...
 
Just want to put this out there, as another new user whose post I liked earlier in this thread did. Metaphysical evil is real. I experience it regularly. Demonic beings, and potentially a supreme evil being going by a name like Satan or Lucifer, exist and can communicate with and influence "ordinary" human beings. I have been communicated to verbally by such a being, and have been, at times, influenced by metaphysical evil to the point of paralysis. So, when various posters to this thread speculate that paedophiles - whom we know exist - are being driven by evil spirits (demons), my reaction is "That's entirely possible - plausible even". And when various folk talk about ritual initiations by the powerful into secret societies, or even into fame and fortune through "contracts with the Devil", I say: that's certainly possible, and fits with my own experiences.

Whether or not "Pizzagate" is what it is claimed to be (and I see evidence that it might be), there is no doubt that metaphysical evil is rampant in our reality. "The greatest trick the Devil ever performed was to convince the world that he didn't exist". Truth.

Thanks for sharing Laird. Would you be willing to share/further elaborate (or have you already somewhere else on this forum) on your personal experiences with metaphysical evil? I would love to hear more, though I understand it may be too painful and personal.

I shared my sort of opposite metaphysical experience with "Jesus" on the Beverly Gilmore thread, mainly b/c Beverly was so convinced that the Being she experienced was in fact Jesus, and not just some other entity masquerading as Jesus for her own understanding/comfort. Contrary to Beverly's firm belief, in my own later reflection of my own experience, even though at the time I believed it was "Jesus" (although it was only a light/force and not a formed being), I have come to the conclusion that it was just as likely some other entity/being/force -- or a figment of my own imagination -- as it was actually "Jesus." See:

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threa...w-insight-about-consciousness-350.3839/page-6

(my post is at #107).

Like some other posters (and I think yourself) I don't believe in the literal God/Satan of the Bible -- it seems far too simplistic, and one course in comparative religion in college destroyed my belief in the "Bible as literal word of God," seeing instead that the overlays of prior religions, pagan holidays and deities, and the intentional selection and rejection of various texts clearly resulted in a fallible, often contradictory, man-made narrative. Indeed, after college I was a pretty firm agnostic, which actually is a much more comfortable place to sit when you don't have to wonder/seriously consider a metaphysical aspect to all the Evil in the world. And yet, I have had several out-of-the-norm experiences that kept/keep nagging at me -- where to put these experiences? Are they just part of a larger but still scientific/materialistic world that just hasn't been fully understood yet? Or is there something more? But if god/force exists -- how can I understand the unbelievable pervasiveness of evil (except by understanding God as demented, God as amoral/dual, or God as powerless/disinterested)? I need some satisfying answers! :)

So the question of metaphysical evil is something I am very interested in right now. Not having much interest until a few years ago, I feel like I am at the very beginning of a very steep learning curve, working my way through various mystical/esoteric belief systems and teachers and trying to read about others' experiences with both good/evil on a metaphysical level. I lean towards esoteric/mystical teachings over the dogmatic/exoteric religions because I too am someone who wants an experiential knowledge/"proof" of the Divine, a gnosis. I would not be satisfied with some book or so-called religious authority telling me what the Divine is.

Of course, my secret fear is that I may meet the Divine if I try too hard, and he/she/it may in fact be the One behind all this unacceptable evil crap afterall. :eek:
 
Entities do mask as other entities. Know what you are talking to or channeling. This stuff is dangerous
 
Entities do mask as other entities. Know what you are talking to or channeling. This stuff is dangerous

And it's not exactly like physical reality where you can get to know someone and judge their character by their own family and friends or maybe hire a private detective to check them out or have law enforcement pull up any criminal records. By what we all get to hear and read in general about the spirit realm or high planes of existence, or whathaveyou is that its all apparently populated by nothing but catfish! lol
 
And it's not exactly like physical reality where you can get to know someone and judge their character by their own family and friends or maybe hire a private detective to check them out or have law enforcement pull up any criminal records. By what we all get to hear and read in general about the spirit realm or high planes of existence, or whathaveyou is that its all apparently populated by nothing but catfish! lol
Mostly catfish,but there are ways to find out that they are who they say they are. I haven't done it yet too dangerous, some people have no problem doing it. This is why I'm sticking to the universe is indifferent philosophy for now, but I believe love expands it all
 
Another thing... how is it that all these hauntings always have an evil frightening intent? Instead of the spirits that throw stuff around and cause damage, or cause ill health, or present themselves in scary visages, where's the opposite (good intentioned) spirits? Like you come home and instead of a mess, your walls were painted that new color you always wanted.... or instead of causing disease or psychological damage, cures what's been ailing you.... or instead of apporting pebbles or water from your ceiling, why not m&m's or chocolate chip cookies for a family to enjoy?? :D
 
Thanks for sharing Laird. Would you be willing to share/further elaborate (or have you already somewhere else on this forum) on your personal experiences with metaphysical evil? I would love to hear more, though I understand it may be too painful and personal.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable sharing the details publicly, but would be willing to share them privately if you like.

I shared my sort of opposite metaphysical experience with "Jesus" on the Beverly Gilmore thread, mainly b/c Beverly was so convinced that the Being she experienced was in fact Jesus, and not just some other entity masquerading as Jesus for her own understanding/comfort. Contrary to Beverly's firm belief, in my own later reflection of my own experience, even though at the time I believed it was "Jesus" (although it was only a light/force and not a formed being), I have come to the conclusion that it was just as likely some other entity/being/force -- or a figment of my own imagination -- as it was actually "Jesus." See:

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threa...w-insight-about-consciousness-350.3839/page-6

(my post is at #107).

Interesting... yes, it is possible in a similar way that my experiences are not as they literally seem to be. My (imperfect) reasoning that this is unlikely is that there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason why good beings would manifest to me in the unpleasant ways that these spirits do, so, either way, I am dealing with at the very least nasty if not genuinely evil entities. I say that this is imperfect reasoning because I can't logically exclude some non-obvious reason why a good being would manifest to me with apparently evil intent.

Like some other posters (and I think yourself) I don't believe in the literal God/Satan of the Bible -- it seems far too simplistic

The problem for me is not so much that the Biblical view is too simplistic as that it seems unreasonable (i.e. the problem of evil). My response to the problem of evil is (ditheistic moral) dualism. This makes sense to me given my experiences with one pole (the negative) of the duality. I have had less experience with the other pole, although I have had a prayer answered when I offered it genuinely (to take away the cravings for alcohol, which, on uttering the prayer, left me immediately, and didn't return for two years).

But if god/force exists -- how can I understand the unbelievable pervasiveness of evil (except by understanding God as demented, God as amoral/dual, or God as powerless/disinterested)?

I go with the "powerless" option, which is not to say God is not extremely powerful, just that His adversary is too.

I need some satisfying answers!

I'm not sure that dualism is totally satisfying - it has its own problems, such as the problem of natural evil (disasters/suffering ) assuming this world was created by a good, if non-omnipotent, God. Perhaps one answer to this problem is that the original wholly good Creation, in which no natural disasters/suffering were present, was corrupted by evil such that they now occur.
 
if what I'm saying is
correct in how I understand it, then where does this thing called evil stem from?

I tend to go along with the hypothesis that we humans actually manifest much of this stuff based on our collective beliefs, ie, the collective unconscious, as it were.

I don't go with that hypothesis, it's all too convenient. "Had an experience of metaphysical evil? Don't worry, you're just projecting". There is too much evidence of the causal power of (evil) spirits for me to be satisfied with such a pat explanation.
 
Hi Philemon, I hope you'll forgive me for responding only to a small part of your post, but I think it's key:

Anyway, is there objective evil? Yeah, I think so.

If there is objective evil, then what is unreasonable about the possibility that there is a most evil being? Call it Satan, Lucifer or the Devil, or call it whatever you like (or let it remain nameless) - but by definition, if evil beings exist, then one of them is the most evil being (unless multiple evil beings are equally most evil).
 
I don't go with that hypothesis, it's all too convenient. "Had an experience of metaphysical evil? Don't worry, you're just projecting". There is too much evidence of the causal power of (evil) spirits for me to be satisfied with such a pat explanation.

Not sure that when speculating on the nature of all things infinite seen and possibly unseen, that any one answer can be looked on as too convenient and pat as opposed to any other.. :)

By the by, when you say 'projecting', did you think that I meant it's all in ones head? if so, not at all. I mean if the big idea that's been talked about for ages that its consciousness that creates reality, then those with said consciousness can also be manifesting these legendary evil incarnates some say torment us..
Ya know, kinda like Morbius and the Krell, lol
 
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